The Brittany Forum

Britmania · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: Locked Topics: Tails/No Tails

I am dismayed to see that yet again, the discussion on tails (or lack of tails) has been locked.
Surely, the number of hits both topics have had (and still get since being locked) plus the number of postings involved, shows that plenty of people are interested in this topic and want to express an opinion - or ask questions about it.
This forum is available to all persons worldwide who are interested in the Brittany and just because there are different views on any issue, is not a reason to stop it being discussed.

Let's all continue to be open about the issue of tails (or lack of) in our breed and allow all of us freedom to express an interest or a viewpoint on this topic.

PLEASE let common sense prevail.
_________________
Home of the canine "Spice Girls" - Spice, Sophie & Kip - and Lou the sheepdog.

I may be absent in mind and body but always addicted to man's best friend.

A dog doesn't care how much you know until he knows how much you care.

Victoria · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:59 am Post subject:

Would we not be failing the breed if we did not have such an interest? Thank you, Chris for voicing this, for I can see no reason why the posts should be locked, none whatsoever. Lively debate is healthy and stimulates interest. No matter what, this subject is not going to go away...and if the subject is revisiting taillessness then I would suggest that it is indicative of a need for forum participates to further the discussion.
_________________
"...amitie, respect mutuel et amour..."

Ghilliegumdrop · Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:18 am Post subject:

The topic has been locked temporarily for the committee of the BCGB to discuss the implications of certain things that have been said. Goldie is very well informed BUT she is in America where there are many different and divergent views on many subjects [and some of these create worries where they are not needed]
All of the committee, agree wholeheartedly that tails and/or the lack of them need to be discussed openly and sensibly.
We should all remember that breeding tail X bob and bob X bob has gone on for years without, it seems, meeting any problems so far, so why on earth it should not continue without all this doom and gloom heaven alone knows.
Jan
NOTE This is my own personal view and not necessarily that of the rest of the committee.

Annie · Guest

Victoria · Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:46 am Post subject:

Britmania · Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:28 am Post subject:

It seems to me that this topic (tails and tailessness), like any other health topic on this forum NEEDS TO BE KEPT IN PERSPECTIVE.
Just because we are saying this or that happens/can happen or did happen does not mean YOUR dog (or MINE) will have it or get it!
I think all responsible dog breeders should be familiar at least, with the types of conditions pedigree breeding can induce.
When pedigree breeding any animal, be it sheep, goats, cattle, horses, cats, dogs, chickens or canaries, a breeder should know what they are getting themselves into.
For example, I have a book on dogs which lists inherited eye disorders by breed and inherited diseases other than eye diseases by breed.
The Brittany has 6 eye conditions and 2 other diseases listed - and the Brittany is nowhere near as bad as some of the others, believe me!
If you took it all literally, you would never want to breed pedigree dogs ever again.

The author also points out, quite correctly, that as abnormalities can arise by chance - any breed may be affected by an inherited disorder.

What is important is a defect is not always the fault of the breeder BUT it follows that if a disorder appears by chance and is then inbred or line bred , it will multipy the chances of it occurring again.
If a breeder carries on, not knowing that they have increased the chances of a problem, sooner or later it will surface in a litter.

I firmly believe that to be forewarned is to be forearmed and it is crucial to at least have some knowledge of inherited traits, defects and conditions within the breed - homework,homework,homework!
_________________
Home of the canine "Spice Girls" - Spice, Sophie & Kip - and Lou the sheepdog.

I may be absent in mind and body but always addicted to man's best friend.

A dog doesn't care how much you know until he knows how much you care.

Ghilliegumdrop · Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:22 am Post subject:

