Patricia
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Brittany populationI am slowly munching my way through the magazine of the CEB and many articles in that issue are of great interest. From the Sable colour to the inbreeding coefficient of the Brittany.
It looks as if it is just over 5% inbreeding with the total of the Bretons- all going back to 31 dogs!
The article states that 40 years ago the genetic diversirty was great.
Using the top Studs reduces the gene pool and many many dogs go back to Tintin de Keranlouan. Hence going toward a " bottle neck".
There is mention of molecular markers( which I don't really understand, sorry  ) and a statement that the poulation is healthy.
On a personal basis, and always on the look out for good pedigrees, it is interesting but also of slight concern that so many of them have the same dogs in the background.
Now, I wonder, how many of the Uk population will shrink without further infusion? As all the old members will know all the first imports?
What will the effects be?
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Victoria
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Yes, Patricia, just reading your post and I can think of quite a number of dogs (as sires) crop up time and time in the magazine...of course, the recommendation etc format used is going to lead to this, isnt it? And, an elite dog is exactly that if one was looking for a sire. And it is only natural for people to seek these top dogs, isnt it?
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doganjo
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Yes, I agree. But it is not always good practice to use the 'top'dogs all the time. It does restrict the gene pool.
Quite often there are just as good dogs that could be used that haven't been put forward for the top awards.
Just taking the UK alone, I know of a number of dogs that are worked, but not trialled so they will never get to the top dog spot. Their owners don't have the time or inclination to take part in trials - that doesn't mean the dogs aren't as good as those with awards. The same goes for showing - just me for instance - being alone, and with other dogs to have looked after, I can't trail round the Championship shows for two reasons - I can't drive the distances single handed and I need my other animals, not just dogs, looked after. So it is highly unlikely Allez will get his title - but he's the shortest dog I know, he has the best rib cage and chest I know, and a great temperament too. Those are facts - the top dogs may be excellent but there are other excellent dogs around too - I am sure it is the same in France and in other countries.
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Patricia
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I will try to translate this article for a future newsletter as it raises some interesting points. It is however, quite long and not too easy so I will do it when I have a bit of time.
On my side, I now have Indy, Iska and Crak, Varim in a few of my pedigrees including Toscane's sire.
Whilst Indy, Iska, Luron,Lurky etc...are Elite, I feel we may restrict ourselves in future? Other males can also be of great breeding value and only shooting dogs or only trialers. Maybe in the right hands and with Professionals, who knows?
I now have a bitch-also tailless- with many other dogs with diverse lines from du Calestray etc...
A wide genetic pool is quite useful for future...
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doganjo
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For those who can afford to import, yes it is!
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Patricia
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Money received from puppies can be reinvested -or saved- to bring in fresh blood, or go over to France to use compatible & recommended Studs. The passport is quite reasonable.
People also look at the lines behind a male and what it is behind they are looking for.
It is also interesting that the article states that the population from the 6 th and 7 th group are in the majority from dogs who go shooting...
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staandejachthond
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The problem is the keranluan.....its a very big breeder with lots off dog's.....and with a good reputation.....so the change that there is a keranluan in the line is a big one..... 
In to all the dutch line's there are keranluan name's....so.. itslooking for the needle in the hooimijt( don't know the englisch word ( haystake )?)
as long as all the breeders are folowwing the "rules" there will be a little problem.....iff they don't.. well goodbay EB 
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guy
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Isn't the place to look for a stud not the winning dog but the parent? After all it was the parents who produced the winning dog. Training excluded.
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Patricia
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True...about the parentage...and further back...In France, many will see a particular dog run and decide to use it as they have been impressed by its working pattern.
ie lately R'Vampire and Boy des Sources Claires. It is interesting to see the pattern of lines.
