Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: A question
As you all know I am pretty new to the breed and I am reading with interest the discussions throughout the working gundog fraternity regarding tails.
The Brittany of course throws up some interesting additions to the general argument with the natural bob option.
I am still of the belief that working dogs should be docked and I feel it is very bad for the genuinely dual-purpose dogs that people will have to chose between working and showing and I can see the appeal of trying to breed tail-less pups that can continue to do both.
This then brings in my next concern which I would welcome your thoughts on.
Are there other health or behavioural 'problems' linked to stiving to select naturally tail-less pups - I understand the lethal gene problem but is there anything else that may rear its ugly head if we head down the route of the tail (or lack of) being a primary reason for selecting particular matings?
I am not pointing fingers in any directions and I am sure that all responsible breeders will be looking at the whole dog rather than just the vexed question of a tail. I just thought to play devils advocate I guess . _________________ Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.
I think we don't really know is the answer to that question.
I've asked Gay to put something in the newsletter as I want to do a survey on what has happend in the past with tail-less litters. I've asked anyone who has bred or owned a bobtail to give me the registered name of the dam or sire, how many pups were born, were any born malformed or dead, were there any subsequent health problems in teh first few weeks or afterwards.
I will then collate all information I receive and formulate a report on my findings, and publish it in a future newsletter
Annie
If the breeder selects dogs that have had ALL health checks done and, as far as is possible, knows what is behind both the dog/bitch then there shouldn't any more problems than using tailed dogs that have been docked.
Particularly if the so-called lethal gene kills off any deformed pups before they are born.
Jan
The development of the true nature of the lethal gene is not going to be apparent yet...it will only reveal itself in repeated generations of bob to bob to bob with bob to bob to bob...a survey of this nature at this point is not going to reveal any significant findings because docking is just now banned and an adamant use of bob to bob matings has not yet been practised simply because the persuasive factors have had no or little application in the first instance UNTIL NOW. _________________ "...amitie, respect mutuel et amour..."
The first thing that will happen by using only bob to bob parents will be a significant reduction in the gene pool, which will eventually result in a lot more inbreeding of parents. Breeders will need to be vigilant and as Jan says get the health checks done, BUT genes can throw up all sorts of things (some of them not very nice at all) when under pressure.
In answer to your original question Mugi, time will tell. _________________ Home of the canine "Spice Girls" - Spice, Sophie & Kip - and Lou the sheepdog.
I may be absent in mind and body but always addicted to man's best friend.
A dog doesn't care how much you know until he knows how much you care.
.a survey of this nature at this point is not going to reveal any significant findings
Of course it wil!!!!!
It will give us information on which lines carry the bobtail gene, it will let us see which breeders have bred bob to bob and whoich jave bred bob to long. It will be a VERY valuable exercise (providing we can get people to give us the information)and I have had numerous requests to do this.
Annie
Why will bob X bob matings limit the gene pool when there are dogs both here and in France that are not related? We do not seem to inbreed, or for that matter, linebreed much in this country so it will take one hell of a long time to get to the point where our dogs are that inbred. Yes I know the gene pool is very limited in NZ but it does not apply here or in the country of origin. There should be no more problems doing this mating than doing a more conventional mating, and I still don't know how anyone can say there are pups lost before birth when there is no proof as yet.As for genes throwing up all sorts, they thow up some brilliant surprizes as well just look at what we have in the Brittany, and that's mixing 3/4 different sets to start the breed off [without health checks in those days]
Jan
I just cannot get my head around this - every one keeps saying that taillessness is dominant - but if this were the case we would see more bobs than full tails.
Everyone keeps saying that there is a lethal gene which is why no pups are born deformed. how do we know they are deformed if they have been adsorbed in utero?
No model is offered for the production of tail lengths other than full or rumpy. What about the stumpys and partial dock length?
Tt x Tt will give TT, Tt, tT and tt as possible offspring. Cattenach in his experiment using dna testing could find no homozygous TT and postulated that such offspring were absorbed. Tt and tT give bob and tt long tail - so we should expect twice as many bobs as long tails.
However if taillessness was recessive then only tt would give a bob - an F1 cross to a heterozygous Tt (just keeping with the homozygous TT being non viable) would give tT, tt, tt, and Tt so half bob tails. and of course bobs to bobs would give only bobs.
Non of any of this happens So should we look for a different mechanism? masking genes - as used to explain red coat being thrown by black setters? or something along the lines of the argument for saddle markings?
Annie's push for numbers is a great start. The French forum had a similar question asked and the reply was that no one kept records as there was no need; and it required a certain honesty from the breeder.
Perhaps the answer will be found in America - we should all send swabs off to the research lab mentioned earlier in this thread.? _________________ Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk
we should all send swabs off to the research lab mentioned earlier in this thread.?
Yes, that is fine but the site quoted asks for which state you live in - nothing for the UK, so don't they send them here? I have applied but no word as yet!
I'm not just wanting numbers, I am asking names as well, so we can establish lines where the bobs occur; and also numbers of pups born, so we can establish whether this is below or on average for the breed; and also numbers of pups born dead or damaged so we can establish whether there is a health risk; and also future health of the pups, so we can establish if there is a spina bifida element. I can ask further questions but only if I get responses from those who own or have bred bob/short tails. So if anyone knows someone with such please encourage them to give me the information - without information we cannot give information.
Annie
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
.
