Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Shooting Times Article
After being on holiday I was trying to catch up with my reading when I came across an article by David Tomlinson in last weeks Shooting Times. I know some of you have had a difference of opinion with him, but I must admit I found the article thought provoking. In particular when he wrote:
"I have spoken to many show gundog judges who have never seen their chosen breed working in the shooting field. How can you possibly judge any animal unless you understand what it was originally bred for?"
I could not help but compare this statement with the details of the selection and training of judges in France that Patricia posted on the forum some months ago. Altough I do not show my dogs I have been known to attend dogs shows and I also have a number of friends who show other gundog breeds and one of the gripes I've heard on a fair number of occasions concerns the performance of non-breed specialist judges. I wondered if a lack of knowledge on the working characteristics of Brittanys (and other breeds) was a contributing factor? I know that the Club runs potential judge's seminars but I am ignorant as to their content. Is there an opportunity for potential judges to see a Brittany at work? or if not is it something that could be built in?
Surely dogs were originally bred to trot round a ring, until some evil people took them out in the cold and wet and made loud noises around them with things called guns
Now where its that emoticon, you know the tongue in cheek one
Hope you had a good holiday, I hear at least one day was a success. _________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
Keith, as a matter of interest I have read the French judges training for fields.
Again, the student judge needs 2 years to be a " student judge". The assessor judge comes from a breed club who in turn reports to CUNCA.( Commission D'utilisation Nationale de Chiens D'arret) Basically an HPR Organisation. The assessor will take the student under his care and that will lasts 2 years.
The Assessor recommends the student to CUNCA where he will be controled on 5 occasions. If 4 of those controls are " positive" then the student will go trough. If only 3 then the student will have to do a further year.
That is a a very short resume but you can get the drift of it!
For the showing side I had pages and pages and translated the relevant bits.
It goes without saying the Assessor has to be of good character and pass his knowledge on etc...
For the shows, it is said ( as I re read it) that the judge must be absolutely familiar with the standard in ALL the breeds he judges,and be able to give a detailed critique. And be accutely aware of the repercussions his judging could do to a breed... Now that is an interesting comment.
If anyone reads Pierre Terran's posts, you will see the emphasis on understanding the head carriage, the gallop of the Breton ...in the field.
Surely dogs were originally bred to trot round a ring, until some evil people took them out in the cold and wet and made loud noises around them with things called guns
Now where its that emoticon, you know the tongue in cheek one
Hope you had a good holiday, I hear at least one day was a success.
That's not a chip on your shoulder is it John? Is this what you were looking for? _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
More like a b$££?y great log. I can't understand why people insist on getting involved in gundog breeds when they have no intention of using their dogs for the purpose that they were originally intended. I hate the thoguht that the brittny could go down the same disasterous path as some of the other gundog breeds that have been ruined by breeders whose only interest is the show ring and the money they can make from breeding _________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
More like a b$££?y great log. I can't understand why people insist on getting involved in gundog breeds when they have no intention of using their dogs for the purpose that they were originally intended. I hate the thoguht that the brittny could go down the same disasterous path as some of the other gundog breeds that have been ruined by breeders whose only interest is the show ring and the money they can make from breeding
Well, I guess I was that person - note I say was.
Basically I have loved Gundogs, (and I would have no other type of dog incidentally) since I was born, having been brought up with my Grandfather's Working Springer - he was out shooting every weekend in season, as well as any time Granda could get away from our Ice Cream factory. I had a cross Lab/Cocker as a pet when I was a youngster and we did obedience and agility together. Sandy and I got into Cockers, after we were married, and thereby gundogs, by accident, when Sandy's boss was emigrating and needed a home for Brandy, and we got involved in showing with our next cocker a very pretty little blue roan, because everyone said she was lovely. We had Show Cockers for a number of years and they couldn't have done a days work even if we'd let them try. When we had a disastrous time a few years later with a raging Cocker we moved on to Brittanys and the first thing Stan said to Sandy was would he give Brett some work. So we went to training classes, and took them hunting in the forests and moors around Aberdeen every day. But the trainers in Aberdeenshire weren't interested in HPRs, still aren't, so we were very much left to our own devices and working in the dark, and we didn't know any shooting people. If we had known then what I know now we might have been working and trialling them by now. But that doesn't make me a bad person because I like gundogs and want to show them, and I don't think you really can generalise in this way. It is not the be all and end all that they have to be taken out with a gun and shot over. If they are getting regular runs at speed through all sorts of cover, and obey basic commands, why can't pet owners have gundogs and show them as a hobby if they want to? I doubt if I would be your faithful treasurer but for my love of showing. So I would honestly ask you to try to understand "why people insist on getting involved in gundog breeds when they have no intention of using their dogs for the purpose that they were originally intended" Because I had no intention whatsoever of working my cockers when I first got them. There can be many and varied reasons why people get involved in any particular breed or group.
I was also fortunate that my second husband, John, became interested in working my Brittanys and took part in Field Trials with our little star, Gigi, but it is only recently that I have taken courage to do likewise.
I would also take issue with the statement
Quote:
the money they can make from breeding
The last litter I had in 2006 awarded me the princely sum of £1 per hour. This time round with half the number of puppies, probably about 50p an hour. Would you work for that, John? I do it because people want puppies from my breeding lines and/or I want a pup myself. Perhaps some of teh big breeders and top show kenels and also puppy farms can make a profit from breeding, but not the dedicated owners like myself. Only a small handful of the 30 or so pups I have bred in 25 years owning Brittanys have gone to non-working homes. I will however admit that next year's Aberdon pup will stand a far better chance of working because of moving house, making and renewing friendships in the shooting scene down here, and increased knowledge of what is required of me. If I have anything to do with it the Brittany will remain DUAL purpose - but it will not be SINGLE purpose and working only!
Annie _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
I am sure you are not the only one thinking that way John. I hope to God the Brittany never goes the way the English Springer went or other breeds. People like the nature of the Gundogs in general, soppy Spaniels etc... Googoo Goldies, easy Labs. I think that is why? Maybe someone will say different?
Fortunately the HPR's are not quite as popular, The Brittany is not that easy and that is why I always thought it to be a good idea to put all the Positive and ...the Negative points on the BCGB web site.
Nothing worth than ending up with the wrong dog for you and both being unhappy( nearly like marriage!)
On the plus point, we have more people interested in working the dogs than a while back and some working orientated enthousiasts on the committee. So that is a very positive side. Also I have had emails of some asking how to join the N&S HPR, as they realise they come from as far as Clacton, Southend etc... Some show people are also trying working tests and spring pointing...
One of my vets told me that one of her breeds, the Bracco, did not have a field trial representation at the time. But an "event" side
My own and personal view is the same as the French, I am not interested in just a SH CH. This is of course, only my feelings.
This actually runs deeper...It has to do with the desire to breed for " selection"...As Bill's favourite topic, " the proof of the pudding is in the eating". You have more chances to have a higher working drive from " tested" parents than the untested who may still come from good lines.
Hence the reason for the scale of values in France...It does not mean the others won't be any good, just that you are putting more odds in your favour by having titles? Yes, No??? Opinions?
By not even attempting to work your "gundog" how will you know if you are breeding poor quality in or not? Unless your dog retrieves how do you find out if it is hardmouthed, if you don't introduce it to shot how do you tell if it's gunshy. If it's never put onto a runner how do you know if it will track one (just a few of the many failings that a breeder could, perhaps unwittingly, be promoting in the gene pool)
_________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
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