| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
" Funny" tricoloursLors de la dernière réunion du CEB. plusieurs décisions ont été prises dont celle concernant la robe charbonnée (quelques poils noirs sur un épagneul blanc orange) .A partir du 31 Mars 2009 ils seront éliminés en exposition. Au 1* janvier 2010 ils ne seront plus confirmables. Cette particularité de robe n'étant pas au standard du CEB. From the French Forum... This means that all Brittanys showing Black fringes on ears and overlay of Black elsewhere will be eliminated in shows from the 31st March 2009. From the 1st January , those dogs will no longer be confirmed... That is a major change to the French Standard. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Whereas if one has the 'perfect' tricolour 
Seriously though....this, I presume, will not affect anyone in the UK unless they wish to show their dog in France 
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| doganjo |
Unless someone chooses to push it through at an AGM? | ||||
| Jayne Cutler |
At long last the French Club has confirmed that this colour is not acceptable. There has been so many debates regarding this colour. So at least we have confirmation on this.
Our standard was changed at the last A.G.M regarding the Tri-colour and it's markings. Jayne |
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| Tricky micky |
I agree with Jayne at long last we have the right lead to act on this incorrect colour (overlay ) of coat. | ||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
As I recall, and I am probaly wrong, but I thought that the proposal was to confirm the markings on a 'perfect' tricolour not to condemn the dogs displaying an overlay of black. If I am wrong about this no doubt someone can tell me, otherwise perhaps someone should put forward an amendment at this forthcoming AGM. Proposals should be with Paul by 31st January 
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| Pippa's Pack |
I believe, and like you Jan I may well be wrong, that the change to our breed standard does already affect these dogs as they do not usually have the markings as described.
It is my understanding however that one of the main differences in our standard and the French standard is that we do not actually have any eliminating faults. It would seem likely, however, that it will be treated as a serious fault. I assume this rule will apply to dogs being shown in Ireland where they use the FCI standard. |
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| Patricia |
Yes, Gay, it will apply to Eire.
I know we do not have eliminating faults. But it is good to know what the country of origin does, decides and... bear it in mind ? Ditto with white inside the eye, on the ear, butterfly nose, etc...I know David does take notice... We do not want to go away from the French standard like the Americans have done... I notice the KC is changing many standards. If we had had faults included, would it have helped? I note in France the French Bulldog is not allowed to snore excessively 
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| sallie |
My biggest concern is - what is going to happen to the dogs that are born tri-colour? Will they disappear at birth? it is obvious that these dogs won't be making money so i suspect they will be got rid of sooner rather than later.... You can't stop nature, and this colour will not be able to be bred out.... THIS MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL!!!!
As you all know I am not a show person - i work my dogs - it doesn't matter what colour they are.... I AM SOOOOO B****Y ANGRY that you think it is ok to condemn a dog for its colour! WHAT HAPPENED ABOUT WELFARE?!!!!! |
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| Pippa's Pack |
The points you make are very valid - and were part of the reason why I personally voted against the change to the breed standard. I feel colour is one of the least important factors in the dog's make-up. First and foremost to me is temperament but sadly not everyone agrees. However, bear in mind that only a percentage of the puppies bred go to show homes. As you state, colour does not matter in the working dog nor indeed for any that go to 'pet' homes. You say this colour cannot be bred out. I am not sure if this is correct. It is my understanding that if the only matings were orange/white to orange/white then all the progeny would be orange/white. Perhaps Pat could elaborate on this. We could then end up like America with no black allowed What a sad day it would be if this were to happen. I love the black/white and tricolours. |
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| Mugi |
I have no real idea of the background but my understanding of the colour definition described in my simplistic terms is that there is no fault in a tricolour where each hair is the same colour in a definite pattern distribution but the fault applies where a single strand of fur has a tipping of black giving a sable(?) effect.
Ready to be shot down in flames  .
As for a welfare issue, it only applies to the fact that dogs won't be able to be shown and should not make any differnce to the fact they can be loved and/or worked. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
In some breeds this colouration is described as shaded sable ie; the base coat is sable or golden and the tipping is black. This is nothing like a true black based tricolour where the main colour looks black, similar to Merlin....one of the pups in the photo competition is a shaded dog and is, in fact, Merlin's brother. | ||||
| Lin Dyke |
Variety is the spice of life. They are all Brittanys. We love them in all their colour combinations, surely. | ||||
| doganjo |
That's my understanding too but I can't see anything on the French website to that effect. There is a picture of a sable on the front page of the CEB website |
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| guy |
long article on Brittany coat colour and how it is inherited here
http://www.wyngold-brittanys.com/Brittany%20Color%20Genetics(2).pdf because of the brackets around the 2 the link will not work - copy and paste it into your browser. |
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| guy |
The Americans are doing a pretty good job with 'black' |
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| sallie |
Guy - I understand that the Americans are breeding out a colour ... but statistically we do not know how many blacks and tri-colours are being born... and we all know what happens to unwanted dogs!
Lin - as you say variety is the spice of life - the tri is such a handsome/beautiful looking dog. Pippa - as you said 'First and foremost to me is temperament but sadly not everyone agrees.' ... i whole-heartedly agree with you, this is an important, attractive trait in the Brittany, i have said on here on more than one occassion... Monet is a wonderful, placid and good-natured dog with not a nasty bone in his body. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Sallie.
We are not talking about the black or the tricolours. What they are saying is that orange/white or liver and white dogs born with a black tipping overlay are incorrect. The black and white and the tricoloured dogs, both liver and black, are correct. We shall not be loosing those at all...... nor those with the tipping, in the near future, because it will take a few generations to breed out. If they every manage to do that.. |
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| Patricia |
Don't get so heated
Sue and Jan are correct... The front page of the CEB shows the colour which will no longer be allowed to be shown or confirmed as from next year in France. That is a fact. The Brittany or " Epagneul breton"is a French dog whose standard is rightly...French. We owe it to the French, and as short custodians of the breed ( in our life time) to abide by this. The colour" sable" has been raging for some time on the Yahoo group and to some extent on the French Forum. That is a hair with Orange base with Black tipping. like an overlay. Black ear fringings will not be allowed either. Now, I have had this converstaion with Mieur Bordet before and it needed gentic research. No other HPR has this colouring. He seems to believe the mating of the Liver coated dogs with others may have something to do with the " Sable" or " Charbonne" colouring. I was aware that this was going on as I asked about " tri masks" which are fine. The Tricolour is not beeing " persecuted". Jan has one, I have one, many have them  and the colour is unimportant to me( though I have a penchant for the Black".)
