A question

Mugi · A question

As you all know I am pretty new to the breed and I am reading with interest the discussions throughout the working gundog fraternity regarding tails.

The Brittany of course throws up some interesting additions to the general argument with the natural bob option.

I am still of the belief that working dogs should be docked and I feel it is very bad for the genuinely dual-purpose dogs that people will have to chose between working and showing and I can see the appeal of trying to breed tail-less pups that can continue to do both.

This then brings in my next concern which I would welcome your thoughts on.

Are there other health or behavioural 'problems' linked to stiving to select naturally tail-less pups - I understand the lethal gene problem but is there anything else that may rear its ugly head if we head down the route of the tail (or lack of) being a primary reason for selecting particular matings?

I am not pointing fingers in any directions and I am sure that all responsible breeders will be looking at the whole dog rather than just the vexed question of a tail. I just thought to play devils advocate I guess Wink

.

Annie as admin

I think we don't really know is the answer to that question.
I've asked Gay to put something in the newsletter as I want to do a survey on what has happend in the past with tail-less litters. I've asked anyone who has bred or owned a bobtail to give me the registered name of the dam or sire, how many pups were born, were any born malformed or dead, were there any subsequent health problems in teh first few weeks or afterwards.
I will then collate all information I receive and formulate a report on my findings, and publish it in a future newsletter
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

If the breeder selects dogs that have had ALL health checks done and, as far as is possible, knows what is behind both the dog/bitch then there shouldn't any more problems than using tailed dogs that have been docked.
Particularly if the so-called lethal gene kills off any deformed pups before they are born.
Jan

Victoria

The development of the true nature of the lethal gene is not going to be apparent yet...it will only reveal itself in repeated generations of bob to bob to bob with bob to bob to bob...a survey of this nature at this point is not going to reveal any significant findings because docking is just now banned and an adamant use of bob to bob matings has not yet been practised simply because the persuasive factors have had no or little application in the first instance UNTIL NOW.

Britmania

The first thing that will happen by using only bob to bob parents will be a significant reduction in the gene pool, which will eventually result in a lot more inbreeding of parents. Breeders will need to be vigilant and as Jan says get the health checks done, BUT genes can throw up all sorts of things (some of them not very nice at all) when under pressure.

In answer to your original question Mugi, time will tell.

Annie as admin

Ghilliegumdrop

Why will bob X bob matings limit the gene pool when there are dogs both here and in France that are not related? We do not seem to inbreed, or for that matter, linebreed much in this country so it will take one hell of a long time to get to the point where our dogs are that inbred. Yes I know the gene pool is very limited in NZ but it does not apply here or in the country of origin. There should be no more problems doing this mating than doing a more conventional mating, and I still don't know how anyone can say there are pups lost before birth when there is no proof as yet.As for genes throwing up all sorts, they thow up some brilliant surprizes as well just look at what we have in the Brittany, and that's mixing 3/4 different sets to start the breed off [without health checks in those days]
Jan

guy

I just cannot get my head around this - every one keeps saying that taillessness is dominant - but if this were the case we would see more bobs than full tails.

Everyone keeps saying that there is a lethal gene which is why no pups are born deformed. how do we know they are deformed if they have been adsorbed in utero?

No model is offered for the production of tail lengths other than full or rumpy. What about the stumpys and partial dock length?

Tt x Tt will give TT, Tt, tT and tt as possible offspring. Cattenach in his experiment using dna testing could find no homozygous TT and postulated that such offspring were absorbed. Tt and tT give bob and tt long tail - so we should expect twice as many bobs as long tails.

However if taillessness was recessive then only tt would give a bob - an F1 cross to a heterozygous Tt (just keeping with the homozygous TT being non viable) would give tT, tt, tt, and Tt so half bob tails. and of course bobs to bobs would give only bobs.

Non of any of this happens So should we look for a different mechanism? masking genes - as used to explain red coat being thrown by black setters? or something along the lines of the argument for saddle markings?

Annie's push for numbers is a great start. The French forum had a similar question asked and the reply was that no one kept records as there was no need; and it required a certain honesty from the breeder.

Perhaps the answer will be found in America - we should all send swabs off to the research lab mentioned earlier in this thread.?

