Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Endorsements
You may discuss endorsing puppies on this thread. May I start the ball rolling?
I endorse both dog and bitch puppies. As a KC Accredited Breeder I must inform all buyers of this and it must be written into the Contract of Sale.
When the pups have reached the age of two years my buyers will be invited to let me know their puppy's hip score and their Vet's assessment of their health. At that point if the up is fit and well, and the hips are on or below the current breed average (17 at the moment), and fairly level, I will write to the KC and lift the endorsement. These can ONLY be lifted by the Breeder but it is an inherited action, so my children after me could lift this. At NO time will I lift the endorsement prior to 2 years, even in the case of a misalliance. My buyers are all informed of this. I do not put a restriction on which matings are done, that is up to them, but my buyers all know the lines I use and will be assisted in making a good decision. Only the Breeder will receive notification of the lifting of the endorsement so it is then up to the Breeder to inform the buyer.
Annie
Annie, where endorsements are concerned I feel that once the breeder has taken money for a pup , that pup no longer belongs in any way to the breeder. He or she has no rights over it.
The fact that the breeder has went to the trouble of choosing a stud dog etc. is neither here nor there. The pups new owner should have the right to make that same decision . To deny the purchaser that decision is to say you do not trust him. It is therefor I.M.O. hypocritical to take his money !!! If you do not trust him , do'nt sell him a pup ! Keep the puppies and do without the money.
I will not buy a pup with an endorsement attached. The pup is either mine or it is the breeders. If the breeder wants the pup then the pup should not be up for sale.
Endorsements are for control freaks - if you cannot tolerate losing control then I.M.O. you should not breed puppies.
The Plum _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
"where endorsements are concerned I feel that once the breeder has taken money for a pup , that pup no longer belongs in any way to the breeder. He or she has no rights over it.
"
I didn't say that - read my posts! All I hold endorsements for is for the good of the health of the breed. I do NOT control what the puppy buyer wants to breed them too - all I do is assist with the decision IF they want it. I will lift endorsement IF the dog is pronounced fit and well by their vet and if the hips are good enough.
Regarding the above, obviously the Kennel Club doesn't agree with you or they wouldn't have that option on the litter pack form
Annie
Well Bill, count me in with " the control freaks!!"
I 'll tell you why I endorsed. I had a Falconer who bred one of my bitches very young -at 15 months- she may even have had the pups by then...He lost the KC reg, asked for a second set...which I refused to do.
Found them and so that was that.
Then, at the Falconry fair, a gentleman ( having used my import Gallo de St Thurial) was wondering round trying to " flog" one of his puppies for a silly low price. Yes, maybe it is his right, and yes, you are at liberty not to buy from people like us...Very true. I also don't like finding some of my stud's progeny in rescue or rehoming centres. ( So, now I tattoo as well)
And even worth now, Bill, I ask people who want to use my stud dogs ( usually from France) to endorse their puppies, so that makes me doubly bad. Joanne appears to have the same ethics as myself!!!
Having had dealings and been upset at times with the rescue for 3 years...
I want the least possible " casualties" because at the end of the day.It is the dog that suffers.
If you do the job, do it as best you can?
I am not doing it to be an "ogre" but simply like to communicate and discuss lines etc...about future breeding stock. Forgive me for my sins!
Well, I have 2 dogs with endorsements and 2 without. I knew that the two had endorsements and as such made my choice at the time I handed over my money - I could take the dog/pup I wanted or look elsewhere.
In the first case I wanted to get the dog out of a bad situation and with his subsequent behavioural issues and health issues, even though probably all can be put down to his early nuture (or lack of) I would never breed from him so getting his endorsement lifted would be a moot point.
In the second case, I wanted the pup - I understand the breeder retains the right to lift the endorsement or not at her discretion and after certain requirements have been met. I accepted those conditions at the time of purchase and nothing has changed in my mind - I am glad I have the pup I have.
With the two dogs who aren't endorsed - well Mugi is too old to be considered to use at Stud and as Liz and I know he was very weak on one hip when I got him. That tone built up but as he is now getting less sound I see him rolling the leg more - whether that is a problem with HD, a previous injury or whatever is immaterial and his hip would only be x-rayed if it were to affect health management.
