Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: "Walking at heel."
The choice of terminology for some simple aspects of dog training can be so confusing. On a thread titled "Basics" I see lots of people confusing "Not pulling on the lead" with "Walking at heel" There is no lead when your dog is walking at heel. That was the whole idea, to free both your hands to enable you so safely carry a loaded gun, carry and then unhood your falcon or whatever else you would need to do. I know a keeper who when hunting with his dogs used to take three couple of pointers, coupled up, to the hill and the only time a lead was used on any of them was to cross roads or at dinnertime, to keep them out of the guns' sandwiches.
I don't know that much about Brittanys but as aficionados of the breed it does little for the reputation of the breed that there a number of Brittany fanciers who are apologists for the breed being untrainable. That is the only interpretation that I can put on such comments as “Brittanys always pull” or to the effect that they want to be there first The other possibility is that these people are working with dogs that aren’t suited to work or they haven’t really done that much work with their chosen breed. I only know two Brittanys and one of them is never on a lead and the other doesn’t pull. At all!
My feeling is that if a dog can’t be made to walk on a lead without pulling it will never walk to heel and if that is the case your discussion should be on how to breed pulling, and maybe other noncompliant traits, out of the breed altogether and as always the tricky part is in doing this without diminishing anything that is considered good in the breed.
Des, we are adressing pet people on here too. Many talk about Brittanys being stubborn. It is the general thought on the French Forum that it is not the case, but the Hunting instinct being strong combined with a usually strong sense of smell.
I personally don't find the breed hard to train, they have their weaknesses, some are far better than others, but that is selection?? I would not have any other breed of HPR, the Brittany is in the right hands a biddable and highly intelligent dog, but it is a bit like driving a sport's car against a saloon. They can and do walk to heel with lead off, it is all down to training, not bloody mindedness.
Now, the more novice owners can find them a handful as they dont behave like a Labrador, having bags of energy in the field.
And how good are those trainers in some obedience classes???
I'm getting ready to run now but, IMO, it is down to the handlers. It seems to me that a lot of people just make excuses and say 'it is because it is a Brittany' - the same thing happens with the retrieving aspect. It is the easiest thing in the world to teach any dog of any breed to pull on the lead. _________________ karen
There are a number of famous working breed enthusiasts who's ideas on how to train their breed would have to be given serious consideration. Tom Brechney GSP's, John Halstead Labs, Ian Openshaw Spaniels, to name but a few. Each of these individuals have probably develpoed a system that will work for the vast majority of dogs but still not every dog.
Stanley Smith offered to give me a Brittany and in the last year a friend has imported two bitches from France and another friend and I are considering a dog from Spain. There is a real chance I will actually become a Betonnier. That's one of the reasons I joined the forum.
You have no idea how much it pains and saddens me that the biggest possible internet resource for the breed I specialise in, Pointers, has a forum entitled "Ultimate aimless drivel and waffle." Enough said? It is 95% show/obedience orientated though and makes no pretentions about even understanding let alone training for work even though they can talk all day about angulation and straight fronts. Whatever they are?
Even the title of this forum " The Brittany Forum" suggests a centre of excellence or at least the knowledge about excellence and how to attain it. This doesn't appear to be born out by the content of some posts. It would be better, I feel, for people to admit that the reason that their dog pulls is that they don't know to teach it otherwise or at least that they aren't prepared to do what is needed to make the dog stop pulling. I'm fairly certain that me, a lead and a wand would lead very quickly to a dog that doesn't pull. It might take a Sunday afternoon. The real secret would be to stop it getting to that stage in the first place but there is a solution for any problem that has been trained in. It is much more difficult if the fault is in the breed, or more probably, the line in the first place.
As stated this website deals with people who do not work their dogs and only want to enjoy a pleasant a walk with the dog not pulling and walking nicely. I would NEVER train anyone to use a wand or stick on their dog unless, like you, know what they are doing, that way leads to a dog who could be shy and put off walking with their human, I have seen it happen with someone who watched a Police dog being trained like that.
I can teach anyone and their dog to walk to heel, sorry - without pulling on the lead - but it takes time and as I stated consistent and persistent training. Many families want everyone to walk the dog and as you know it only takes one to let slip the training and you are back to square 1.
Guy's email was excellent and a basis for anyone to follow.
Des thank you for this interesting post, you have put into words something that I've been mulling over for a number of months, though I believe that it is not a problem found only in Brittanys. I have recently stopped going to a training class because it became blindingly obvious that for the majority of the class the hour on a sunday afternoon was the only training that the dogs were receiving. So when the dog didn't do as it was supposed to, whose fault was it? It is always easier to blame the dog than own up to our own shortcomings, and I'll put my hand up and admit that I'm as bad. It's a good rule of thumb that you only get out what you put in, and this is especially true when working with a gundog. It's all well and good to know how to do something, but taking the time and effort to put theory into practice is another.
Contrary to some I do believe that there is an inherent problem over retrieving in certain lines within the breed. When I got my first Brittanys I already had over 15 years experience of training and shooting over spaniels and labs, yet it took me nearly three years to get one of my Brits to retreive, after a fashion, and I never got my other to retrieve at all. My current young bitch loves retrieving and my older dog who we rescued at 7, now loves a game of fetch. I have not changed my training methods or spent more time on my current dogs so what is the difference? It is generally accepted that it only takes five generations to completely extinguish a trait such as retrieving, therefore the effects can start to be seen within two or three generations. Just one of the reasons I spend so much time studying pedigrees!!
Joanne,
You are 100% correct when you say that consistency is the key to training a dog not to pull, in fact consistency is the key for nearly any task.
The wand is NOT the way to train a dog but it is my way to correct a dog that has effectively been trained to pull by inneffective initial training. I actually use a dressage whip. I put the dog on the left, usually, and every time it goes past my knee I tap it on the nose. Every time. The dog will eventually get fed up and get the message. The reason I use a dressage whip is that it has a consistent action and it is quite long and I can reach a dog when it comes to walking to heel off lead. It also means that I can reach the outer dog if I have four or five dogs out at once. Having five dogs at heel is actually easier than having five on the lead. Eventually the dogs sort out their own pecking order and you will nearly always find them in the same relative position. A dog getting out of position when at heel sorts itself out relatively easily but when they are on the lead you can very quickly end up looking like a May Pole.
It also took me several Brittanys to realise not all were retrievers. We all know they are hunting machines, though their nose qualities can vary.
Having had the 5th generation from one of my bitches, it became clear to me that she simply wanted to please and retrieve and was overjoyed to do it. One of those who would forgive your mistakes and help you along.
Pedigrees do matter as well as ease of training.
Having found the male line from my friend who gives me the best of temperaments, I'll stick with it .
Having had non retrieving Brittanys who are hard, I'll let that line go.
I've been looking, reading and absorbing what i feel I need to (or can), as a novice and I'm sure there is many out there on the sidelines it really is up to the individual to work out what works best for them and their dog. I know I've made many mistakes with Annie (and unfortunately will probably make more) but I've made a committment to do the best I can, I've learnt that life and dogs are a continual learning experience and desire is the most important ingredient to success.
Cheers,
Waldo
I have a Clumber that is one of the best retrievers of a wounded bird that you could ever wish to see but if you shoot a bird dead and he can see it, well you can go and lift it yourself. Is this that the sort of thing you mean when you say won't/didn't retrieve or do you mean literally never picked up anything?
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but, IMO, it is down to the handlers. It seems to me that a lot of people just make excuses and say 'it is because it is a Brittany' - the same thing happens with the retrieving aspect. It is the easiest thing in the world to teach any dog of any breed to pull on the lead.