As Gay rightly says ( and we all agree on this one). Temperament is important, not just a kind disposition, but a biddable and amiable tendency to want to please. And be trained for work or whatever. Most of us have not hundred of dogs that they don't live in the house? I certainly want ALL my dogs to live in peace with me, the others, my cats and whoever happens to walk in... With no biddability, no chance of getting that bond to work, do obedience or whatever you lot enjoy out there! But...the reality is; If the French have an alteration in the standard, then it ought to be seriously considered by all other countries. I will say again that the " cotation" of the breeding stock is strict in France. With a point system, hips, results in trials to select Studs-or bitches- conformation all taken into account. Maybe Anne Eissing will tell us also of their criterias to breed from also? No dog which is not confirmed in France can have a "Definitive Pedigree" at one year of age,and be bred from... This is where the faults listed in the Standard come into play. So, the " Sable" will no longer be confirmed. It is only of late that some Brittanys of this colouring appear in shows. I cannot record any in years past, others may confirm this? Patricia[/b] |
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| Victoria |
Further to what you write, Patricia, is the fact that as members of the FCI, NZ, along with France, and others have to abide by their rulings...kind of whether we like or not...  Personally speaking, I praise the committee for taking this stance.
I appreciate the thoughts of others in that really at the end of the day who cares what colour your Breton is...but, as a breeder of various pedigree pure bred animal breeds, leniency on any fault is a fault in itself or perhaps I should say, deviations from the standard acceptances are not correct. |
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| Liz |
I believe we must keep as close as possible to the French standards and I personally welcome what they have said about the sables.
I wouldn't worry too much about what happens with dogs that are not "properly marked" for the show ring. In my other breed, Weimaraners, you will find many "mismarked" dogs live out their lives happily as pets, agility dogs, shooting dogs, and the like. They don't know they're "wrong" and their owners are delighted to have them. |
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| Patricia |
Agree Liz...Hope you are feeling better?
It is not like we don't have many colours to choose from in Brittanys. Liver, Orange, Black, Tricolour, Liver tri, all the roans or Clears of those coats whether you want a Pale Orange, a " Red", a flashy Clear or a dark Roan 
The choice is large 
In France a true " tri" is much favoured, especially by the ladies
My first Brittany in France was a clear liver & White. I now love the Black, having seen Ray Greenwood's gorgeous Joymonds Victoriana many moons ago.... I completely fell for them and still do... So plenty to choose from, but quality and the rest should be the most important factor.... |
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| Jayne Cutler |
Just of interest, the issue is not a new one. In the early 'eighties, I bred an orange and white roan bitch to a liver roan dog and in this litter was one sable coloured puppy. It looked like a liver tri-colour when born but several weeks later it developed the black overlay.
Subsequently, I contacted a French breeder and was informed that the colour does occur and was not correct! They also advised me not to breed from him. He was a lovely dog with a fabulous temperament and went to a good working home. Given that if you look hard enough a fault will be found on virtually every dog, we must attempt to breed as close to the breed standard as possible particularly if we intend to show. If that standard mirrors the French Standard, then so be it. Jayne |
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| Wyngold |
I think the first step for many is to get over the idea that the mis-marked dogs are "Tricolors" they are not. It was a convenient way for some to classify them because they had 3 colors but a tricolor is basically a gene that has 2 (at) genes and 2 (k) or recessive black genes. A "sable" dog has 1 (ay) gene and 2 (k) genes. It is true that a "sable" can on occasion throw a tricolor this means it is of the makeup (ay/at). But the (ay) gene is dominant and will eventually take over the color of tricolor.
If all remembers that the French registration system allows "Titre initial" dogs meaning dogs without a known pedigree to be tested and then confirmed and be entered into the gene pool, it was felt that some of these titre initial dogs may have brought in this contaminant a color that never existed in the breed since its origins. It is only in recent years that this color is starting to multiply, and where some individuals at least in the USA are marketing them as "Rare reverse tricolors". I think that many would try to excuse this pattern as a modified Tricolor but now science has proven that this is not so. For the comittee of the CEB to "unanimously" vote against this color speaks volumes to the dedication they have in protecting the breed from further contamination. And it is a clear way to mandate a more standardized judging process in the future. I think when you all get your Magazine in the spring it will be enlightening. JMHO |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
These are pictures of Merlin's litter brothers and sister showing the shaded sable effect. Not the orange and white bitch below nor the tricolour that's himself
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| sallie |
What a beautiful litter | ||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Somewhere I have a picture of the sire and dam but it's finding them amongst the rest of the photo's 
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| Wyngold |
Jan I sent you a private message in your forum inbox....
Lovey pups! |
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| Patricia |
Goldie...Would you say that mating a Liver with other "normal " Tris" or Blaclk would never reproduce a " Sable"?
Just something Jacques Bordet mentionned before... Is it therefore only due to the " unknown " titre Initial dogs? Who would have an iffusion of something else? I see the Yahoo group is in full swing now as it looks like a few owners/ breeders won't know what to do with their " Sables"... |
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| kandjt |
Time to show my ignorance!! I understand the need for a breed standard and actually do understand the genetics of colour inheritance, but I'm a little confused on how litters with mis-matched puppies are registered. If they do not meet the breed standard, for whatever reason, are they considered as pure pedigree dogs by the Kennel Club? or is it solely up to the breeder?
Keith |
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| Patricia |
Keith, the way the KC works does not recognise " eliminating or serious faults" We are not, like the US, an FCI country. ( so theoritically don't have to abide by the same wording of their standard).
So, we have heard in the past of Brittanys registered as " red and white", or even puppies of other colours from 2 Orange.-who can only produce Orange- You could register a Brit with the white of its blaze inside the eye, a butterfly nose etc..It is up to the judges's then... BUT...In France they have a temporary pedigree until they are confirmed at 1 year of age. Over size, undersize, all serious faults, and the dog would not get its Definitive pedigree and not allowed to be bred. Simple really and effective. It does not deter from people loving them or whatever else...
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| Jayne Cutler |
The English Kennel has always registered all breeds even if the colour is not recognised within the breed standards. They just take your money and don't seem to worry about the colour even if it does not fit the breed standard. I do believe they are now more careful with the wording on the colours and do send the registration back if the colour is not on their database.
At least in this country the tri-colour/sable can still be shown and bred from unlike what is happening in France. It is difficult to understand why has it taken the French Brittany Club such a long time to change the breed standard a) as this colour has always been in the breed and b) as I have already stated from personal experience, some breeders have classed it as unacceptable. I know if I bought a puppy in France and they suddenly changed the standard and had previously been advised that this colour was ok I would not be very happy. Jayne |
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| Liz |
The KC's main interest appears to be getting in money from breeders by registering puppies - or perhaps it's just me being cynical! As Patricia says they will register any colours the breeder puts on the form. Certainly in Weis reputable breeders would not give papers with a mismarked pup.
One thing that judges in the UK should bear in mind is that they are judging by KC rules and to the UK standard so the colour is just one factor to be considered - there are no eliminating faults in the UK. |
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| Wyngold |
[quote="Patricia"]Goldie...Would you say that mating a Liver with other "normal " Tris" or Blaclk would never reproduce a " Sable"?
