Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: Confirmation... joke or not?
In France, all dogs need to have a Confirmation test at one year of age in order to have a " Definitive" Pedigree.
Yesterday I had the biggest surprise in hearing that a puppy I bought in France ( tailless) was confirmable: at 47 cms and with a level bite.
Needless to say, after bitter disappointment as he has excellent bloodlines,I left him behind. Not being able to believe what I heard I rang a judge, specialist in Bretons. Yes, 47 cms is the minimum size and we need a a male to be an " Athlete" .
Today was the first time I put the confirmation test in question.
Being an eternal Optimist, I never saw flaws in the system. I can hear Anne's comments now!!!!
Anyone buying abroad, make sure you have a receipt or agreement stating the purpose of the dog, it does not come cheap anf you'll be ...on your own
This kind of echos a conversation had a the Judging Seminar last week when we were discussing size in relation to other 'faults' at the end of the day.
From my personal perspective I feel size is important but on a UK judging system I can see it is possible for a dog to be awarded a first if an over or under sized dog is the best dog there and it is otherwise correct. I would however have thought that under FCI rules a dog could not be considered "Excellent" as size is very prescriptive within the standard and such a large deviation from the standard surely should rule out that Excellent.
I am toying with the idea of importing in the future (Chase is the priority for the foreseeable time) and I am certainly learning some of the pitfalls!!!! _________________ Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.
47cms is within the standard - JUST, because of that one centimetre tolerance thing they decided a couple of years ago. (da$%ned stupid I say - minimum and maximum heights are there for a reason - why ad a tolerance???) So I suppose they are within their rights to confirm a dog at that height. But unless it is a really slow grower it won't make size. If in a class on its own over here, and no knuckle was visible, one could with-hold or offer a 2nd place instead (Although that would still give a Crufts qualification unless it was a non qualifying class like novice) As for the teeth, it clearly states in both ours and the FCI standard that it should be a scissor bite. I personally wouldn't confirm a level bite. Is it a serious enough fault to with-hold? I think I would. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
Thanks for you opinions. I would like to stipulate that breeding is for the betterment of the breed, so having pups from an undersize dog in this case will" throw" back. Sometimes we wonder why we get what we get in the offspring!!!
Speaking to a high ranking judge, a level bite is accepted. You should check and be able" to put a " match" in between the teeth, what size match, from paper boxes ?( disposable?). And it should also be how the teeth lay.This judge was more bothered about the size issue. It is a working dog.
In my case, the tailless pup has no knuckle left. He is confirmable, he will be able to breed if so wished. His working pedigree is amazing.
If you think about importing, think long and hard and stipulate on paper as proof. Right now, I feel let down and shocked by a Confirmation which seems to mean nothing at all.
I bought a Cirneco for my son, fabulous dog( he is on a full page of the "Our Dogs" supplement with his rabbit. He was pet price , passported, vaccinated, chipped, etc...from a brilliant breeder. He was Top Cirneco here..but...abroad he would be 1 cm too tall and the breeder shows worldwide. Here, we don't get the measuring stick out, so no matter. but abroad, they do.
I guess my pup will not get an " excellent" but he will still go to a working home and be confirmed. He looks like a teddy bear.
Previously I have always imported adults and Patrick Morin had never let me down.
This story of tailless and docking has many, many ramifications
I always thought that most everyone knew that a confirmation exam speaks nothing of the quality of the dog just that it fits within the minimum requirements of the standard.
Anytime one purchases a puppy it is always a risk no matter what you put on a contract. Very few breeders will guarantee that a dog is finishable and even in that sense just because a dog finished a title does not make it a breeding prospect....that is pretty evident in many of the dogs I have seen all aroudn the world.
Lots of dogs have come to North America with Dys. A ratings and are dysplastic at 2 yrs of age. It is mostly due to the wrong age of evaluating that they are not getting past this issue. AND...it depends on which reader was used.
When Dr. Begon is gone I expect one will see some regression in hips for a spell as the other two readers are alot more lenient from the xrays and results I have compaired over the years.
