| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
A Brittany is not a SpanielI have heard it again..." your dog is not moving fast enough".Is it the latest trend that you have to run with your Brittany ? If the dog is built right, he will break into a gallop or bounce. I would like to put it to the sub committee to send the FCI standard to the judges, we don't have a Spaniel here 
Shows are now far too expensive ??? |
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| guy |
I thought that on a short dog space under the body was at a bit of a premium - hence the gait. Try and move it too fast and it will be inclined to overreach and then so it doesn't clash paws it would be forced to crab.
A judge asking a close coupled square dog to move fast - is this a trick to show up a fault? |
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| Annie as admin |
We cannot do that - it is not the UK standard. Sorry. |
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| Britmania |
In NZ, a copy of the breed standards by group are placed ringside and availiable for judges if they need to check them. I have not seen a judge have a quick look, but I have overheard judges ask the steward questions about the dog in the ring in front of them. Some of the questions have left no doubt in my mind that the person wearing the judges ribbon has no idea at all!!
Which begs the question, how do we exhibitors get the message across that we expect (at the very least) that the judge appointed to do the job properly? As show judges, Annie and Patricia, how do you prepare for a forthcoming appointment? |
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| Annie as admin |
This is not meant to be arrogant. Merely plain statement of fact.
I should not need to prepare, except by watching others judging and then comparing their critiques with my own opinions. This serves purely as a memory jog for me. I have trained as a Championship Judge over a period of years, have served my apprenticeship having been involved in the Breed since its entry into the UK. I know the standard back to front and upside down, I know what a good Brittany should look like, I have been to France a number of times and been an apprentice Judge at the National D'elevage, I have a Merit Judging Diploma as well as the Club Seminar pass with Distinction. I certainly have my preferences, doesn't everyone? Like Patricia I like a rounded bottom on a cobby, short loined dog, within standard, with a correctly propotioned head, well muscled, keen expression, correct angulation front and back and true correct movement, and high ear carriage. I don't try to tweet or squeak to get a dog's ears raised - that is the handlers job or natural. I don't like shaved or hand stripped necks, I prefer the hair on the chest to be thinned out a little and under the tail too. I do not use a measiuring stick - my own leg and my eye tells me the height of a dog. I have no preference as to colour. What I have never had to do is with-hold but I am quite prepared to do so. Undershot jaw is one fault i would do so for, there are others. We are fortunate in the UK that we do not have CCs at every Championship Show (14 sets at the moment) and therefore at least there will be a number of dogs to choose from. We are compelled to with-hold CCs if we do not feel we can sign to say the dog is worthy of being a Champion, but I have only seen the Reserve CC with-held by any judge. I have to admit I would be reluctant to award a CC if there was only one dog, but then that would never happen in the UK because of the KC regulations regarding allocation of CCs. Annie |
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| Liz |
I'm not a championship show judge yet, but I have judged Weimaraners for over 20 years and Brits for around 10. How do I prepare for judging? The night before the show I read through the breed standards for any breeds I'm down to judge. I've passed the Judging Diploma and have passed the breed seminars (with credit) for both these breeds. When I'm asked to judge other breeds I try and find out as much as I can about them before going in the ring - where possible by going to their own breed seminars.
I get a feeling that a lot of the all rounders just take on other breeds to add numbers to their CV rather than any real interest in them. |
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| Patricia |
Anne's comments apply too for me.( apprenticeship, exams , distinction, assessor etc...etc...)
I don't need to read the standard, and if I did it would not be the KC one. It is too shallow-for me- 
I have been in the ring with French judges 3 times and also in America where I helped Mieur Bordet explain the evolution of the varying standards since its origins. I communicate regularly with the French and check, double check on everything which I need to confirm to myself. I am lucky than being French, I have a good supply of breeders's opinions too 
I like to "digest" Brittanys. Every angle, every facet. and follow especially the French standard in my head. Size is important too. I am not really too fussed about a dog being like a robot in the ring, and I don't like the idea of a showmanship exercise or rincraft class. Yes,of course you need a to see the correct movement... I also hate such words as " not enthousiastic" or lacked sparkle" or...even better...would rather be working....Well, that is obvious for any dog who works  It can ve boring. But we are judging construction.
