| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| johnhod |
Bringers, brockers and the restAn interesting point came up during a discussion on cross breeds the other day. While a Brittany, springer or cocker (among others) can be legally docked the same does not apply to crosses involving those breeds, as they (the progeny) are not included on the list of permitted dogs. Why then would anyone wanting a working dog go for a cross? |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Why do people pay £800 for a Labradoodle  Because there are either some damn good salespeople out there or, some people are dafter than they look 
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| guy |
what only £800 - I met a chap the other week who had paid £1500 for one that was in his words 'as mad as a box of frogs' and cost him as much again in vet bills as it had jumped out of a third floor window. | ||
| Mugi |
Don't get me started on how much peeps are prepared to pay for a lifestyle accessory!
In response to the original post - docking is illegal in any but the described breeds and any crosses do not fall within the legislation. I have paid a lot of money on my dogs - but the purchase price of all (bearing in mind two were essetially FOC) has been negligible compared to the cost of them in terms of care. My deerhound was advertised at £1000 but by the time I actually bought him and proved I was worthy he was significantly less and he came cheaper still when another pup buyer stood on his foot and broke a toe!!!!!! Do I care about purchase price - no! But I do want a realistic price that reflects breeders costs and the value of buying a life. |
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| Patricia |
The worst crosses I have come across were Sprockers...One of the vets Jessie went to visit had a Lab X Springer( looks like a short legged Lab  )
I groom a Labradoodle..Mad as a hatter, pings like a Standard Poodle, way too much for its owners, and...fits 
One very sweet one I have come across at Dog Club is a ...Cavalier X Cocker  Yes, Jan...
It actually looks like an Mini American Cocker! |
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| sallie |
Poppy is a cross ... springerXcollie... i wish she could have been docked as she is forever catching her tail. I have hunted, done beating and shooting with her and it would have helped with a shorter tail. Its a hard question to answer really, but a docked tail would have benefitted her - she has caught it quite nastily and when she goes through brambles it has been known to have to cut her out! In her defence and the defence of cross breeds, Poppy is fast; she retreives to hand; she will carry all game without leaving a mark in its flesh; flush and find lost game. She was the easiest dog to train... and can out do a certain young Brittany in the field! So lets stop the persecution of dog breeds... there are good and bad qualities in every line of dog. people can buy what they want as long as they can afford their pet and meet the needs of the animal... at the end of the day it is the welfare of the dog that we should concern ourselves with. I'm not too bothered whether i work with a cross breed or pedigree as long as it does the job i want it to do 
As for docking, if the dog is used for hunting there should be an option set in place to dock. |
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| Mugi |
I don't see anyone persecuting dog breeds per se- but persecuting people who try to sell something as a unique designer cross and demanding silly money, then yet I will persecute away  .
On the subject of docking - I will have to remain ambivalent in some ways.........................I have 4 docked dogs and one non-docked. Which has had a tail injury (while not truly working but playing in brambles)? Now that would be the docked WSS who had a thorn injury on the tip of his dock, 4 months and hundreds of pounds later (having narrowly escaping being docked another vertebrae) I eventually got a sound spaniel back. So my ambivalence is more related to the fact that even non-worked traditionally working breeds can sustain injury as they are apt to mimic the work they would do in their recreational activities. In current legislation Freddy is a show dog and would never have been docked - would his injury have ended in amputation, who knows????????????? |
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| Lin Dyke |
I have posted previously on Zac's probs with an undocked tail and being an ESS. This was resolved by Nic, the very enlightened vet, who asked if I would like him to "dock, hmmm, partially amputate, his tail?" Zac has had no further probs with tail injuries in the past nine and a bit years. Could partial amputation become the new docking 
I have a friend who paid silly money (in my opinion £500 is a silly amount) for a Labradoodle. It has a coarse flattish coat and sheds terribly This was not her expectation of a Labradoodle but all credit to her, after a difficult start, she now loves their dog.