Just something Jacques Bordet mentionned before... Is it therefore only due to the " unknown " titre Initial dogs? Who would have an iffusion of something else? I see the Yahoo group is in full swing now as it looks like a few owners/ breeders won't know what to do with their " Sables"...[/quote] The only dogs that will genetically NOT produce a sable is a Tricolor (tan point). Or an Orange dog out of two Tricolor parents. The only way to tell is to test breed....and the bulk of the hidden dogs acutally lie with the Orange dogs since an ay/ay-e/e dog is still a sable you just do not see the black hairs since it is suppressed by e/e. The opther problem lies in what is listed on a pedigree as the dog's color. In perusing the internet I find many "Sables" in many countries registered as Liver and White Ie...Irish champions, and several dogs in France. Erroneously Liver is not to blame at all. Liver has nothing at all to do with sable coloration. If you want to test breed your dog to see if it is carrying the pair of genes necessary to produce Tricolors or Sables it will always be to breed a solid color dog to a Tricolor that way when the pups are produced you know if the solid dog is carrying both the (ky) and/or the (at) (ay) genes. keep in mind it takes 2 (ky) genes to see Tricolor or Sable. It takes 2 (at) genes to see tricolor. It only takes 1 (ay) gene to see sable. When you find that a solid dog produces sable you can if it is a mediocre dog remove it fromthe gene pool. If it is otherwise exceptional then one has to plan how to use the dog in order to not produce Sables until slowly it is erradicated from the population. the safest way with orange dog is to just breed to Oranges. Just to make a point about Liver color.... Breeding Liver to Orange is NOT a problem. That is not what makes Sables. In the USA where we do not have any Black in American stock Livers and Oranges are bred routinely and we just do not produce "Brown sables" at all ! This contaminant is only in European lines in the last 20 years. My old Jixy dog who was a Liver had a Titre initial dog in his 4th generation. He never produced a sable bred to Orange, Black tri, Livers, Blacks. He only threw Tricolors and self-colored dogs....he was free of the (ay) gene. Liver is disliked for some reason in France...strangely as it was one of the original colors. Many cannot understand that Liver dogs will have a slightly lighter eye and take much longer for eye pigment to darken at maturity. Yes Liver dogs will throw lighter colored noses on dogs but that is the nature of the color. It is a much less denser pigment than Black it is understandable. I personally think that often too much emphasis is placed on dark noses when the total dog is considered. After all there are many French Champions who did not have dark noses. But this emphasis on dark noses is what drives many to breed Black to Orange and this is where the (ay) gene gets uncovered. Pierre Willems has this pretty much well understood. |
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| Wyngold |
Jan beautiful pup photos....here is an FYI
For your information both parents are carrying (ay/at) genes at the agouti Locus. And one or both parrents are carrying (K/ky) at the Black locus. That is why you got both a Tricolor and Sables and a plain in the same litter. Genetically your Tricolor dog is totally free of the (ay) gene. Unfortunately you do not know if the plain Orange pup is a carrier or not as the black pigment is restricted by (e/e) combination. One could "test breed" the Orange to a Tricolor to see what colors are produced or order a DNA color gene test to see what it carries. Since this Orange pup could be carrying (K/ky) or be (ky/ky) and it could be (ay/at) or (at/at) testing or breeding to a tricolor would indicate what colors it did infact carry since all has been hidden by (e/e). One could permanently supress this pup from producing a "sable" by only breeding it to another (e/e) orange dog. If you test breed the pup to a Tricolor and all the Black or Liver pups are Tricolor then most likely this pup is (at/at) if she produces just one sable along with Tricolors then she is (ay/at). I think that the initial steps taken by the CEB is a good first step that only removes affected, and allows for keeping the majority of genes available to the breed. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Thank you for posting this Goldie, it makes for very interesting reading. | ||||
| Patricia |
This subject has been rumbling on the French Forum too. And for a little while. Some judges didn't care for the colour but I guess altering a standard is not that quick and I don't know how it is all done...
The pigment for the nose has been altered though to accept lighter colourings. I personally like Livers ( My first bitch in France was Liver), but the coat is more difficult to manage and needs stripping because of its texture. Well, in several anyway... Thank you for the interesting explanation. I, for one do not understand genetics  Only the basic stuff...
Having been to the Nationale for many years now, I cannot record seeing " Sables" several years ago. But, there are definitely more of them now... As for the KC standard, I feel it is important to follow the country of origin and keep up with their ways. When reading the FCI standard, and its faults, you can have a very much clearer picture of what the dog should look like or...not. As for colours, a white chest patch on a Gordon Setter or a Rottie is not acceptable, so why not the Black overlay? |
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| doganjo |
Couple of questions
Patricia, maybe you can answer this one - If a UK judge is invited to an FCI compatible country, can he or she eliminate? It won't affect colour this year for me but I wondered about other faults. Goldie - one for you - what would the possible colours be of one of these sables mated to a black and white? and also, there were two sables in a litter of 11 that I had 7 years ago (including Freckles who is a definite orange and white) The litter was out of a liver and white(Ceilidh) by a black (perfectly marked ) tricolour (Flash) I subsequently mated Freckles to another perfectly marked black tricolour and one of that litter was a sable. So is the sable colouring coming from Ceilidh (liver and white) and if so that is very interesting because her parents were both black and white (F Noric and F Madeleine)
All of these sables went to working homes. Annie |
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| Patricia |
Anne, surely if the inviting country is FCI, then you would abide by its standard...And would have to give a critique to each exhibitor.
I am quite sure the country of origin would give the complete guidelines. Like we do here when a Foreign judge has to abide by KC rules.( Non FCI) |
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| Pippa's Pack |
Pat, you are of course correct - judging should be in accordance with the rules of the inviting country. However, in Ireland we do not get a critique routinely although I think you could ask the judge for comments afterwards. Sometimes they give you feedback and sometimes not.
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| doganjo |
That's not what I asked, really. Yes, when judging in an FCI country you should abide by the FCI standard but since we do NOT eliminate is it right to go against our own rules too? |
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| Wyngold |
[quote="doganjo"]Couple of questions
Patricia, maybe you can answer this one - If a UK judge is invited to an FCI compatible country, can he or she eliminate? It won't affect colour this year for me but I wondered about other faults. Goldie - one for you - what would the possible colours be of one of these sables mated to a black and white? and also, there were two sables in a litter of 11 that I had 7 years ago (including Freckles who is a definite orange and white) The litter was out of a liver and white(Ceilidh) by a black (perfectly marked ) tricolour (Flash) I subsequently mated Freckles to another perfectly marked black tricolour and one of that litter was a sable. So is the sable colouring coming from Ceilidh (liver and white) and if so that is very interesting because her parents were both black and white (F Noric and F Madeleine)
All of these sables went to working homes. Annie[/quote] In the USA any foriegn judge is expected to follow a breeds standard so if there is a DQ fault they are expected to DQ it. And note it in the record form. Yes the Liver is the Carrier....there is no way of knowing from which parent or parents she got the (ay) gene. Because both of her parents were plain they each were of the black concentration gene (K/K) or (K/ky). The dominant Black gene (K) prevents Tricolor or Sable from being expressed. So one would have to look at what the parents produced in their lifetime.....and then wonder if the parents were registered by their correct colors to track. If one or both parents had produced a Sable in other litters then they each would be carrying at least 1 (ay) gene. Your Liver bitch if she produced a Tricolor at any time would then be (ay/at) if she has not produced a Tricolor then she could very well be (ay/ay). |
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| Wyngold |
Frankly I would not care what a Sable bred to a Black would produce.