As for judging other breeds. I don't wish too. I don't want to do wrong by exhibitors if I don't know their breed inside out. So I would not do it. I do companion dog shows. Thse are fun. But I certainly read the standard. If I had to check it in the ring, I would die of embarrassment!!!
Patricia
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| guy |
For the benefit of forum readers would someone please explain the system as it is managed by the KC.
Patricia - could you explain the apprenticeship and route to judging for the French. ( I know you have mentioned it elsewhere but it would be great to have the two systems near each other for the benefit of those who read this thread in the future. Victoria or Britmania, perhaps you would also write up the route a judge needs to take to award a championship certificate or its equivalent. Anyone in any other part of the world, weather judging to their own standard or FCI would you write up your requirements as well. AKC UKC anyone? |
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| Patricia |
Guy, The French way of judging and the apprenticeship is in the Year book( I had translated it a few years ago) and it is very lenghty...
To go in the ring with the French, I asked and put it in writing to the President. That is of course, for judges wishing to learn further. I will go as far as saying it is necessary to see the French judging at a Nationale. As well as the progeny classes being exhibited. What I like is the grading system too. You can have several " excellent" and "Tres bon", " "Bon" or" unsufficient" Only 4 dogs will get placed and the CAC will be awarded for the Orange and Other colours separately. All firsts in their class compete for the CAC. A dog under 15 month old cannot be awarded it. The French system involves " assessments" in the ring with an experienced judge for a period I think of 3 years. You also have written and Oral exams- important- on conformation, bone structure etc... This is at the vet school. |
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| Annie as admin |
I have plenty of copies of the Year book left if anyone wants one - we have mad a profit so all surplus stock now reduced to £6 including p&p |
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| Britmania |
Thank you for answering my question ladies, this is very interesting as your GB/ French systems are quite different to ours.
Have a look at the NZKC website: www.nzkc.org.nz A menu is on the left hand side of the home page, click on "Shows and Judging" and a sub menu pops up - click on "Judging". This gives you a step-by-step guide to what is required for a NZ resident to be able to judge shows. Generally, those interested in show judging must start off as a steward and keep a record of their stewarding appointments.They then go on to the Aspiring Judges panel ( after being approved by the NZKC Executive to do so) - and so on up the ladder. The Judges Association hold regular seminars for judges and invite a reputable breeder along to a featured breed night. We have been to two GSP ones and three Border Collie ones, plus did a Brittany one back in 2006 - when Gaston and Kip's litter were about six months old. It was as a direct result of our Brittany seminar that the NZ breed standard was reviewed and brought up to date. Chris |
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| guy |
Could I rephrase the question a bit.
If one wished to become a breed judge now (say someone who has just started in the breed ) what is the route and how long would it take to become a Championship judge? |
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| Annie as admin |
OK - to become a Breed Judge
Firstly, look at the Criteria for the lowest list - 'C' Breed Specialist as on the Website
So Guy, as you have had Brittanys for three years(Topaz being three in January), as soon as you have downloaded and sent in the form and been accepted by the Committee you can go on the 'C' list, although preference would be given to those who had passed a Breed Seminar - next one next year - Bosbury Parish Hall, wherever that is  Then when you are on the C list you have to wait to be asked to judge the breed and build up dogs judged and classes. At the same time you need to bone up on the KC regulations and try that exam, and also start stewarding at shows - at least 12 are required when moving up to the A list I believe, but not before then.