As some keep pushing for excessive short muzzles or too wide a back skull they will be drawing in the genes for more jaw issues. IMO
But that is just a presonal observation and what happens in some of the lines that are bassed on a few pedigrees I have seen so far. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
Goldie, I am an eternal Optimist! I never realised that such a poor quality animal as the one I described could be confirmed. Because it is easy for me to ask, I did and got the fact confirmed. My whole view of the confirmation has changed
Buying adults: yes, of course...But...few breeders will do so in France( I wanted a different bood line) you have to have a fat wallet, which is fine but another But....We need to keep a dog for 7 months in France for the English Passport. At around 5 Euros per day, plus vaccinations, rabies, chip, blood test etc...So that part far outweighs the price of the dog. A lot of money to lose.
Some breeders are very fair, some are not. Hence the trust issue.
Both myself and the good Italian breeder of the " Val di Grossa" bought a couple of dogs which turned out to be too small, he returned his puppy. We both were given a replacement. The breeder did not have to and it was honourable of him to do so. One sure thing:
I shan't be doing that again in a hurry!!!
Yes the system is flawed for sure...good intentions but at the same time
I think too much focus on just "size" can also be a downfall.
Many dogs are confirmed with lots of faults they will never be a show champion but still they can be a field champion with the right heart and training and handling on a minimum of breed traits or hip scores.
That is the way it has been and will be for working type breeds that still focus on both aspects as opposed to the split that has occured in so many breeds into a work type and a show type.
Even if one selected a dog for breeding with all good attributes and used one that was right in the pocket for "size" you can and will have dogs all over the map in that regards unless you are understanding that size is a "threshold" trait, just like seizures, white factor, and dysplasia has shown. Get enough of the additive traits and you increase size or "White color" and breed to a dog carrying minimizing traits you will get decreased size.
What is interesting it may be only 1 tiny strand of "info" missing that gets the dog you are using in the pocket, and then another dog of identical size can just be 1 strand of "info" above the minimum. So what you "see"
externally is not what the dog is actually carrying gene wise. I think that the majority of longtime breeders understand this fact and so do not minimize dogs if they are in the tollerance zone or not. Some like this fact as they can "fix" a problem using dogs with known "additive" or "minimizing" factors. This is why some dogs even small ones consitently throw larger no matter what they are bred too, and some very large dogs seem to only throw small...or why we say sometimes that a line produces bitches or a line produces males of a better quality. And it is up to those seeking breeding stock to "gather" that information so you know what to work with and how to use a particular line of dogs. Especially if one is only looking at a diverse pedigree one should expect a diverse result....
What you may not have heard about is that many dogs are shipped off that are out of their home regulations...those same dogs are used abroad in other programs and the offspring are brought right back in to be used from again. This open registry system is what keeps so much diversity in the breed...in some ways this a very good thing from a health standpoint...and then...a bit disturbing when a trait previously unknown shows up! _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
I have just been told by a senior Brittany specialist judge that a male should be" an athlete". I can see some may forgive " small size" but the whole litter is small. I guess it is about knowing the background dogs.
But with a teeth issue as well? In any case, as we have hares here and shoot them , I want to have my dogs being capable of retrieving them without problems- and to be able to pick them up as well as large cock pheasants. I guess that is a preference????
I am not in genetics, but have done a great deal of observing, and every now and again, we need fresh blood.
All I can say is I am not debating for the hell of it, I have been very lucky with my Keranlouan and had been sold dogs which were " what it said on the tin" !!!!
I must admit i have found nothing wrong with Monet - yes the breeder was a bit 'dodgy' but i cannot fault the dog e.g. nice height, good temperament, no over shot jaw, good hips, fantastic all rounder hpr and a black roan. There again he has 'sound' bloodlines, and i have to thank the breeders of his grandparents and parents for their hard work in maintaining a 'true' EB that is an all rounder
Last edited by sallie on Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
There is your clue...the whole litter is small.
There is no debate...what I am stating is that like dysplasia size is a threshold trait...size like dysplasia is also an environmentally affect
appearance...as you well stated dietary influences do effect what happens to a dog. And just like some lines grow rapidly to full height early on...some lines growth hormones do not even get turned on until later
and hence we see some lines that do a growth spurt well after 1 year of age.
That was the only purpose of my post. Not that one needs to or has to accept anything just what is at play....sometimes understanding the interactions helps one out in the end with consistency.
Do hares weigh over 11 kg in the UK?
In Hawaii and here in the US 18 inch bitches are capable of hauling in a goose or medium turkey off the ground.
And yes in speaking with many field competitors they talk about athleticism not so much in "size" but in lean and mean terms which does help with endurance and ground speed for those of us who like fast and wide ground coverers.
_________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
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