Patricia
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blind retrievesI wonder about a request for a future" club show week end"? Having seen Topaz do some challenging blind retrieves...Wouldn'it be good to have some teaching on a " step by step " basis... 
Following our training for the day, I found it made the brain work- mine anyway- and gave us a challenge for future exercises 
Thoughts?
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guy
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Hmm - he's a good dog :-) and anything we achieve together will be the result of his abilities and those of the people who over the years have advised and helped me. I just blow spit down a whistle and wear out shoes.
not sure a blind retrieve session at the club weekend would work as the results aren't instant.
I could write up how I so it if that helps anyone?
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Mugi
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I think this is a fab idea Patricia, the trouble though is that soooo many of the dogs are at such different stages and have differing strengths and weaknesses (and owner perception of the same ).
My aborted afternoon clicker session was due to be a demo of how to use free shaping and targetting to develop directionals away from a retrieve scenario. I was going to use three dogs - one to show the start point, one to show how to move on and the final one to demonstrate how the behaviour is used in a practical demo. (It was aborted only cos there were so many activities going on at the time and I will be happy to do something similar at another time).
Perhaps a similar scenario could be staged to show how to develop blind retrieves with a novice dog doing the first stage etc etc. Once people had seen the techniques they could be given help to assess where their dog was at and a training plan suggested to move them to the next point??
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guy
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i fear the high level of distraction - dog wee all over the place would make it quite hard to put on a good 'display' - mind you it could be in one of the adjacent fields not previously visited. I am open to ideas.
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Mugi
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Guy, I totally understand that and in reality perhaps that level of demo would be more appropriate at a training day away from the TAN etc for peeps who have gone "just" for gundog training - ie the training days attached to the Open Shows. Even with all the possibility of 'failure' I feel there is a place to give it a go even if the dogs don't perform to perfection as for peeps like me new to the sport all tips and help are welcome.
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guy
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Well I am more than prepared to make a fool of myself if it helps another make a start.
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guy
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Blind retrieve - this relies on running a line to find something. For what it is worth I teach mine by using a field with a path across it. A public path across stubble at this time of year is great, you have a nice green strip with straw either side, good contrast and also good scent trail to act as a 'rail' to run along. A path with a more physical barrier is also very good early on - fenced both sides better still.
Start by dropping a dummy in sight of the dog on the path, carry on walking along a bit together and then send the dog 'back' (or whatever fetch command you use; I use 'back' and it means to the dog 'go away from me in the direction I am pointing and find something'.) Repeat this at greater distances, until you are working at much greater than anything you would wish to send 'back' to for real. Next stage walk down the path with the dog at heel and lob a dummy - seen - a bit ahead of the dog. Turn with the dog and walk back to where you started. Again turn the dog towards teh dropped dummy and send it 'back'. This is different to the dog; after all it is now going back to where it has just been, which is a bit different to where it has just come from.
The dog has always seen the dummy being thrown or dropped and is always sent with the same command and hand signal. So the next stage is to do the above but drop a dummy unseen, and as before send it 'back'. The path should keep the dog on line.
Once the dog is happy doing this well walk ninety degrees off the path (with dog) and lob a seen dummy. Walk back to the path with dog and send the dog 'back' this time there is no visual pathway to follow so it has to go in the direction you send it. It is important (so all the retriever trainers I have spoken to say) to line the spine of the dog up with the direction of travel, line your own body up as well and move your hand very accurately in the true direction (this bit is actually very hard to do as your hand is inclined to drift off at the last minute- have someone watch you do it and give you feed back) I get Topaz to shuffle to where I wanted him by just turning anticlockwise and indicating 'heel' or pushing my knee towards him (clockwise) - all to make him bounce around a bit. He will get very focused and intense waiting for the 'release' - which is a very quiet 'back' and a smallish flick of the hand. I am trying to get him onto the idea more hand movement more distance - don't think I am there yet.
Anyway the dog is with luck running the short line to find the dummy, which it must run straight to. If it drifts off IMMEDIATELY blow the stop and then recall and start again, if the second attempt fails walk a few paces towards the dummy and start again. The dog has to go straight to it and not hunt for it (at this stage), it also has to succeed.