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| johnhod |
In my original post I didn't intend it to appear that I objected in any way to people working cross breeds. Rather, i was trying to point out the problems that it could cause as these crosses are not able to be docked (legally) and as such can suffer tail damage through working. The price of them doesn't really come into it for me. If someone is stupid enough to pay a fortune for a mongrel, that is their choice. |
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| Patricia |
Agreed here John...Who is persecuting " Mongrels" oops, sorry crossbreds, it is more PC! 
I love Mongrels too, tails or not...And not adverse to them . I am a pet trainer and see many of those crosses. Lola, the X Cavalier is delightful and I am sure she would, maybe work! Some crosses are not brilliant however. Sprockers( and I have seen a few, appear hyper, with an agressive tendency) Some crosses are not a good idea. I was approached by someone wanting a Brit who owned an Akita/ Mastiff/ Staffie...hummm....and wanted to breed it. Labradoodles are more in " glut" now hence £500, they used to be way way more. Sorry., John, for disgressing. 
Also? a Bringer comes into rescue...Let's say... Whose responsability is it? Brittany or Springer rescue?????? Irresponsible. |
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| Victoria |
Personally, I cannot be bothered with crossbreds...it costs just as much to feed and care for a purebred so why not have a decent one...just my thought.
Loved the comment made to me by a man with a crossbred dog...he called it a purebred...how is it a purebred, I asked...cos, he replied, both parents were pedigree dogs...
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| sallie |
My point was to highlight that poppy was a working dog and she should have been docked because of the injuries she sustained to her tail whilst working.
and just a little reminder ............. All pure breeds start off as a cross breed or mongrel (if you prefer that word) Mongrel = not knowing the father or mulitple fathers of a litter Cross breed = knowing both parents |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Very true Sallie. It's not so long ago that the Brittany was a X breed
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| Patricia |
Not that long ago...only 100 years!
At least we know what we are getting!!!
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Thank goodness.....although those that don't do their homework are in for a shock
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| Patricia |
And this is what you know when you get a Pedigree, What you will get. | ||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Too right Patricia. I know people who have Xs like Springer X Border Collie and they have had dreadful trouble with them. Both workers and both can be manic put some of them together and you have a time bomb waiting to go off......not all of them I hasten to add. | ||
| eddieh |
Does this warn of the pitfalls of cross-breeding or cross-breeding by people who have no idea what they are doing, or breeding for the wrong reason(s)? I admit that I know nothing about breeding or genetics, would never have bred from Tegen and will, if Remi is ever considered to be a desirable sire, think long and hard, and take the advice of people I now know and respect.
Having said that, it is obvious to me that, without the experimentation done by so many people in the past, we would have only a few variations on the wolf. I’m sure that many mistakes were made along the way and that people in the past were less generous toward those dogs that were deemed unacceptable, but is blanket criticism of crossbreeding valid? Who knows? Maybe we are a few generations away from a breed even better than a Brittany, or a Weim’, or a GSP, or a Viszla, or a Spinone, or a ………….? |
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| Victoria |
My gripe with this crossbred thing is that people are making ludicrous amounts of money out of mongrels (mind you, they are aided and abetted by total idiots who will payout )...and others must spend hours and hours coming up with cutesy names for the mongrels...if they spent that much time on caring for the illustrious and renowned breeds we already have then I might be a bit more tolerant. | ||
| sallie |
ALL DOGS DESERVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF LOVE AND ATTENTION... THE VERY BEST THAT THE OWNER CAN GIVE THEM