I am not referring to trainers or "Pros" as it is obvious they will have the edge. ie the Bois des vauchelles, and manu Marco, Joncour etc...But there again, I guess they won't put a mediocre dog in their van 
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kandjt
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I've read with interest this thread and it has given me food for thought. I was at the British Falconry Fair a couple of weekends ago and saw quite a few Brittanys and was surprised in general at how small they were. BB only just meets the standard for height, but was easily one of the bigger dogs there. A couple of the bitches I saw were tiny, without exageration, they were not much bigger than a Jack Russell. Is there any evidence that the falconers are tending to breed among themselves? If so then this will reduce the gene pool even more. I see from the KC statistics that 158 Brittanys were registered in 2008, is there any way we could get an idea of how many of these were bred by Club members? Such imformation would give a better idea of the gene pool and would also give us some ideas on how as a Club we need to expand our interests.
Keith
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Patricia
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Keith,
I have also had reports with similar comments to yours from a couple of Falconers... That many Brittanys were very small and size very varied as well as shape, one reported very" hyper"....and the Bringers too 
Now, maybe Anne could list all the first imports into the UK and that will give you a good idea of what the stock will go back to earlier on.
Then, as you like doing it so much  refer to the livre d'elevage.( France)
That will help quite a bit I think. We all want the best available but,only imo, it is important to widen the gene poll and use other good proven males ( or females). Once a line breeding is done on a dog or bitch we really like, go out? What do others think?
When some give me odd names-with falcon terms- it means nothing to me, go back further and the picture becomes much clearer with known affixes...
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guy
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I think we must be very careful not to link coincidence and correlation.
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Victoria
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Wise counsel, Guy.
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doganjo
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| kandjt wrote: | I see from the KC statistics that 158 Brittanys were registered in 2008, is there any way we could get an idea of how many of these were bred by Club members?
Keith |
All the dogs bred in the UK (as well as their forebears which may be in any country) are on the database on the Club website. If you type a surname into the search box you will get a list of all the dogs bred by that person. For instance, type in Massie and you will get the names of 25 Brittanys. You could go through the members list in the newsletter and find out how many were bred by members. Maybe Donald could produce such a list from the two separate databases if he had the membership list, not sure. Other than that the BRS would give you breeders names and you could compare that to the membership list. Would it be a useful exercise? Can't really see why it matters whether litters were bred by club members or not..
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kandjt
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Perhaps I can explain better where I am coming from and put some meat on the bones of my post.
Firstly I am not anti falconers, a number of years ago I was seriously considering buying a Harris Hawk, but in the end joined a wildfowling club instead, (it was cheaper). I have been out with my Brittanys with broadwings and have a friend who is a falconer, (incidently he is anti-Brittany).
I have been attending the Falconry fair for the last 5 years , partly to look at the birds, but mainly to spend some time dog-watching. You tend to see more Brittanys at this show than any other. This year there appeared to be more in attendance than usual and I was surprised at their general size. Since most were of the same stamp this prompted me to ask if the falconry world were only using dogs within their number. I had also come across adverts on the web from falconers asking for small Brittanys, one of which even appeared on this forum, so I guess I put 2 and 2 together.
I am well aware that these observations could be sheer coincidence, hence the reason I asked in my original post whether anyone had any evidence. If it is the case, then the Brittany will effectively have two separate smaller gene pools which cannot be a good thing for the breed.
My question about Club members litters was my attempt to gain evidence. Working from the premise that Brittany Club members were committed to producing dogs that would not only hunt, point and retrieve, but would also conform to the breed standard, eliminating them from the 158 registered Brittanys would perhaps shed some light.
Should we be concerned at the size of the breed gene pool? As a labrador owner I know that there is concern among the lab world at the state of their gene pool and their registrations are in the thousands not less than 200. Whilst I don't believe that there is a serious problem with the Brittany I also believe that it is prudent to be aware of potential problems.
Regards
Keith
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doganjo
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Ah, I see now. To be honest, anyone can breed anything to anything in the UK - we don't have the good breeding restrictions that there are in say France or Germany - if only.