Earlier in this exercise you could introduce a 'hunt there' command - either a verbal 'there' or a suitable whistle command; I try and whistle 'look in there' so a bit like 'pip pip peeep' If you do this every time the dog drops its head to pick the dummy later on you can use this to your advantage. Send the dog on a line, whistle stop, whistle 'hunt there' dog drops its head and starts to look for the dummy / game close by.
Only my way of doing it - hope it might help.
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guy
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From my standpoint i think there are three types of retrieve.
Seen, Blind, and Memory.
Seen - the dog watches the dummy or the bird fall to the earth and 'marks' its position. the retrieve is very soon after this event and at worst before anything els is undertaken.
Blind - the dog has not seen the dummy/bird fall but may have other cues that a retrieve is available - gunfire for instance. The dog is sent in the direction of the object and may have to hunt for it.
Memory - here the dog has seen the dummy / game fall to earth but the retrieve is interrupted by another activity - more birds down, a walk away from the area, retrieve of a 'seen' etc.
Seens are used to improve the dog's marking ability, speed and desire to retrieve; Blinds to improve the relationship between dog and handler and improve the dogs use of its nose amongst other things and Memorys to help the dog improve its mental capacity and spatial awareness.
Seens and memorys can be linked to the trainer rather to much in the dogs mind - the dog will develop an 'envelope' of expectation bounded by the distance you can throw - so it is useful to have another throw dummies for a change. Blinds can be put out before the dog is brought out, dropped surreptitiously whilst out with th edog and it sent 'back' or dropped early in a training session and after the dog has done other things can be sent 'forward' to it / them.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Presumably when you say the dog must go straight to the dummy, you do take into account the wind direction  I find that Ghill runs out but, depending on the wind, she may run to either side instead of along the direct line......if you see what I mean  The only time she may take a direct line is if the wind is from behind us.
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guy
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no I mean straight along the direction you indicate. Yes you need to take into account the wind so it is a case of 'aiming off' so to speak so the dog runs downwind of the dummy. That way you have a greater chance if the dog does tend to drift into or down wind.
The idea of the 'training' is to have it run a directed straight line and not use its initiative - until you tell it to.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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OK I will try that with my new dummy what I have just won and also the feathered one what I have just bought 
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sallie
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Hi Annie - if you read this try and get hold of the book GUNDOG TRAINING by KEITH ERLANDSON, its my bible and goes through everything you need to know about hunting... whistle training, retrieves and hunting patterns plus loads more. Simply written too, which is a bonus for me!!
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guy
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There is another interim stage to use in the training of Blinds. This the technique Bill aka The Plum uses - the 'blind seek back'.
As you walk along with the dog drop a dummy unseen by the dog. After a while turn and send the dog back the way you have just come. So it is a bit like the memory retrieve but you don't let the dog see the dummy.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Bill sometimes has problems with his two as the dogs [being HPRs] have eyes in the back of their heads  .
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guy
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yo sometimes have to be a bit canny :-) Eyes in the back of an HPRs head must be a good thing - can keep an eye on you :-)
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The Plum
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I have been wondering ??? I have a habit of keeping my dogs on a "plateau " of learned behaviours to ensure that these behaviours are thoroughly embedded in my dogs minds. The plateau stage may last several months.
I took Buck (G.S.P.) off his plateau and built up on his blind retrieve distances out to about 250 yards. Then the shooting season started......he didn't have to do one single blind retrieve of more than 40 -60 yards ! It seems I've been wasting my time ! By the seasons end he was unruly and unresponsive even at much lesser distances .....he is badly needing retrained !
I have kept Charlie the cockers blind retrieve distance down to about 40 yards , I have kept him on that plateau for several months now (he is 20 months) I am now considering not bothering to increase this by much as he has just completed a busy season of picking up with no problems arising over retrieving.
What is the ultimate blind retrieve distance that you want and expect from your dogs ?
Bill T.
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