ALL PUPS have the potential of carrying SABLE (ay), especially if the black dog it is bred to is carrying a (ky) gene or has produced a tricolor before. All it takes is the 1 (ay) gene from the Sable dog to produce a sable. In the USA there are already 3 generations of successive sable dogs decending from that Irish Champion, clearly showing how very dominant this gene is over a normal Tricolor. Personally I have refused stud service to someone who had contacted me once before, I even discourage someone wanting to breed a Redhead Tricolor as well. Right now a Red Head is still very much a Tricolor scientist have not been able to show that these dogs have a different gene for this pattern, they suspect like in White spotting there is an unknown modifier that is restricting or extending the patern a bit. They did not find an (ay) gene in redheaded Tri's. So I cannot answer to M. Daniels comments on the forum and it is too technical for me to attempt it in French at this point in time. I have a suspicion of my own in observing dogs..... I am ver wary of lighter or pale Orange dogs as being suspect for a double (ay/ay) carriers. This is from looking at color genetics of other breeds....sure the cream gene can be involved but cream is also a pretty rare gene in the breed...at least in American lines, maybe a bit in European lines with the titre initial program. Creams are usually associated with more hound breeds. As for why it took so long for the french to make sure this gene is stopped??? It is because for so long people kept think it was a form of Tri but science has refuted this completely. And for a while it was pretty scarce....now it seems to be rampant and quickly gaining ground. |
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| Patricia |
Great answers Goldie- as usual-
This colour thing is pretty complicated but it helps to know what colours are in the background. I had asked about the " masks" and had asked Pierre about them. I think they call it " quatre oeillets". Did you mean that by red heads? I am sure to have been told those dogs when bred can reproduce proper" Tris". My male ( orange)- carrying Tri and Black too- mated to a "phantom tri" as you call it ( reg Black) produced some " masks". I believe these are accepted in France( my dog's sister has slightly such markings.) Regarding eliminating faults, this would not be an issue in France as they would not be seen in the ring, having been confirmed and eliminated at 1 year. I would therefore ask the inviting country about such DQ faults, should they arise, and judge accordingly. Also be aware of the Serious faults( written on the FCI standard in English on the CEB site.) As Goldie says, we are getting strong leadership from the Parent club. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
This is a bitch that is owned by one of the trainers at our obedience club. The masking on the head has spread much further over the last year. This bitch is now about three years old. This picture was taken at around 15 months
You can see the orange coming through on top of the head. |
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| Jayne Cutler |
Jan
What a beautiful expression this dog has what breeding is it? Jayne |
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| Patricia |
Yes, what a gorgeous head... 
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
She is by Amber Hawk X Hawkwise Witchcraft and, as you can see, she is Merlin's half sister. Bred by Martin and Sharon Philpott who are club members.
This is a picture of Martin and Sharon's bitch , mother of Merlin's half sister.....as you can see this is where the masking comes from. 
And this is Merlin's half sister in profile 
And this is Merlin's mother.....with and without pups. 
Merlin and sibling posing. 
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| Anne Eissing |
[quote="Patricia"]Don't get so heated
But...the reality is; If the French have an alteration in the standard, then it ought to be seriously considered by all other countries. I will say again that the " cotation" of the breeding stock is strict in France. With a point system, hips, results in trials to select Studs-or bitches- conformation all taken into account. Maybe Anne Eissing will tell us also of their criterias to breed from also? No dog which is not confirmed in France can have a "Definitive Pedigree" at one year of age,and be bred from... This is where the faults listed in the Standard come into play. So, the " Sable" will no longer be confirmed. It is only of late that some Brittanys of this colouring appear in shows. I cannot record any in years past, others may confirm this? Patricia, I can confirm what you´re writing. You are absolutely right. I know the dog on the picture on the CEB-page. Because I like his pedigree I was thinking to mate my bitch with him. In the Livre d´Elevage he was called liver/white and I searched for a liver/white studdog. And he has many CACS, CACIB, Champion de France 2007 ... . But after seeing pictures of him I took another dog. I adore Regis Toulet for his article in the CEB-magazin. This pushed the CEB to make a decision on this colour. I agree with this decision. This colour cannot assigne to the official colours of the standard. And if people wants to breed under the french club under the FCI-Standard they have to accept that this colour is not standard. This doesn´t means that the dogs are not pretty and lovely and do good working. Like Pierre Willems said: A good dog has no colour! |
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| doganjo |
Or as Jan has often said to me - "a good horse is never a bad colour"
As to other countries following the French standard, I don't think our KC accepts negatives - this is why they don't allow a list of eliminating factors. So I don't think the standard can be altered to be the same way as in France. |
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| Wyngold |
[quote="doganjo"]
As to other countries following the French standard, I don't think our KC accepts negatives - this is why they don't allow a list of eliminating factors. So I don't think the standard can be altered to be the same way as in France.[/quote] What is interesting is that Kennel CLubs all over most of the world are goverened by the respective breed clubs representatives under it.... So is the KC a seperate entity with no persons governing it that are actually involved with the breeding of dogs???? Why would breed clubs "choose" not to have eliminating or judgements where faults can prevent a dog from winning???? After all the whole purpose of the competitions is not aobut fun and games but about preservation of a breeds type and use..... Seems to me that if the "Breed Clubs" would FIGHT for such things they would not have the A-R folks dictating their agenda and goals down your throats.....why do not Bred clubs stick together and petition your KC en mass for what you want for your breeds welfare. If you listed entropion as a fault then you are fighting the A-R claim that dog breeders breed all faults into their dogs???? makes total sense to me.... But is seems like the reason you want no Faults is so that you can continue to show "pet quality dogs" that should be neutered anyway. Maybe if you make shows less of a social event and more of what it was intended for Breed improvement in health and function you would be better handling the A-R attacks. Dog folks should instigate TV ads and such to support thier dogs. JMHO[/quote] |
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| Patricia |
I am enjoying this debate
Thank you to Anne and Goldie for their input...Anne, could you possibly describe your Greman system for breeding stock please? Eliminating faults and serious faults: These are in place as the showing of dogs is not just for fun ( no problem with this ) but for the betterment of the breed, and to promote future breeding stock.
After all undershot/ overshot teeth or a monorchid would be penalised? Goldie, you must be aware of the changes in some standards to be made . One being the Bulldog and 18 Councils against so many amendments to their Standard. I admit to being a follower of the French standard, because the breed is French: but it would be the same of any breed of animal I would own. I used to work with Arab horses and am really surprised to see them 16 odd Hands high rather than the plainer and smaller horses I had seen before. Do the Bedouins really have such type of horse now? I believe that, and that is only my way of thinking, had we had faults listed in the standards, maybe the latter would not need alterations? It might be less likely to be left to the interpretation of some all rounders judges? I checked some Standards for some English breeds and their FCI standard. Well, as it is the country of origin they left it as the English one. Why can we not do the same? Surely, as the world becomes smaller,many of us want to show and work our dogs abroad and know that they are of equal quality? to the French... |
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| Victoria |
The breed standard may not list the disqualifying faults etc but surely to goodness the judges training covers these faults on the breeds...if it doesn't then....?????