Annie as admin

Annie as admin

Victoria

Annie as admin

Yes, I know what Pierre says(he is a good friend of mine) and some others in France say that it is NOT a criteria for choosing a dog. BUT, France is VERY different - they can afford to have all the concerns they want - they have not been forced into this position - YET!!! But believe me, when the time comes (and it will, because there are 'do gooders' in every country and they seem to have the ear of the people in power) they will be searching out bobtails too. Remember, we have plenty of different lines in the UK, so we have a large gene pool compared to yourselves. Plus we are close to France so can source studs over there too - provided they give us the information which they are reluctant to do at the moment, because of these so called 'concerns'.
The database I have started to set up will eventually give us the names of dogs and bitches which own this gene. Nothing ventured, nothing gained - it is necessary!!!!
Annie

Victoria

Annie as admin

You have read this out of context. What I mean is that, at the moment, they do not have the incentive to concern themselves with natural short tails, as they do not have to use that as a selection criteria. This is what I meant by France being able to afford to have concerns about using the information on bobtails as a criteria. Thus the information required by UK breeders has only been forthcoming spasmodically. Pierre has been most helpful, but we could do with more assistance from other French breeders. A fellow Club member has tried to source bobtailed studs and been told they don't have the information as it should not be used as a selection criteria. Well I'm afraiad they are wrong! When the time comes, and I am sure it will, they WILL have to do the same as we are doing which is trying to find out the mechanisms of the bobtail, the frequency of it, and where it occurs, as well as any possible health issues related to the bobtail gene.
I do not have a blinkered view of French breeders, I'm afraid, they have axes to grind as we all have to some extent - they don't always have the same passions about this wonderful breed as some of us outwith France have.
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

If the health checks are done and graded good the next criteria is type then pedigree AND then bob tail. Providing the bobtailed dog that is chosen meets all the above criteria then there is no reason not to use him/her. If there are two equally good dogs and one has a bobtail then that is the one that will be used in future especially if the person breeding prefers the Brittany without the tail. The trick is to pick the best without being influenced by the tail or lack of it.
Jan

Annie as admin

And GUESS why I bought Allez Question

guy

don't forget ability - it was Pouchain I think who said you don't choose a hunting dog by the length of its tail.

Ghilliegumdrop

Yes but not everyone wishes to 'work' their dog for what it was bred.
Perhaps a better word could be intelligence?
Jan

Annie as admin

The very first dog shows were started by Terrier men - 'my dog is a better ratter than yours' - 'ok prove it', so they did, 'and my dog is better looking than yours' - 'ok prove it' so they did. And then Bingo we had Crufts!

Victoria

What form will the survey take. The committee has to ratify it at a duly constituted meeting to allow the Club to take ownership of the information gained as result of participants' response, does it not?

johnhod

Victoria

Annie as admin

No, Victoria, I wasn't getting at you, but some people, both in and out of France, think that it is only the French Judges and Breeders who can decide what is best for our Breed. That just isn't true and there are many very dedicated breeders and judges outwith France.(I would consider myself one of these) I was told recently that one French Judge was so experienced that he did not need to have 'hands on' a class of dogs to decide which was the best - what utter rot! Coats can hide many faults if they are sculptured. You MUST go over a dog to feel under that coat even with a lesser coat as ours! This is the prejudice we are up against. This judge apparently did not think there were any outstanding dogs at Crufts - again utter rot, I KNOW there were some! I went over them! And this judge has considerable experience and supposed knowledge and expertise.
The axes they have to grind are just that - some of them think no-one else can be custodians of the breed, and a number of them think that we should not even consider tail-less-ness as a criteria. What I meant was that in the UK at least we MUST consider it., and that docking bans will come into a number of other countries, including France, in the not very distant future. There are mutterings already.............

So if I hurt your feelings there was no intention, believe me, and I apologise if it came across that way.
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

You are doing IT again. Don't.
Well, if the so called french judge thought there were no outstanding dogs at Cruft's that wasn't very polite to Patricia was it? Considering that she had given at least one of the dogs present a CC and BOB at the Brittany Club Championship Show. Is he then inferring that she is not a good judge?Because I, for one, would contest that.
Jan

Britmania

When all said and done, this tailless to tailess issue is really only related to maintaining the bob look in the showring.
Given the small numbers of Brittany's shown, in proportion to the whole population in countries where the docking ban exists,dont you think that in the interests of the breed as a WHOLE, it would be easier to accept that longtailed and natural bobs are entitled to the best genetic diversity available in their bloodlines.
For those who wish to show bobtail dogs, carry on with your breeding programmes and the rest of us can carry on using the best of the entire genetic pool currently available.

Ghilliegumdrop

True Chris, but what if the best dog available has a bob tail?
Jan

Annie as admin

Annie as admin

guy

I have to agree with Britmania - bobtails are a showing issue. for working there is nothing to stop you docking them - as is currently done. To show short tailed you need the bob, to work you can cut off the tail or have an natural bob.