This post is going to seem that i am against the Brittany I AM NOT.... but I have been brought up with dogs .... Irish Setters, English Springers, GSD, Collies, Mongrels, Cross-breeds and now i have a Brittany. They all have offered their own particular value to my life, and i have taken on their good and bad points with the same amount of love. In the field i would choose my springers... good workers though manic Showing .... Setters, beautiful and graceful ... in the field they are thick (my word and sorry) GSD ... unpredictable and not a family pet... with bad breeding they have too many health problems - would not have another one. Collies - belong on a farm, had one collie and was going to work her ... never again... the list of problems is endless. Mongrel ... good all rounder, very healthy, rubbish in the field or any type of work, but a very good town dog. Cross-breed.... see above regarding Poppy... fantastic dog, though very happy to use her teeth, whilst grooming her, or protecting food. MONET..... great companion, sound temperament, beautiful looking dog, but in the field well ... i have had better for example ... Poppy the Xbreed and Alice & Izzy the Springers. He has good breeding, though breeding does not always mean a good dog. He has no papers so no competing - therefore, in this case it would have been more beneficial to buy a Xbreed or Mongrel... Though I DO LOVE HIM WITH A PASSION, and wallet! As for DOCKING .... which this thread is about and why i used Poppy as an example in the first place ... i feel that dogs if they are working strains should have the option to be docked. All dogs catch their tails in everyday accidents, but the terraine that gundogs work make it more so, and all the more reason to have them docked. Seeing a dog with blood pouring from their tail, screaming in agony as you try to cut them free is heart breaking. |
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| Patricia |
Come on Eddie, how can you better the Brittany?
Victoria, you are right, years ago," such accidents" would have been given away... At the end of the day, breeding is about selection. For specific characteristics( previously for function). May moons ago ( and still in some countries) a dog who did not fill its purpose would have been dispatched. I'll give a small example: I help train a Border Collie, who is calm and a bit " flat". Not a problem dog. In the previous class is a young Border from pure sheepdogs stock who is manic. I asked the lady who was worried by its temperament ( having had a quite Border before). To be told the dam of the Collie turned antisocial and was rather" sharp" and agressive. Now, put this to a " Hyper Springer or else, and here we go... It is all about selection whatever you " put" together. JMO... |
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| Victoria |
The way I see it is that if breeds have been historically docked, then they were historically docked for very real reasons...not out of some sadistic tryanny but to protect them in their work...
am I right in understanding that there is an outage, if you like, for working breeds regarding docking...if this is right, then would a constant avalache of 'applications' give weight to this matter? |
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| sallie |
You still can get the 'original' working dogs docked, though vets are a bit reluctant... legally they are in a precarious position. Cross-breeds however, although many are worked cannot be docked... there is no legal criteria and as the law stands vets cannot legally dock them. I doubt any protest will change the mind of government to add an amendment to the law as it stands; so these dogs will have to contend with painful tail injuries and in the worse case amputation.... so much for animal welfare
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Well there is someone asking for amendments to the DD Act, you never know, in another twenty years someone may put in an amendment to the Docking of Dogs Act. | ||
| sallie |
.... yeah and by then, pigs would have learnt to fly
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Too true Sallie
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| Patricia |
2 of my vets are not reluctant. Having had to amputate, they are only too aware of the problems. At least they understand the terrible damage done by a constantly bloody tail.
I think the French are beginning to take this seriously as, as yet, they have an " exclusion" clause. |
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| sallie |
Patricia you said '2 of my vets are not reluctant.' do you mean they are docking working cross-breeds?... if so, they are leaving themselves open to prosecution .... or are they amputating damaged tails?
Be careful ... walls have ears
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| Patricia |
No, what I mean is that my vet sympathises with dogs who damage their tail so badly they have to amputate... We all know it is a PC subject.
God knows why though. No, my vet will not do anyhting else that proven working dogs following the law to the letter. But, at least they do understand working dogs
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| kandjt |
I noticed today that there are 2 adverts for docked Sprockers in this months Sporting Gun one of which has a certificate, presumably of docking?