Point of case; a monorchid or cyptorchid dog in the ring just cos the wording says that the male must have....... isn't going to go up for the sash, is he!!!! The breed standard does not need to list the disqualifying faults...if the animal presented in the ring does not comply with what is written on the breed standard, then it is outside the B/S and therefore should be eliminated from judgement...its that simple!!!!! End of!!!! Judges tend to forget that their position is one of huge responsibility and it behoves them to uphold the Breed Standards to the 't'...oh kay, you might not get to judge at that show again...who cares...you can sleep at night knowing that your judgement was correct and FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED...even at cost to yourself...it takes GUTS and pure passion...I know cos the number of times I have been in this position myself...I WILL NOT TOLERATE ANIMALS IN THE RING WHICH DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE RELEVANT BREED STANDARD...the day I allow my standards to drop is the day I die...I am not a judge to make friends, I am a judge because I have a passion for the breeds and an overiding desire to see the breeds protected, promoted and preserved...no matter the personal 'cost'. I don't give a rats bum what the exhibitors think; I am not judging them. Any rule, law, motion can be amended, rescinded, revoked if there is a big enough voice and committment to see it through... "a squeeky wheel gets oiled...if all the wheels squeek...the wagon gets new ones..." |
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| Anne Eissing |
In Germany the C.B.V. (German brittany club) is a member of the german KC, the VDH, who is member of the F.C.I.. The breeding standard and system is constituted by the C.B.V. who decided to breed on F.C.I. standard like the French system. The C.B.V. organises his own show every year but not under the german KC with official CAC and so on. Because there is only a little interest in showing gundogs in germany the effort for a VDH-Show is too big. In normal years we have only 20 - 25 dogs at the national brittany show. So the club can disposed only a few classes on his own, young and adult, dog and bitches. But the classes will be judged strong under the F.C.I. Standard.
If you want to breed with a brittany in Germany following conditions the dog has to meet: Standard: minimum a "Tres Bon" at the German national show or the French NE, teeth o.k., hips score A or B (C is comparing to France not allowed) Working: TAN or VJP (Test for young dogs) and HZP (a HPR working test), or HZP and VGP. These tests are all hunting test, the owner has to shoot with a gun, so only hunters are allowed to do this working tests. In our club we only have ca. 50 puppies in a year in contrast to 1.500 GSH and 1.000 GWH. A code of the club is to give puppies only to hunters. This should make sure, that the owners will work with the dogs. If you want to hunt with a dog in Germany your dog has to pass a HPR-working test. So 99% of the german brittanys are really working dogs owned by hunters. And the most hunters aren´t interested in showing the dog. The most of them only show the dog if they want to breed with him and only one or two times. It´s a pity I think. So the Club board was really surprised that at the jubilee show in 2008 70 dogs entered! |
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| kandjt |
Thankyou for your replies to my earlier post, I too have enjoyed following this thread. Other than paying to have an entry changed on a database my only contact with the Kennel Club has been through Field Trials where eliminating faults are applied rigorously. I guess I'm not the only one who has travelled miles only to be told to put my lead on within seconds of my first run! In my ignorance I thought the same system applied to showing.
If I have read correctly it is the judges responsibility to ensure that dogs meet the breed standard. Is therefore possible for a non-breed specialist judge to give an award to a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard and are there any safeguards in place to ensure it doesn't happen? I have really enjoyed the discussions on the genetics of the colour inheritance of the Brittany. It never ceases to amaze me on how many dog owners are unaware of genetics, just last year when I was looking for a new lab puppy I contacted the breeder about a litter whose lines I was interested in. Within seconds of receiving the photo I knew that there was something fishy and I didn't follow up my enquiry. Yet, all the puppies were sold and I know 3 of the owners who accepted at face value the pedigree of the puppies. Is there a case for the club to produce a 'Dummies Book of Brittany Genetics'? Keith |
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| doganjo |
This is most definitely NOT the case. Check the facts before you make statements like this! Look at our breed standard - there are faults listed but we do NOT eliminate!(eg Muzzle tapered but not snipy)
Our Kennel Club has standards laid down for all breeds registered in this country and the Breed clubs are consulted, AND a breed club can submit changes for consideration. Even if the faults are not all listed in the standard we teach them to prospective judges at our seminars, and obviously they should not place dogs highly with obvious faults, but we cannot eliminate - that is the only difference. However, in this country we believe in positivity NOT negativity. I WAS trying to explain that fact but got a tirade instead on the quality of our dogs in the UK, I can assure you they are every bit as good as any in other countries and quite possibly better. (IMHO) There are increasing numbers of UK dogs being shown and winning in France. (If I were nearer I would too. My dogs have all been placed 1st by French Judges, so I am sure they would not disgrace me.) Our Breed judges have to pass a Club Seminar, and are certainly knowledgeable, although perhaps some all rounders require additional training, and although we do not eliminate we can with-hold prizes. However, showing is a hobby in our country and as a nation we are considerate and mostly kind to our fellow human beings, and do not insult people by throwing their dogs out of the ring. If a dog had a major fault, of course I would with-hold, but I have only once had to do that in 25 years. The kennel club is our governing body and in the main I respect that! In addition it is paramount that a judge should not 'fault-judge', one must always look for the best in an animal - NOT the worst! Annie |
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| Patricia |
[quote] The breed standard does not need to list the disqualifying faults...
So why does the French standard has them if it is so unnecessary???
At my last show in France, I came across a very nice lady with a biggish bitch...A good " lice" but a fairly big girl. The owner told me that the last judge did not...want to see her. at all. Some of the remarks were made aloud on why the placings: Ohhhhh.... those flews and that loose skin, hummm...we are in agreement, yes? ( Those are IN the Serious faults) That nose is a bit convergent, is there Pointer behind????
Ohhhh....Mieur, your dog is far too fat.etc...I listened with interest. As for size here, remember we need to tell a Ch Show we will measure. Some, without the Confirmation system in place in France, might want to know how much below or over the Standard some dogs might be. I don't find the French system negative at all, and we all know there are good and bad dogs everywhere. As for the winning dogs, do you mean an " Excellent", or the CAC? So far, the dogs placed in France( at the Nationale) interestingly happen to have a French sire...