I have just gone through the members list and as far as I can see there are about 18 who have bred a lot of litters since 1982 and about half of those no longer breed, so there are about 9 or 10 regular breeders at the moment, some of them breeding more than one litter a year. There are another 5 or 6 that have over the years bred about half a dozen litters, and another 6 or 7 that have had one or maybe two litters.
in 10 to 15 years
Not quite sure where that leaves us.....................
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johnhod
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Presumably there will be a number bred and not registered, especially if they are not to be trialled or shown 
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Patricia
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My original post was only to show that using only popular sires restricts the gene pool
One has to be more imaginative and realise that if you want a good working dog: he/she can also be seen in the shooting field if you know what you are looking for. ie strong retriever( definitely for me  fast and covering ground intelligently etc...and a well put together dog preferably.
It is easy to only use the Champions, others may help keep a variety of bloodlines. It is too easy to be short sighted on one only bloodline...Others may have merit too...
I was not referring to numbers bred or falconers, as, like everywhere there is good and bad!
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guy
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Whilst using a limited number of dogs reduces a gene pool - does not a really outstanding one provide a platform on which to build? The big problem would however be the late onset of disease in such a super stud - the effect would be catastrophic.
Champion dogs as Annie has said are often made with cash and shoe leather. An ambitious and motivated campaigner with deep pockets could eventually make up a CH even though there are dogs around not on the 'circuit' who could easily outclass it. But this is the system we have in this country for determining 'greatness'.
Perhaps it is time for breed clubs to consider aligning themselves to a versatile dog testing scheme - ideally the same one. There is no need to invent one, they already exist. And yes i know the results can be skewed by personalities and it is not perfect - but it is better than the 'nothing' we have at the moment.
A good dual purpose dog is just that - but without measure there is no way of making informed judgements on breeding decisions.
At the end of the day this is really only a problem for those wishing to move the breed forward, maintaining the status quo is much easier to achieve.
Perhaps a double system - conformation and working ability by assesment is one system; by competition is the other.
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | maintaining the status quo is much easier to achieve |
And the preferred option for some, no doubt.
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kandjt
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The British gundog scene is fixated about using CH and FTCH as studs and labradors went through a very sticky patch when the optigen test for GPRA was introduced. One of the most popular sires used in the 80's was found to be a carrier. You can find him and his offspring in the pedigrees of most working labradors. The situation is not helped by stud dog owners having their dogs dna tested but not revealing the results. I know of at least one FTCH lab who has been very, very successful, but is a carrier for GPRA and yet until very recently was being advertised as being clear of PRA. This is not hearsay, you can find the evidence on the KC website, but how many people actually research their choices, either of dogs or puppies?
Just having a few super studs would certainly limit the choice and narrow the gene pool as only the traits of the studs would be passed on. When I was looking for a new lab pup I was looking for certain qualities, those of you who have seen Cassie work will know what I mean. There must be at least 50 FTCH stud labradors in this country, but only a handful met my requirements. I'm not sure if there was less choice I would have been able to find a suitable litter.
Like many others I'm not sure if the Field Trial system we currently have shows HPR work in its best light and this was one of the reasons that the HPR Championship was discontinued. As to the versatile gundog test I don't think the KC would allow its monoply to be undermined, IMHO.
Keith
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doganjo
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Researching hereditary diseases was one the the things I did when I was looking for a stud for my friend's black lab bitch. I looked for carriers names on the internet and by a process of elimination I found a stud for Caley that was fairly local, healthy, not carrying anything untoward - but he had only won a few low level awards. However, she had a good litter and I persuaded my sister ta have one - just so happens I picked him at birth when we were whelping Caley. Sue kept a daughter and she is shaping up very nicely at 2 years old!
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guy
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| kandjt wrote: | As to the versatile gundog test I don't think the KC would allow its monoply to be undermined, IMHO.
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I don't think it would either  but then it won't have to as there is no demand for such a test
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