The French are past masters of making legislation and not adhering to it (he says repeating hearsay and without foundation to his argument) They will no doubt keep it legitimate to dock tails for working animals and get around the show thing another way - the National and Crufts are not the same after all. The Germans still can dock dogs for working homes.

Britmania

Yes Guy, that IS the point. Working dogs can be long tail,docked and bobtail, so have the entire genetic base of the breed to choose from.

The legislation you have now means that only DOCKED dogs can not be shown doesnt it? My understanding of the Animal Welfare Bill's in England and Scotland as printed in our club Anniversary handbook 2006 is that only dogs with part of an exisiting tail removed by humans for other than medical reasons are banned and therefore can not be exhibited at shows.
Natural Bobtails are exempt aren't they?

If that is so, it is only maintaining the status quo in the showring that is being put forward as a reason for promoting the bobtail to bobtail breeding programme.

Annie as admin

Not true, again. The reason the working fraternity managed to get an exemption is that tails get damaged when working. In other words the WORKING people want short tails. I cannot dock as I l,ive in Scotland but if I lived in England I would want to breed bob/short tails for both working and show homes. Our breed is DUAL purpose or hadn't either of you noticed! Twisted Evil

Annie

Britmania

Given the status of our senior bitch SPICE (of whom you are fully aware Annie),I think your last statement should be withdrawn and an apology forthcoming.

guy

How much quantitative evidence do we have about tail damage? Yes there is no doubt that some tails do get damaged, but how many - do Scandinavian countries suffer from damaged tails? My dog always gets cut ears when hunting but i would not cut them off to protect him.

The breeding of a naturally docked hunting and showing dog is laudable. There is sure to be sufficient genetic material around to not limit the development of them. After all there are a lot of 'poor' specimens in France that would not be suitable for a 'tailed' breeding programme. I suppose the question we need to ask ourselves is how many 'good' dogs are there and of those 'good' dogs how many are bob tails. is the proportion of bobs within the 'good' sufficient to maintain a sufficiently diverse gene pool?

Cattenach has shown us categorically that one can introduce divers elements and line breed them back to type. So in my understanding, bob tail breeders would have no restriction at all to their gene pool - just maybe a longer time to get the desired dog.

Perhaps we also need a definition of dual purpose that we all agree on. One dual champion in thirty years is not a good advert for the idea. is dual purpose to mean that the hunting stock and th eshowing stock will be from identical gene streams rather than becoming specialisms that have been selected from a restricted number of lines?

Britmania

Origin of the bobtail Brittany

In the early days of origin of the Brittany, a litter of puppies were born.
One of the litter for some unknown reason, was born without a tail. The breeder was unable to sell this pup because no one liked the bob tail, but he took a liking to the pup and kept it.
This pup turned out to be an exceptional hunter and many other hunters wanted a pup from this dog. When the dog was finally bred from, some of its pups were born with bob tails and because hunters wanted a pup that looked like the renowned parent, the breeder cut off the tails of the non bobtailed pups - and so the fashion of the docked/bob tailed Brittany was started.
Eventually, as luck would have it,the best hunting Brittany's in the region all happened to have "short tails".
Then, centuries later, along came the conformation judging which required a standard to judge the dogs to - and believing that the best dogs in Brittany all had short tails,the breed standard was adopted which stated that the tail should be docked or natural bob tail.
And so the legend of the modern day Brittany was begun.

Truth or Fiction ??

Barry

Ghilliegumdrop

Certain amount of truth Chris, the bit about 'centuries' is a slight exaggeration as the breed was only noticed at the beginning of the 1900's when a Major in the cavalry wrote of the small spaniels he saw many of which had either short tails or no tails at all. The first mention of 'Chien de Bretagne' was made in 1910 by M Le Comte Le Conteux de Canteleu when he drew up his chart of the French breeds. This is according to Richard Beauchamp in his book the Brittany.
Jan
Tails were orginally docked [in any breed] to prevent rabies as it was thought to prevent the dog from contracting the rabies virus.

Ghilliegumdrop

My blasted edit button has gone AGAIN. Evil or Very Mad

Annie as admin

No apology required IMHO

By "Dual purpose" I meant a breed that not only is an excellent worker but also can be shown to success. I guess that includes many of the Brittanys owned by members of this Forum.
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

As I have asked before, if we have two dogs to chose from, BOTH of equal merit one a bob tail and the other with a tail, which would be chosen?
Jan

johnhod

I suppose it would depend on who WE are, where we (in Scotland for instance you may choose the bobtail if you want to work it and can't get it docked), what we want from the dog in question and which one we like best.