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| guy |
i rather like the feedback given at continental shows. When in the audience you can understand how the judge is thinking and why they are choosing the dogs they do. Much harder for a judge to suddenly place a dog that doesn't match their previous choices. However they don't spare blushes. If the dog doesn't cut it they just say so. | ||||
| doganjo |
Yes, I am gearing myself up to doing that in May in Oslo - i have been practising on my own dogs. But they DO give me some funny looks
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| Victoria |
[quote="Patricia"]
Patricia, I was not inferring that it is not necessary to list the disqualifying faults...in fact I believe a breed standard should also list faults, and differing from the ideals so that the person gets as concise a mind's view of the animal as possible. But you do not need a breed standard to list disqualifying faults if the animals comply with what is in the breed standard. Annie, our judging here is done on the positives not the negatives just as yours is...if what you are thinking is that I go into the ring with guns blazing you are absolutely wrong...as judges we are also guides...its huge really...I am known as being hard but fair and it is kind of funny how I get more appointments than anyone...I have spent hours after a long day judging talking to newcomers to help them on their way...in fact, I have produced my own little information book to pass to new and old exhibitors...its all part of the job but as I say, non-compliance with the breed standard, anywhere in the world, no matter what breed, is non-compliance and will be penalised...one way or another... |
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| doganjo |
Victoria said -
Wasn't referring to you, Victoria. (nor you Tricia!)
Don't suppose you'd like to pass on your information booklet, would you? Snippets from it might be good for the Newsletter as well if you'd like to? |
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| Patricia |
I think we are all in agreement that we owe it to the exhibitor to be curteous...And take time over puppies, not worry if it is a novice person showing for its first time. To encourage and make sure it is a pleasant experience for both dog and person.
But still to judge a dog with honesty. It is actually what I really like about the British, they are polite and respectful. Both my daughter and I had to laugh at the way some of my fellow French exhibitors looked( even stare!!!) at a bitch coming from the UK... . Not very subtle! The questions are quite blunt like" Do you hunt with this bitch??" , but they are ready to converse and interested straight away in the parentage etc..
As for some judges: They gather you for that CAC and explain, show you, talk about the qualities and their choice of winners. So, we DO understand where he/ she is coming from. And that, I like. Part of the exam I am sure in France, is that they comment aloud on specific dogs. We are all curious. Hence a critique on each animal is of value. If you don't agree, then move on to the next judge or debate afterwards with the judge!!! The whole thing at a show is pretty relaxed. The last 2 I went to were more like an Open show in atmosphere, but still a " Speciale" for Bretons.
Maybe we should start a trend for a Mid day aperitif!!! Who is bringing the cheese straws? |
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| doganjo |
I believe this is expected of me in Norway!
I'm swotting up like mad! 
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| guy |
every dog needs a verbal crit, make notes as you go, then go to the ring secretary and repeat your comments so the form can be filled in - exhibitor gets a copy and club keeps a copy and a copy goes to the national organising association.
No pressure.
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| doganjo |
Not much
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| Patricia |
This is from the CEB web site: Questions and answers.:
Il a maintenant été démontré que le gène qui provoque la robe “fauve charbonné” ne peut être portée que par les sujets orange et blanc, noir et blanc, et marron et blanc. Et il ne peut en aucun cas s’exprimer dans la descendance en première génération de deux parents orange et blanc. Comme pour bon nombre des “points de non-confirmation” définis par le standard de la race, la présence de ce gène n’est pas visible chez les sujets porteurs de robes orange et blanc, ou de robes noir et blanc ou marron et blanc et seule leur descendance trahit sa présence. Que doit alors faire l’éleveur qui voit apparaître des chiots “fauve charbonné” dans une portée ? L’attitude à adopter est exactement la même que celle qu’il aurait en constatant une anomalie dans la dentition ou les testicules de ses chiots, une “oreille dans le blanc”, ou autre, avec cet avantage important de pouvoir déceler l’ “anomalie” pratiquement dès la naissance. It has been demonstrated that the gene responsible for the " Sable" can only be carried by Orange/ white, Black/ white, Liver/ white dogs. And cannot show itself in the first generation from 2 Orange parents. Just like some points of "non confirmation" defined by the Standard of the breed, the presence of the gene is not visible in Orange/white, Black/ white or liver/white coats and only their descendants reveal its presence. What must breeders do when "sable" appear in a litter? The attitude to adopt is exactly the same as those like a defect in teeth, or the testicules of the puppies, an ear" in the white" or other, with the important advantage to be able to detect this anomaly practically from birth. |
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| Wyngold |
[quote="Patricia"]This is from the CEB web site: Questions and answers.:
It has been demonstrated that the gene responsible for the " Sable" can only be carried by Orange/ white, Black/ white, Liver/ white dogs. And cannot show itself in the first generation from 2 Orange parents. Just like some points of "non confirmation" defined by the Standard of the breed, the presence of the gene is not visible in Orange/white, Black/ white or liver/white coats and only their descendants reveal its presence. What must breeders do when "sable" appear in a litter? The attitude to adopt is exactly the same as those like a defect in teeth, or the testicules of the puppies, an ear" in the white" or other, with the important advantage to be able to detect this anomaly practically from birth.[/quote] Exactly....that is why it is so EASY to place brown or black sables as a puppy as "pets" the appearance is so easy to see. AND, if one wanted to "test" breed a NORMAL appearing dog all they would have to do is breed it to a CORRECT TRICOLOR. Breeding what you "think" are non-sables to other colors could produce a SABLE and then you know for sure that one parent IS A SABLE. Breeding it to a "normal" non-tricolor appearing dog could produce a sable as well whereby you know that one dog is not a normal pied but a SABLE. This knowledge is important when breeding Orange dogs since the (ay) gene causes the expression of orange/yellow pigment to its fullest over Black or Liver coloration. |
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| Wyngold |
Elaborateed-
Should you breed what you think are 2 Orange dogs together and in the resulting litter you get a Liver or Black or other colors outside of Orange only.... At least ONE parent IS (E/e) Sable and NOT (e/e) Orange. |
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| gundoglover |
This is an interesting site where the canine genome is being studied for coat colour (among other things): http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html
According to the research on the canine genome at this site, the ay gene is part of the agouti series and produces orange sable. The agouti genes do not affect phaemelanin and so orange dogs that are "ee" do not express the "ay" gene or "at" (tricolour) gene, but can carry these genes through many generations of orange (ee) x orange (ee) matings. The black & livers carry at least one "E" gene (to produce eumelanin, bleached to brown by the "bb" gene in the case of livers). So when a black or a liver is mated to an "ee" orange carrying the "ay" gene, this can produce an "ay E" puppy, that is an orange sable. Edited to add: This is consistent with the Wynngold postings above. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
I have a 'perfect black tricolour' who likes the ladies
Here he is demonstrating how high he can lift his leg
Ghillie is stirring up the green stuff. |
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| doganjo |
Can you explain what you mean by a correct tricolour as there is sometimes a misunderstanding about black tris. If a black tri does not have tan say on the front of the chest does that mean it isn't a correct tricolour? And what about these masked tricolours? I am thinking of a pet one I have seen that looks like an orange and white from the back but has a tri front with a tan face. It looks most peculiar and to be honest I wouldn't give it house/kennel room. I find it quite ugly. But what matters is the genes it carries, if a normal appearing orange and white dog that you aren't sure about perhaps being a sable, is mated to that dog would sables appear in the litter? What colours could you expect from a sable mated to a black. |
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| Patricia |
All this will be covered in the next CEB magazine. failing this, Pierre has always helped out in genetics. He is a great person to ask advice from.