Once you have the requirement of seminar, classes, dogs you may then proceed to the B list and so on. So to paraphrase - do some stewarding, learn the KC rules & regs, pass a seminar exam, get asked to judge and hope you do a good enough job to be asked by others. The other route is to know the right people who will get you appointments. Unfortunately I've had to do it the hard way - climbing the ladder
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| guy |
I wasn't looking for the info for me - but so we as readers could see the difference in approach in different countries. | ||
| Annie as admin |
Yes, I know but I thought using you as an example would be useful as a guide on how to go about it. Hope you didn't mind
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| guy |
no problem with that 
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| Britmania |
To be a NZ show judge tomorrow, you would have to meet the following criteria:
Bred dogs for a minimum 3 years Exhibited dogs 6 years Be an active member in clubs affiliated to NZKC Have stewarded 10 times (5 at championship shows and 5 at open shows) Be approved by the NZKC Executive Council This would get you onto the Aspiring Judges panel. To be promoted to the Ribbon Parade Panel, you would need to meet the following criteria: Obtain 50 Ribbon Parade credits in the preceeding year (Credits are explained later) Sit and pass a written exam on NZKC rules & regulations and the anatomy of the dog. Be examined at an actual ribbon parade conducted by a local branch of the Judges assn and obtain a favourable report from an independant assesor Be approved by the Executive for promotion to the RP panel. To advance to the Open Show panel involves: To be on the Ribbon Parade panel for at least 2 years Judged 10 ribbon parades Enmassed 50 open show credits Sit and pass written exams on NZKC rules & regs, show regulations plus anatomy of the dog. Once on the open show panel, to get to championship level can be either as a specialist breed judge, or more common , a first group championship judge. To be a first group judge (say group 3, Gundogs) requires: Be on the Open Show panel for at least 2 years Judged the group (ie group 3) 5 times at ribbon parades and open shows Obtained 50 group credits Passed the necessary written and practical exams for the group- the written part includes 80 questions on breed standards of the group Be approved by the Executive Council To get to the Specialist Breed Championship Judge Panel criteria is: (eg to be able to judge just Brittany's) Justification - this takes in to consideration the number of exhibitors and specimens of the breed being shown Involvement with all aspects of the breed for at least 12 years including breeding,exhibiting and club administration Demonstrated status and reputation within the breed Have been appointed to the Open Show panel for at least 2 years Accumulated 50 Specialist breed panel credits Sit and pass written and practical exams on the breed Be approved by the Executive Council. To get more championship group panels (ie groups 1,2,4,5,6,&7) involves more of the same, with added stipulations of the number of dogs actually judged - to become an all breeds judge for instance, requires a person to have judged thousands of dogs! CREDITS: This is the value of an authorised activity as set out in the show judges syllabus. Each candidate must keep a record of all stewarding and judging appointments.Attendance at judges workshops,lectures and discussion groups,attendance at kennel visits, preparation of articles on breeds and video based training are some of the categories involved. The higher you go, the more you have to do. It is basically impossible at present for anyone to become a Brittany specialist judge - we can not meet the justification criteria of the number of exhibitors and specimens in the showring. Similarly, we have no specialist breed club to support entries. Chris |
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| Annie as admin |
That is a very detailed explanation, Chris, thank you for that. So does the NZKC set the criteria as being the same for every breed regardless of numbers? In the UK our KC sets out a general criteria and each Breed Club adjusts it to suit the numerics of their own breed to a certain extent. It then goes to the KC for approval. (For numbers of dogs and classes judged, I mean.)
I can see a basic need for your KC to have foreign Breed Judges, but do they invite country of origin judges - for instance, French, in our case? Or are there just not enough Brittany in NZ for it to be worthwhile? Do they do it for other numerically stronger breeds? I suppose it comes down to money in the long run. Annie |
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| Britmania |
Thanks for your comments Annie.
The critria for a specialist judge is applied the same, regardless of breed or the numbers involved. For instance, it would be a lot easier to get for the other breeds we were involved in, simply because there are plenty of Border Collies and GSP's here. All overseas judges are treated the same by NZKC regardless of whether they are country of origin for a breed or not, same as numerically stronger breeds do not have any advantages, unless there is a specialist breed club. For example, the german shepherd clubs regularly appoint overseas specialist judges to grade their dogs.There are lots of German shepherds in NZ! A big difference we have here that I think is not good is no requirement by NZKC for ALL judges to critique dogs they judge. In my experience, written critiques have only been occasionally done at Collie shows and GSP shows. I have had the odd informal verbal critique at all breeds shows, but in general, unless a CC is declined, no judge is required to justify their decisions. I think this is what fosters the belief that the judge has "judged the other end of the lead", is a "face judge", "saw that dog win yesterday/last week/on TV" and so on. It allows for the judges integrity to be called into question by disgruntled exhibitors. I first learnt of how the FCI system works, when we had a Border Collie we bred being exhibited in Finland and around Europe on a regular basis. The system of a brief critique each time is a perfect way to get a consensus of opinions on how good or bad your dog really is. This is also where the field trial system (or any scoring system) has an advantage here. At least after my dog has run in a trial, I know EXACTLY where the points came off as the judges card is available for a competitor to read - once the entire trial is finished and the results posted on a board. |
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