Finally we have the big man, he has no endorsements although his breeder endorsed the rest of the litter. If he had grown up with better feet (his major fault) then he may well have been approached for use but he is a dog not quite up there with the best (although I couldn't have a better deerhound from behaviour and brightness point of view) and although I could use him I won't. Interestingly his 2 proper stud enquiries have been for longdog crosses and as such would not be affected by any endorsement as pups would not be registered anyway! _________________ Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.
Well, Allez is not endorsed(except that I can't flee the country with him but I wouldn't want to leave my beloved Scotland anyway!), but that did not affect my purchase in any way. HE was the dog pup I chose at 3 weeks and that was that. However, had ne not had a 4/3 hip score and be a goodlooking dog as well as, it would seem, a good worker (he is held back by me, nothing else) then I would not have bred from him regardless of whether he had an endorsement of not.
Belle was endorsed which is why her first litter bred by her previous owner cannot be registered nor their progeny. When I took her Joanne said she would lift the endorsement without me even asking.
The point is this is done for Breed health and the health of the dog. It is ridiculous to make a puppy have puppies before they are mature themselves and endorsement may not stop that but if it is made clear to the buyer from the outset it makes them think twice. I don't know anyone stupid enough to go ahead with a mating without having the endorsement lifted first - well I do I suppose, Belle's previous owner
Annie
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: endorsements
If we accept endorsements as a way of ensuring control over breeding issues, what do we do if it generates unregistered litters bearing in mind paragraph 6 in the Brittany Club Code of Conduct?
Is it not better to have as many Brittany's registered as possible?
Not sure what you mean, Jayne? Clause 6 says - to save you all looking for it -
Quote:
Members shall ensure that any stock from which they breed are registered with the Kennel Club
.
If a breeder only breeds from registered stock then that fulfils Clause 6.
Any dog that is bred by them and which is then bred from is not the responsibility of that breeder, it is the reponsibility of the new owner.
A responsible breeder will keep in touch with their buyers and find out if their pup has been bred from or they want to breed from it - an endorsement can be lifted retrospectivley too, so a breeder has the option to lift it if a dog they bred has subsequently been also bred. That is the whole point of the endorsement - it is at the discretion of the Breeder.
Hope that explains it?
Annie
It still boils down to you taking money for an animal from someone whom you do not believe capable of making his own good decisions as to a pups well being. If you do not trust the would be buyer then do not sell him a pup.
I feel too much emphasis is being put on the physical side of things. If an endorsement that does not allow a dog to be bred from is fine by you if a dog does not achieve a satifactory hip score then what about testing it for its mental suitabilties to be a gundog ?
I have bred only from bitches that have done very well in field trials - sometimes in multiple field trials.How many others in this country , on this forum, can say the same? I have done this no matter what breed was involved - I do not breed from stock unproven in the field. Up to present that has meant having pieces of paper signifying trial wins.
If I were to endorse my pups from those litters saying that the buyers could only breed to my say so having won or at least been placed in several trials with the pup I had sold them - how fair would that be ?
I do agree it is better to have a hip testing scheme than nothing at all but surely the same thing applies - for the good of the breed - to mental capabilities in the field and the only "test" of that is with an impartial adjudicator looking on and giving awards - or not - is in field trials. You would not take my word as to the state of a dogs hips or health before cancelling the endorsement, why should I take your word about its working potential ? In both cases the piece of paper from the independent adjudicator should be shown.
How many Brit pups would get sold each year if the sire and dam had to be "trial ability endorsed ?" That would be to the good of the breed but I don't see or even hear of any Brittany breeders doing that ! Folk like me would jump for joy if that were to happen but we all know it's not going to - double standards I think .
A dogs mental abilities for work need tested too but breeding only from trial tested dogs would leave this country very short of Brittanies !
The Plum _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
Is it not better to have as many Brittany's registered as possible?
Forgive me if I've misunderstood this Jayne, but I think you have the same concerns as me. If dogs are to be pets or worked (not trialled) there is nothing to stop breeders from mating a dog and/or bitch with an endorsement, as the progeny need not be registered with the KC. Maybe this is why we are seeing Bringers and Brockers being sold for silly money.
Although I'd never come across endorsements prior to getting into Brittanys I can see the point in placing them on dogs that are going to homes where the knowledge of the breed and its foibles is an unknown quantity. However, it could be argued that some breeders will use it as a way of maintaining a deliberately low availability of dogs.
_________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Join! (free) 
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
finding some of my stud's progeny in rescue or rehoming centres. ( So, now I tattoo as well) 