I have quoted the " masks" as being accepted and it is from French say so. Whether you like " masks" or not or " sables" or not, is neither here or there. The French have decided( after long consideration) to ban it as a non recognised coat, and you either go against their decision or...not. The breed standard throughout the 100 years has evolved and has had slight alterations.( Ref: Jean Louvet's book). As for the Black being acceptable again, it was back in 1956, and because in those days, they did not have the technology we have now. They thought it showed " British blood" through the Black colouring
I am sure either Goldie or Pierre will answer the questions. |
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| Wyngold |
Definition of Black/Liver Tricolor is listed in the breed standard....
this is a dog that is at/at, E/?, ky/ky, and either zero or just one copy on the brown locus to show Black, and 2 copies of b to see liver. A tricolor can be Red headed or just have tan "points". If you want to breed Allez (Liver sable) to a black dog you will probably get more Brown & Black overlay sables, since Allez probably has only ky/ky genes to pass on since you see mostly Orange as teh Brown has been restricted to the edges of his ears, and of course a Liver nose. The Black dog is of the make up K/? which is evidenced in its solid Black no tan point or sable pattern. But if it is homozygous for concentration (K/K) then you can have a different outcome. First example K/ky to ky/ky you would get: So you get 50% Black or Liver (depending if the Black dog is hiding Liver) 50% Sable or Tricolor (depending if they have "at" or "ay") Second example K/K to ky/ky you would get: 100% Black or Liver pups in the F1 generation all of them (K/ky) so no expression of Sable or Tri (maybe some light shading the phantom marks or some "rusting" blacks or faded livers). If the Black dog has no sable gene it is at/at and Allez is ay/ay you would get 100% sable pups and no Tricolors. All the pups would be (ay/at) where ay dominates tan point.....some "think" that this combination of ay/at is what creates the red head tricolors but so far this has not been shown to be a fact. "IF" Allez has one tanpoint gene and the Black dog has 2 tanpoint genes you will get a 50/50 split between Tri and sable. "IF" the Black dog and Allez both have one sable and one tanpoint gene then you could get 75% Sables and 25% Tricolor. Keep in mind that in order to "see" sable or tricolor the dog MUST ALSO have 2 copies of the (ky) gene. IF the Black dog only has 1 copy this will also affect your percentages. REMEMBER this is only a statistical number and what you actually get approches these numbers for many many repeated matings to even out the random assortment of gene combinations. Have fun with your colors.... |
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| doganjo |
You presumed I was asking about my own dog, but I was not as it happens, I was not discussing Allez. A French judge has told me what his colour is, and it is not liver sable. I was asking general questions. (Allez has already been bred from and produced pure liver and whites and pure black and whites neither colour with any shading, and no sables, as a matter of interest.) Thank you for all this information though - it is a very interesting subject and my son-in-law, who takes a great deal of interest in my dogs and has extensive knowledge in genetics in humans will be most interested. Annie |
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| Wyngold |
[quote="doganjo"][quote] A French judge has told me what his colour is, and it is not liver sable.
[/quote] Sorry for the assuming you wanted to know about Allez. But Allez IS a LIVER SABLE based on the puppy photos you published. What is nice about Livers and Liver tris is that the liver will easily winter burn and sunburn so blends in much nicely with the tan or orange in the coat so it ALMOST looks uniform but it is not. there is that dark cast with a lighter underlay. Liver sables are (E/?, b/b, ky/ky, ay/?) brown nose vs a "rose/pinkish" nose on a true e/e dog that is homozygous for Liver. All American brittanys are rose/pinkish noses (e/e, b/b) as is in a past France Champion bitch Iris de la Vallee du Boel and her Bro Irun....they are e/e Orange and homozygous Liver and so have Rose "AB-like" colored noses. By the way they were bred by Mr. Gaudin. Black sables are (E/?, 0/?, ky/ky, ay/?) they show Black noses since they do not have 2 copies of the b gene. This is of course easily verifiable with the new available color genetics test available for many different laboratories... He is not banned and your country is not France....and the UK and Ireland has several dogs who are Champions that are sables. I mean the Greens bred that Sable bitch to Far back in 2001, and others before that...they showed their photo album at Soissons of the many "sable" dogs. You just have to realize that until it is changed otherwise the new "game" is to avoid using sables....I don't really care one way or another what anyone else does, I just do what I think is best with the dogs I have, and since I saw my first "sable" have personally avoided them. Enjoy and I am sure that there are many "real geneticists" in the UK that can calculate your color issues. |
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| Patricia |
Check this out...from the French Forum>
Ch 2007. http://capricesdesolmar.free.fr/ulysse.html From 1st january 2010, it all stops. Some judges in France were wondering what to do before... 
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| Wyngold |
Yes I had spoken to Mrs Alvarie when she first had the litter that produced Ch. Ulyses and Utess...
Obviously the Dam Plum was the carrier of Sable as the Tri sire is clean. Ulyses became champion in 2007 and Utess died this past summer. Ulyses is offered for sale now as a hunting dog. And the macIntosh son is also for sale as he is out of the Sable sister Utess. If anyone is heavily affected it is these folks and the fact that they had planned to "specialize" in this unusual color at one point. Utess and Ulyses were registered as Liver and White as babies just as Parknaglos Nightshade is also registered as Liver and they are not. Now in the USA the decendants of Nightshade are registered as Orange and whites so this makes for some hard pedigree tracking for those who want to avoid the color.... |
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| Wyngold |
his is where the dogs are listed for sale now....
http://capricesdesolmar.chiens-de...;ID_ELEVEUR=316&ID_SITE=19447 |
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| doganjo |
Such lovely dogs!
If I ever bred a 'funny' tri I would give papers but let the owners know that an endorsement to prevent registering progeny would be in place, and would not be lifted unless the French changed their standard again. Of the two previous 'funny tris' bred by me (not Allez, nor sired by him, they were from my liver bitch to my correct black tri dog) only one is still alive and still has the endorsement in place - she has also been spayed. To me it is a sensible compromise to use an endorsement - the dogs could then be trialed, but any ensuing pups can't be registered if the endorsement is retained. If no papers are given at all they can't be trialed, and we do need to keep the working side of the breed at the top of our agenda in the UK (and I know trialing isn't the only discipline in working, but we need more Brittanys competing). That way we keep in touch with the standard of the parent country but do not split the breed. I have great faith in French Expert Confirmateurs. They are the guardians of our breed. They have so much better knowledge than anyone else in other countries in the world.
Annie These are some puppy photos I have of Allez 
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size image |
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| Patricia |
" Until the French change their standard"
And when do you think that might be??? Another 50 years, never??? |
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| Jayne Cutler |
I must say I have enjoyed this discussion regarding the sable colour and the genetics. The posts that Goldie has sent have been great in starting to understand why this colour occurs.