Very true Chris, however a friend of mine has a Cavalier which I bred [actually she has two of mine] Rory, who is now 11, developed pancreatic disease when he was 7 and diabetes when he was 81/2. No-one has yet come back and said that any other Cavalier bred by me has developed either of these conditions. This then has appeared by chance, so far as we know. But perhaps someone has a dog that may carry the gene for pancreatitus and is not yet aware of the fact, what then. Rory has, in fact, been castrated but was never used at stud anyway. If he had been then how many pups could there have been before it was discovered that he may have been either dominant or a carrier of this? Do I ring everyone who brought a pup from me and tell them not to breed as there may be a one in a million chance that a pup could have this condition?? Most people just have one litter to keep a pup for themselves, they know nothing about genetics but come and ask the person who bred their pup what dog to use.
I am aware that tail length [unless just the tip is missing] is usually noticable at birth but other things are not and so, in all good faith I could have told them to double up on a faulty gene [if it was there in the first place and not just an accident of birth] thus perpetuating a debilitating illness.
It is not the discussion on tail v bob that is upsetting many people but the fact that they are being blinded by science. Many may understand the basics but not the nitty gritty. This is what we are trying to point out. It's no good scaring the bejesus out of people before we get all of the facts and, at the moment, the facts is that tail X bob and bob X bob breedings have been going on for many years both here and in France with very few known problems.
Embryos are aborted for many reasons one of which is there is not enough room for all the pups to attach to the lining of the womb. This is probaly just as well given that brittanys tend to have reasonably big litters for their size. After all do we want or need litters of 15 -20? Litters of Brittanys don't sell that quickly anyway. There are 5 being advertised at the moment on epupz all,I think, over 3 months. So just imagine how many could end up in rescue if all the eggs shed by the bitch were fertilised, implanted and born. Nature has her own way of sorting things out and perhaps we should be gratefull instead of looking for ways of increasing production in both dog and human.
The fact that it is being said that this, that or the other could happen is the problem, people always seem to imagine the worse scenario whenever something is put in front of them particularly if it is in writing, some thing will jump out at them and bingo we have panic where there is no need. Unfurtunately thats human nature, so may be we could stop the technicalities and write in laymans terms as you suggest,or drop the subject all together for the time being. It could perhaps, be discussed privately FOR THE TIME BEING between who ever wants to carry on with it.
Jan
Note. This is my private opinion and no-one else's.

Britmania · Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject:

Sorry Jan, but I go back to my original point; discussions like this need to be kept in perspective.
As a breeder of several species of animals, I believe it is my duty to do my homework when I am planning a breeding programme for any of them.
As I said before, to be forewarned is forearmed.Only experience will give a person intimate knowledge of a condition which may suddenly arise in one animal, but if you are aware that it COULD arise, then you can do something about it.
I do not for one minute intend to imply that I know it all and would not be so arrogant as to suggest it, but, experience has taught me to be more aware of what can happen when breeding pedigree animals.
_________________
Home of the canine "Spice Girls" - Spice, Sophie & Kip - and Lou the sheepdog.

I may be absent in mind and body but always addicted to man's best friend.

A dog doesn't care how much you know until he knows how much you care.

Ghilliegumdrop · Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:27 am Post subject:

I was not aware that I said the topic shouldn't be discussed just that it may be better to do so in private untill we have all the facts straight.We can then carry on without frightening people who may not have either the expertise or inclination to do more than breed one litter and keep a pup for themself. People will not go and surf the net when they don't know what to look for in the first place and that is why the BCGB are trying to organise a seminar. It's pointless to give people a lot of information and expect them to read and digest scientific papers when they don't know how to interpret what they are looking at. This is not to say that they are not capable of understanding but, it would be better that we are all told by someone capable of explaining [to our face] in good old plain english, and at the same time we can ask questions and get answers and, hopefully, not panic.
I agree with you, do your homework, but, there is only so much homework that any one can do there will always be the one thing that crops up that was not known or expected and that's Mother Nature's way of keeping us on our toes.
Incidentely how can you be forewarned and forearmed when something comes up that has never been there before.......like pancreatitus?? It was not in the 9 generations behind Rory that we know of so how could anyone have predicted it??
Jan

Britmania · Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:33 am Post subject:

Pancreatitis, according to the literature I have is not a genetically based condition. That is, it is not necessarily caused by genes. The reason why this condition happens is not fully understood but there are some known factors that contribute to the onset of the condition: abnormally high fat in the blood,obesity,bacterial or viral infection and trauma (ie injury to the abdomen).
I had a male Border Collie suddenly take ill with acute pancreatits so that is why I now know more about the condition that beforehand. Like your experience,there was no history of the condition in the previous three generations I had bred or in any of the other closely related dogs in his family that I knew.

My arguement is that I personally found it very helpful to read lots of books about my favourite breeds and I made myself familiar with the inherited problems peculiar to them. This , together with reading books on common inherited conditions, like hip dysplasia etc ,then enabled me to make informed judgements in my breeding programme. The internet is a goldmine of information too, so anyone can look up information on any topic they would like to check up on.

_________________
Home of the canine "Spice Girls" - Spice, Sophie & Kip - and Lou the sheepdog.

I may be absent in mind and body but always addicted to man's best friend.

A dog doesn't care how much you know until he knows how much you care.