It will always be a personal choice, though not always for any reason that's logical to anyone else. Has no one else ever chosen a dog just because they liked it, without knowing why?
[/b]

Annie as admin

Nope, if you know the breed and after you have seen a number of litters at various stages you will have a pretty good idea why you like one puppy and not another. You can have a fair idea as they are born as to the differences between one and another, but need to have seen a few different litters to be able to see the differences between a pup of one litter and a pup of another. Just comes with experience and you're not always right. I usually check head shape, high ear placement and short body length as they are born as that doesn't usually change. So same applies when choosing an 8 week old.
Annie

Victoria

Johnhod, some people have the most bizarre way of picking puppies; one guy wanting a puppy from me suspended a crystal above the candidates' head; which way it swung determined his choice; luckily none of them worked! I heard later that he was very very hard on dogs so I was delighted! They did go to wonderful homes.
I believe puppy choice is a combination of many factors...some deliberate some not!!

johnhod

Annie

This is fine if you're just looking for a showdog. You wouldn't neccessarily consider these important in a working dog.

Victoria

Annie as admin

An apology for WHAT exactly - I don't think I have ever said anything to contradict what you have just said about Chris and Barry!

Annie as admin

Victoria

Victoria

Such 'intellectual' property must be protected as do those who respond to the survey.

Victoria

Annie, I appreciate your email to explain that the survey is being conducted as your private survey and that you will bring interesting points to the committee.

guy

Are two things being confused here

One; data should be collected and distributed for the good of the breed. This needs to be anonomised so it is purely statistical. Thus allowing individuals to make informed choices about general breeding of bobtails.

Second; there is the creation of a database of know bobs and crosses and outcomes. This one is trickier - if bobtails attract a premium in the future then there will be commercial advantage in having this information. Any individual collecting such information on behalf of an organisation will be open to criticism, particularly if only selected details are then published.

As i see it there is nothing wrong with an individual creating their own information store for their own use. If an organisation run by members for members collects information then all that info must be made available to all members freely and without hindrance.

Annie as admin

Thank you for that, Victoria. I believe it is crucial to make a study of the tails in our breed with legislation as it is, and as Treasurer and a longstanding Committee member, not to say, Founder Member, it would be not less than my duty to pass on information to everyone in our breed, not just the Committee.
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

I should hope so Annie. But I thought that was the idea of doing this survey in the first place.
Jan
Does all that bumf mean you are getting on a little bit Laughing

Victoria

It has occurred to me that in reality the proposed survey is unfortunately retrospective; had it been done prior to legislation being passed mayhaps it could have been used to petition against the bill. Unfortunately not only has the horse bolted but so has the stable door.

Ghilliegumdrop

Not so Victoria, it would not have made any difference to this goverment they would still have passed an anti-docking bill to cover all the other breeds where docking was an option within the KC standard. as it is we now have the choice as to whether or not we use a dog with or without the gene for taillessness [all things being equel] that is, of course, if one's bitch would co-operate and come into season Exclamation

Jan

Annie as admin

The natural tail in the Brittany is specific to the breed, perhaps even to this group. The legislation was not. Therefore any such survey would have had no effect whatsoever.
Annie

Victoria

Whether the Breton has a natural taillessness or not, those of his race with tails have been historically docked along with many other working breeds since back in the mists of time. I still believe a survey presented as part of the case may have been useful. After all, to get the working dog exemption that is in place (UK) someone or something must have been used to petition the hallowed halls of Westminister. What would be very interesting is to ascertain the use of the exemption among the working dog fraternity.
It is not enough to leap up and down in glee and say "well we have the taillessness in our Breton, lets bogey"!! So if your bitches have one or two tailed whelps in their litters, what will you do with them if you only have orders for natural bobs?

Victoria

Which brings me to the breed standard and I quote "naturally tailless, short or customarily docked" Unquote (the bold is my own). What time span is envisaged for a review (to comply with legislation) of this - what, give it a decade or 15 years and see what happens? Would this legislation halt the importations of dogs docked should other countries not enforce any ban? What are the bigger implications of this matter for breeders, owners, importers?? And before anyone says IT WILL HAPPEN (in every other country yet to consider this issue), it just might not!

Victoria

[quote="admin"]The natural tail in the Brittany is specific to the breed, perhaps even to this group. The legislation was not. Therefore any such survey would have had no effect whatsoever.

It matters not that the taillessness is race specific. As we have debated, the implications for the breed are HUGE and that in itself would have been if not powerful ammunication for exemption, at least a very tangible, valid, and strong vehicle for petition.