I myself had a difficult decision in the early eighties with a litter with one of these sable puppies and I took the advice from a French Breeder at the time and I am so grateful that I took the correct step and did not breed another of this colour. What is interesting and this goes back to Goldie's post explaining the genetics that the litter brother from this one litter who was black & white roan did not produce any sables but did produce liver & white's. We are very lucky in this country as the breed is still small and can trace back to most of the lines where this colour comes from and can avoid it if we wish. Jayne |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
If a dog is castrated or a bitch spayed , what then is the point of them still being endorsed
At the end of the day ours is a french breed and either we want it to stay that way or we intend putting our own interpretation on the breed standard, in which case why have it It was my belief that we were going with the standard of the country of origin not pleasing ourselves just because we didn't agree with them over something ie; colour.
If the breed splits in this country who's fault will it then be.....theirs for doing something we don't agree with or ours for carrying on regardless
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| Jayne Cutler |
Our breed in this country will not split as we all try to breed to the Kennel Club Standard and most of us breed and take advice from the country of origin. After all we must be grateful to the French for parting with their stock to this country and sending us their best bloodlines to work with.
With regard the correct tri-colour it is very difficult to breed this colour with the correct markings all in place. It will be a interesting few years ahead of us all. Jayne |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Apart from Merlin, of course
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| Patricia |
The French CEB is a strong and forever evolving club. The standards are high in the competition dogs and the Champions. The fact the breed is that good is because of those dual purpose standards.
The " Sable" does not exist in any other Continental breed. After all Gordon Setters are not allowed white chests, many other breeds have forbidden colours , many have been banned. I think we should be careful not to go against the country of origin. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Me too Patricia. | ||||
| Wyngold |
Nice that you posted the puppy photos of Allez....
e/e orange pups are never born with liver ear tips or shading on back and hidqtrs. e/e true Orange are born uniformly colored and darken with age usually by the 3rd coat change you have final color, whereas a vivible Sable based pups are born "darker" and lighten with age. If anyone looked at the litter photo sired by Ulyses...there is one pup that looks "Liver" but it is not because its nose was black.....Livers are never born with a "Black" nose like so many in the UK, Ireland, France have been registered as Liver. |
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| Mugi |
I guess the point there is more along the lines of what is the point of going to the trouble of lifting the endorsement .
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| Mugi |
As most of you know I have never bred and so I am learning heaps from reading these posts.
Perhaps I am simplistic but I if we are selecting to breed the best then all aspects of the dog should be taken into consideration. If a specific colour is deemed a fault then we should not look to breed from dogs throwing that colour in the same way we would try to avoid other faults when selecting sires or dams for our litters. I think Annie has a sensible attitude, endorse such pups (perhaps even go as far as offering a contribution towards neutering in the form of a partial refund on confirmation that the dog has been neutered) but still register them with the incorrect colour on the papers as not recognised (I am sure the Blue Weimaraners can be registered but won't be recognised) so they can still compete and enjoy a full and active life if it is the wish of the new owner. |
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| doganjo |
Sometimes I am not very good at getting my point across - Sue has put it down exactly as I intended it. And you are right too about the spaying - this is almost always done after the endorsement so no point in bothering to lift the endorsement, waste of time and effort.
Freckles and her twin were both born with slightly darker ears than their body coat. The twin has produced only orange and white to an orange and white dog. Freckles was mated to a black tri and produced liver tris(correctly marked) and black tris (also correctly marked) I think it is a very complex set of genes and we have covered the 'funny tris' or 'sable' whatever you want to call them, by the changes last year to the breed standard. I would advocate no further change is necessary and that this could be supplemented by the endorsement I suggested. We cannot afford to reduce the number of dogs competing in Field trials in the UK. I just found this - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Horse-Never-Bad-Color/dp/1555661424 |
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| Patricia |
So will we advise the KC that some Brittanys should be registered as " sable"? Sue, are the " Blue" Weimaraners" registered as such?
We have always had great support from Pierre Willems. I am sure he will be pleased to explain the gene if it is needed. We should be thinking not for the individual dog but the breed as a whole
Endorsements are a start. |
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| Mugi |
Patricia - I am certain they can be registered as Blue which is not a recognised colour on the standard so if you understand that it becomes clear that the registration paperwork documents the fault.
I will confirm that with the breed club and KC tomorrow. |
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| guy |
The only people affected by this are those wishing to breed the highest quality dogs - by the definitions of the registering body.
Any one else will just see an orange and white dog with coloured hair tips and will just register it as an orange and white dog with the KC. Without a means of removing the gene from the gene pool what hope is there of ever getting the 'genie' back in the bottle? can an ordinary breeder of a litter be expected to recognise a sable at the time the litter is registered? It certainly gives weight to the French and German method of confirming the dog before breeding rights are granted. As the UK breed club is powerless here then extensive voluntary recording within the breed database could help more informed breeding choices to be made. |
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| Wyngold |
[quote]As the UK breed club is powerless here then extensive voluntary recording within the breed [/quote]
Your club is not "Powerless"... You have the power to Educate far and wide. This means using your national and club publications to educated with photos and schematics of genetics. As a breed club your job is to educate and to make information known through as many channels as one can. So for those involved in the general hunting population make brochures and/or pamphlets avalable at public events (game fairs) about this color and that it should not be used for breeding but still able to hunt. Educate how to register this coloration, educate current judges and new judges. Push to the KC that under current public "Climate" that you want all faults prioritized and stated in your standard....and if for your benefit would prefer that the FCI standard in full be used instead of a synopsis. Use your national magazine to ouline the breed with many photos of correct colors and breed type, stop focusing on "pink/rose" noses when you understand that these noses are only double liver carriers and is not a "fault", but some prefer a warmer look... Educate, educate! |
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| Jayne Cutler |
I do think we need to inform everyone that the French Standard has been changed and as this breed in this country follows the French Standard we will need to educate the people in this breed regarding the colour change.
Maybe the breed club could put a article on the club website regarding the French change. Jayne |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
That sounds like a jolly good idea Goldie. | ||||
| Patricia |
Curtesy of Pierre Willems:
I have a chart of colours if anyone wants it with permission to reproduce. giving various colours combinations for the " sable". I will give it for the next newsletter...I agree totally with Jayne. |
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| guy |
how does one interpret this information? | ||||
| Wyngold |
I have the Original Text for the upcomming Magazine of the CEB
Basically the information is the same in my Color genetics article but written in English and using the "new" scientific classifications verses the "older" ones in the CEB Article. The CEB article attempts to keep As for solid colorations and left it on the Agouti locus since that is how the old article was written. This was those that have a hard time of understanding all the changes at once can associate it with the old terminology. So instead of the new article incorporating the fact that Black is on another Locus, will still use B for black and bb for liver. The new article will not cover the new Loci of "K" and the interaction of K to the A genes. The only important chart is the Color table....for possible outcomes, it unfortunately will not tell you which dog is carrying what...only an actual DNA test can do that. But understanding how the gene is expressed will let you know which dogs are infact carriers. The article took several months of contact with geneticists in France and all published scientific journals. |
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| Patricia |
Goldie, Could you possibly post it here? | ||||