The Brittany Forum

Mugi · Bretonnier Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 1304

A comment that Annie made on the thread for the June Training made me think.

How do you keep the dogs focus on you when hunting rather than let the dog go free hunting??

I don't have any magic answers - Mugi was so tuned in to me, even when proving what a good little hunting dog he was - that I never had this to worry about, he knew where I was and what I was doing.

Now Chase was a different proposition but I got a great piece of advice very early on. Bill T advised me I needed to make myself a valuable partner in the hunting game and so I needed to suss out where we would find game before Chase was out. Once I had an idea where pheasants or partridge would be hunkering down I would work Chase onto the game keeping him in fairly close - initially even if I was using the wind incorrectly this worked as we could come across a bird and Chase would be rewarded but more importantly I was in close contact with him so WE found the bird.

As he has matured obviously he now finds the game and sometimes a fair distance from me BUT as he is very steady on the flush I will always rejoin him as he has found a bird and stroke, praise and sometimes treat him too. Not only does this keep him remembering me but it has the added benefit of bringing his natural arousal down and so help me consequently keep him under control the next time he is cast off.

I tend to train more in woodland than open fields as it naturally keeps his range closer to me but now I am more sure of his control I will be opening him up on the fields.

One other thing I do, not sure it helps or not but it seems to. Training is done in a certain way. Always just Chase and I, body language on my part indicates we are working and if we are hunting we drive to the area definitely. Recreational walks are done with company, in areas we are very unlikely to find game and when he is let off he is given a command "Go Play". I do not expect him to ignore a recall whistle but otherwise I encourage him to stay close and interact with the other dogs out so these walks are play orientated but I work to keep focus on me by use of recall and release, possibly a toy etc etc.

Does anyone have other tips to share?
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Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.

Never forgetting Mugi and Freddy

sallie · Guest

YOU HAVE TO WORK AS A TEAM, more importantly you have to train specifically to what you want to 'work' your dog for. For example there is no point to train Monet alone all the time as he needs to be a social dog out shooting, he needs to understand that every bird isn't his and he doesn't encroach on other dogs out on the 'drive' ... he has learnt to work where i say and when i say, because 'out of control' dogs get shot or cause accidents.

You have to learn patience and so does your dog - your dog has to learn that you are the most important person in the world, and for owners its like an uphill struggle to stay on top.

Finally - life for the dog has to be fun too, so incorporate fun into training, remember we don't just go to work we have a social network too and so should your dog.

guy · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:46 am Post subject:

I get the impression Chase does not respect your position as top dog. If I am right then you are not top dog - he is. If you can sort that one out then a lot of other things will sort out.

Does he ever get to understand you are displeased with him?

Someone once pointed out to me that the dog could well see the idea of a partnership as a poor deal - he finds the bird and you let it get away.

Have you ever reversed the way you work him? At the moment you are always wishing to constrain his patterns to fit with local practice - but what if you were to take him somewhere completely new and open and just let him off? My guess is he would find his own 'envelope' to work within. But it may be outside your current comfort zone.
Likewise you keep trying to calm him down - i wonder if there is a plateau to be reached the other side of hyper? When out on a walk does he have a mad 5 mins and then settle down for instance? What would happen when out hunting him if instead of calming him and caressing him you egged him on and on and on? . look here, look in here, now over here. Leave a dummy hidden for him to find.

A paradigm shift.
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Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk

doganjo · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject:

All very interesting stuff but Allez is not interested in me at all when he is off hunting - even if there is no game. He goes long distances - well out of my comfort zone, but obviously not his. I am not fit enough to run after him, nor would I, and he doesn't seem to bother when I go in the opposite direction or hide - and believe me I did ALL that stuff when he was a baby puppy. When he has had a good 15 minute leg stretch - then he comes back and is more controllable. So now I make sure my training areas are secure before I go in. I let him off with the 'go play', then put him back on the lead, walk to another gate to the same area and go in. THEN, he starts to work under control. But you can't do that on a Field Trial or a shoot, can you? Do I just keep on working at it and eventually the penny will drop? I think Guy Wallace suggests letting them off to run off steam first then starting the training session.
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Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

guy · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject:

Mugi · Bretonnier Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 1304

I think you have misunderstood the point of my post Guy.

I don't have a problem with Chase - we work at distances from close, through 30m either side and in front and up to approx 75m either side and in front by about 50m. He does not take the P and he is responsive to me on turn, stop and recall, this can be in the presence of game and/or other dogs. When just left to his own devices and not given direction by me he will run out madly but will soon drop back into a close pattern (not close like the spaniels but running 30m or so from me). Ok, first time Shot Over and he was soooo excited he forgot it but the next day he had learned loads and you could tell.

I do keep dropping back to basics to reinforce but the point of my post was more to ask how others have achieved this partnership.

As I said, with Mugi I didn't need to - and with Chase I am unsure how I have achieved it apart from the close work and making him work to keep in contact by not keep whistling, talking etc and hiding from him - but then rewarding him when he did rejoin me. Of course Mugi also helped here as I often hunted them in tandem when Chase was little.

As for the question about letting him boil over and watch what happens. I worded that bit badly I think. I was meaning while I was gaining control I would stop and praise - now he can flush and although I do join him I usually just send him on. When he put up the Muntjac plus Hare plus Roe on Monday I did calm him before moving off as I didn't want to set him up to fail - that was just too much all at once esp as their were Trail Bikes in the woods (without permission Evil or Very Mad

). He does have mad 5 or 10 minutes - and settles himself, and in the presence of game he is calming himself as he has learned (although I am sure he will forget himself at times) that steadiness is more likely to gain the birdie than running madly all over the place.

I doubt he will ever be as fast and 'on the edge' as Topaz when hunting and maybe we won't do ourselves full justice in the field but I am more than happy with where we are at considering in many ways he is the first dog I have trained for field work (Moo really knew it all and had fab basic manners when I got him).
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Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.

Never forgetting Mugi and Freddy

sallie · Guest

Sue, he should by now be mixing with confident out training with the gun ... he has to learn manners and if you continue to train by yourselves every thing will become 'mine, mine, mine'. I know this as i used to train Monet solo, on his first shoot at 8 months, yes he was sociable, but a spoilt b*** as one of the guns told me. I then reverted to train him within a group of gundogs whilst rough shooting, plus spent days out at the pens. It does depend on what work you want Chase to do - FT, Rough Shooting and Beating are all very different and as long as you are both happy and confident, maturity will follow... he is only 2!

Mugi · Bretonnier Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 1304

Power of the internet gone wrong - he trains in company and has been out on the shoot thrown in the beaters van with any number of dogs. He just goes out without any of my other dogs hence alone in the household sense.

On monday he was in the company of 6 cockers, 3 springers and 3 labs varying from 5 months to 14 yrs. A mix of bitches and dogs and he is fine with all - somewhat circumspect with the keepers dogs - esp his young male lab knows he is boss of the shoot dogs Laughing

.
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Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.

Never forgetting Mugi and Freddy

sallie · Guest

I don't know what it is Sue - perhaps i need new glasses, or am unable to read properly Laughing

Glad that he is mixing with other dogs as long as he doesn't start that high pitch whiney noise working cockers make, luckily Monet is a quiet dog (phew).

Does Piper go out alone or with you and Chase... perhaps you could start some sort of diary for Piper... and yes i know he is not a Brittany, but he is part of your family Wink

doganjo · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject:

[quote="guy"]