Annie as admin

Victoria

Victoria

Victoria

Annie as admin

Britmania

I asked the same question as Victoria (ie if only breeding for natural bobtails,what happens to the long tail siblings) some weeks ago.

If breeders want to breed natural bobtail to natural bobtail, so be it.
If breeders want to carry on the status quo and combine natural bobtail and longtail options - so be it.
The UK legislation is in place,so maybe it is time to embrace the longtail.They are after all legal, so can be shown,hunted,field trialled and registered with the Kennel Club.

Natural bobtails DO occur all around the world and all we breeders can do is voice our opposition to to changes (like docking) that our government's intend to introduce.
If they choose to legislate and ban docking - so be it.

We breeders have to ADAPT and preserve this wonderful breed within the legislation of our individual countries WORLDWIDE.

Where the legislation has already been passed, with no right of appeal,
I vote EMBRACE AND ACCEPT THE LONGTAIL.

I also repeat my earlier statement that if it had been easy to eliminate the longtail from the gene pool and thus breed bobtails only, it would have been done generations ago.

Annie as admin

No one wants to nor can eliminate the longtail - there are only a few breeds where the short tail is dominant and therefore breed true to type.
There was a long tailed black and white bitch at Birmingham Championship Show recently which someone asked if it was a small Munsterlander. This is why our breed must have short tails IF POSSIBLE. But NOT to the detriment of the breed. No one in their right minds would say "I'm going to use Stud Dog A in preference to Stud dog B purely because he was born with a short tail" It is distinctly possible that Stud dog B was born with not a full length tail and therefore might sire short, long or bob tails - it is very much a 'suck it and see' situation. And yes, I agree, we must therefore adapt to this. I don't personally like Brittanys with long tails. I have seen them, gone over them, shown them in Scandinavia. They move differently, they don't look typical of the breed IMHO
Annie

Britmania

Annie, you will see from my notes in the show posting that recently,I had Sophie (who is docked) at a show where she was mistaken for a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever - so it is not necessarily only the length of tail that causes confusion when people try to recognise the breed.

I along with no doubt plenty of other breeders of the Brittany ,agree that the "look" of the Brittany will change from what is dominant in the showring now BUT what is the point of bashing against a brick wall if the legislation is already in place to accept the longtail? Sooner or later they will appear in numbers in the ring - that is inevitable isnt it?

You state that your preference is for a short or bobtailed Brittany - so what would you do in a situation where you had two excellent exhibits of the breed infront of you - one with a long tail and one bobtail?

What will aspiring show judges be advised to do in a similar situation?
Does the club intend running any seminars to alert aspiring show judges
about the impact of the legislation on the breed in the showring?

Ghilliegumdrop

Sorry Chris but if someone mistook Sophie for a Duck Toller they need their eyes testing. Was it one of the judges? If so what are they doing judging the breeds in the first place without reading the standards, and if it was another show person...........well, all I can say about that is they don't know either the Brittany OR the Duck Toller. The two breeds are nothing alike. Rolling Eyes

One is like a Border Collie gone wrong and the other is a BRITTANY Exclamation

Jan

Britmania

I dont know who she was Jan. At least her comment was better than what I got once with Spice at a show - while standing outside the gundog ring waiting for our turn,a man asked me if she was a pedigree or a cross bred dog!!!!!
The NSDTR is also a rare breed in NZ, so I guess the lady didnt have much to go on.

Ghilliegumdrop

Oh well, I guess we have to make allowances for these people Exclamation

Perhaps you could sell her a Brittany Question

Jan

Victoria

[quote="admin"]

Annie as admin

Ghilliegumdrop

Illustrious dog from England Victoria, which one was that Question

If you are talking about the Joymonds dogs I have to tell you that there is the tailless gene amongst them as Ray Greenwood has bred several litters containing pups without tails, and I believe they go back to the litter which contained the dog to whom you refer Exclamation

Jan

Britmania

So there you go, the bobtail gene IS all around the world - as are the UK bloodlines.

Ghilliegumdrop

Well.....thats what I told you when I was over there Exclamation

Jan

Victoria

[quote="admin"]

Victoria

Annie as admin

If you would like to send me a 5 generation pedigree I will let you know exactly which dogs are UK bred. I do not know where the previous rubbish has come from but any more of it and I WILL moderate!
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

Oie, what rubbish Question

Jan

Ghilliegumdrop

Sorry Victoria, I'm with Annie on this one I have been all through this posting several times and cannot find any snide comments addressed directly to you or any one else. perhaps it's time to forget this and start up a new posting............hey Question

Jan

Annie as admin

I have locked this topic.