Keith |
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| Lin Dyke |
Hmmmm. What an interesting legal argument. A working springer can be legally docked, as can a working cocker, so, why not a cross of these breeds Whilst being neither pure springer nor cocker but a hybrid of two breeds that can be legally docked, perhaps it could be argued to be legitimate to dock them Any legal eagles out there
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| johnhod |
Just found this on the Defra website. Looks like mongrels can be docked
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/pdf/tail-docking.pdf
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| Lin Dyke |
Thanks John. So there is a bit of common sense within defra Shame there's not more
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| sallie |
Quote from DEFRA
'(as long as the necessary evidence indicating that they are likely to work is produced).' Above is the legal argument.............. again the legislation it is too grey and left open to legal interpretation 'likely to work' doesn't mean they will work - then what happens when candidates from the 'pc' lobby become involved? This is why i feel vets are unwilling to dock in some (not all) cases, legally vets have to be very careful.
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| Dave A |
I have just spotted this Advert on another forum, It is an accidental mating of a Cocker x Britt. The interesting thing is that the Dog is tailless even with a cross ?? Just thought some off you may find thay interesting. Dave A |
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| Patricia |
I have also seen years ago a Brittany X mongrel( Springer X ???)
Out of 3 offspring, one half tail, one no tail, one full tail.... I wonder if the ad was really from an accidental mating or???? 
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| Liz |
Many years ago I saw pics of pups from an accidental mating of a Brit/Irish setter, and the pups had a variety of tail lengths - none, short and full length. | ||
| doganjo |
If a dog is a natural short/bob tail it can reproduce that trait regardless of whatever breed it is mated too.
It cannot reproduce it if it is not short/bob itself even though it has siblings that are short/bob tailed. |
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| Dave A |
It looks like having a mongrel is a bargain 
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| doganjo |
I'm beginning to think the £1000 stud fee offered for Allez to be used on a working springer bitch was about right The owner wanted to take the bobtail gene into the breed since we can't dock up here. Perhaps I should have taken it......................
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| Pippa's Pack |
Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but on the subject of bob-tails, I had an interesting conversation with a cocker owner on Sunday. They have a number of successful show cockers and one of their bitches had a litter 7 weeks ago. As she seemed to be having problems, they took her to the vet and the first 2 puppies were born there. The first one to arrive was a natural bob-tail. The rest of the litter had tails. The owner told me the vet would happily give her a certificate for this as he was present at the birth. However, she said she would not show the dog as, even with the certificate, no-one would believe her!
Has anyone heard of this before? This was definitely a mating between two dogs with tails (albeit docked tails) both of whom are show cockers. Was this a genetic mutation and what would be the likely result if this bob-tailed dog was mated in the future? |
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| johnhod |
Off topic I know but what were the results on Sunday Gaye? | ||
| doganjo |
This pup could reproduce bob tails just the same as our breed does. In teh same proportions too. It is not surprising that they may turn up in other breeds that have always been docked even though the list that has been given out of breeds carrying the gene doesn't include the Cocker. If she doesn't want it I'll have it! | ||
| Pippa's Pack |
What? go back into Cockers? Surely not!! I will try and find her address if you are serious. She did not say what she was going to do with it. |
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| Pippa's Pack |
Sophie's Bojo and Pip got both Green Stars. Pip got BOB and Group 4. Vinnie got dog reserve GS (Jimmy did not come - had more sense) Dee Dee got bitch reserve GS. You have never seen rain like it in your life. They had to run the groups in the Greyhound Stadium Betting Hall. Then, in the middle of this downpour, the track sprinklers started up as well. It could only happen in Ireland!
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| doganjo |
Can you email me all the results and judges for breed notes please Gay. Will be sending it Thursday evening (tomorrow) | ||
| johnhod |
Not a bad week overall for Sophie then? Placed on the group twice 
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| gundoglover |
It is possible that this may be recessive bob-tail gene. |
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| Victoria |
found on an obscure website an advertisement for brit/lab x bracco puppies...would that make them Bric-a-brac? | ||
| Dave A |
how much, everything a pound (dollar )
Dave A |
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