brittany range

guy · brittany range

I have cross posted this from the French forum

The author is 'chiendog'
Hello,

I am a photographer, writer and dog-nut who has spent the last 10 years photographing, researching and speaking to experts of all of the continental gundog breeds for a book project I am working on.

Currently I am making my way through the chapter on the Epagnuel Breton (Brittany). I have had the pleasure of hunting over several outstanding Brittanies here in North America (I am in Canada) and have seen a good number of Bretons in the field in France, Holland and Italy.

In each chapter, I write about the breed's origins, appearance, performance etc. In the Breton/Brittany chapter, I will touch on the differences between the Euro and American versions. While a detailed exploration of all the aspects are outside the scope of the book, I would nevertheless like to describe the most important differences, especially in terms of performance.

So here's my question: How did the idea that "French Brittanies" work more or less in gun range take hold in North America? I have read several widely published articles written by American authors, quoting American breeders that stated the main difference between the Brittany and the Breton is one of range. And it may be true to a certain extent. However, the differences suggested are huge. While it is true that some Brittanies can and do show an all age range in some forms of field trials, I simply cannot think of one Breton that only ranged, as one article claims "50 to 75 feet on either side of the handler". Every one of the Bretons I have seen in field trial competition in Europe ran very wide. Some would give a good setter or Pointer a run for the money. Granted, they were all hot-blooded trial bred dogs, but nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that anyone in Europe is breeding Bretons that never range further than cylinder bore shotgun range.

Am I way off base here? Are there very close working lines still out there? What is the typical range of a Breton?

www.craigkoshykphoto.ca
www.chiendog.blogspot.com

Tricky micky

Interesting info Guy. When trialing in this country dogs should be kept within the guns either side of handler,also you should try & keep up with your dog as much as possible to avoid mishaps. This way handler is in control not the dog once you have this in place you can then trust your dog and be fully focused with each other. I try and do this all the time now with my Ruby after all the dog should only work where you the handler tell's it to work. The range does vary a little but usually is about 30-40yds either side of guns although down wind can vary a little more as the Judges tend to like to see the dogs go out more in case of running bird's, then turn and work the wind.

Des O'Neile

Tricky micky

I did'nt say in a line you work within the area of the guns left & right so as not to cover ground which the other runners could maybe use.

Patricia

I can quote a couple of judges from France, one of which mentionned that the dog, when quartering, having done his " lace" should be about 40 yards in front...from the gun.
Another mentionned that, in his opinion, some dogs( in spring ) ranged too far for his liking. The first was talking roughly about 100 ms-150ms top.( spring)
On a UK trial, we don't need a dog miles away, the Brittany will pace himself to the terrain in any case...and those little dogs are plenty fast enough imo. Wink

Des O'Neile

I can see I am going to have to learn another language to understand this forum.

Tricky Micky.
In the two events I witnessed, and I have to say that I thought there were similarities between the mothod of working in Ireland and the Uk, the guns didn't walk anywhere other than behind the handler. When the dog pointed a gun would take up position either side of the dog and and move along as the dog roaded to the flush so I would like you to explain to me what this bit of your post means.

guy

Surely depth of 'bight' will relate to scenting and ground conditions and above all teh ability of the dog's nose? 40yards may have been ideal for the particular conditions rather than the ideal.

Whilst a trial on a large field may have the judges artificially limiting the dog's beat (and i have heard of dogs being put out for 'being out of control' if they have exceeded that) - if the object of the exercise is to find game then the dog needs to do just that as it will wait on point until any guns arrive. The more ground you cover and the more places you look in the 10 mins alloted the more chance you have of finding something.

The question was however - how did the idea come about in America that French dogs hunt within gun range.

Is the answer something to do with any natural 'retrieve' instinct winning over natural 'hunt' instinct?

Using a world survey of two - i can say the dog that has the higher hunting drive hunts wider than the dog that has the higher retrieve drive.

Patricia

-" how did the idea come about in America that French dogs hunt within gun range."

I have not forgotten on another group someone describing some Brittany like..." an Aspro" in the horizon Rolling Eyes

In the US.
But, we are in the UK, and we only compete against HPR's. In the booklet of work standards, some ranges for other Continental breeds are described. The 4o yards in front was the most the judge wanted the dog ( withing shot range)
An old French breeder is desillusioned by the distances now covered by some field trial dogs. Confused

Des O'Neile

I was a member of a walked up grouse syndicate for four years and our most productive dog, mainly because the handler only had one dog and he ran her all the time he was out, was a light built GSP called Ellie. On a one to one basis she could out perform any of my pointers for a time at least. Ellie ran like, and covered the same amount of ground as a pointer.
Now in my mind it is the terrain that suggests the desireable range of any dog. If you are on an open moor surely you will want a greater range than in a Co fermanagh potato field.
So if your dog has the belly for it and you can be sure it is staunch why wouldn't you want the dog to be like an aspro? Surely a dog that covers a good beat will find and produce a greater percentage of the vailable game?

I am completely at a loss as to why an HPR needs to be within gun range when working?

Patricia

Because many of us want a rough shooting dog and if we wanted an " Aspro" we would get a different breed. A Ferrari is not for everyone!
In France, some " Spring dogs" are too hot to handle for many, a lot of owners of this most popular breed ( in many countries) are simply " shooters" ie chasseurs.
You also need to be more experienced...?

Des O'Neile

Patricia

This is an answer from an experienced gentleman who thinks nothing to travel all over the world to see the Brittanys. Thought some may like to read it Wink

I was out running my dogs tonight and I thought of your Post that I read a week or so ago.
And the answers you received.
I had four dogs on the ground.
Three of them were OUT there.
Each was in a different area and they each were just barely visible.
It was dusk as usual and I could see them OK....they were each out about 125-150 yards.
How do I know?
Well.
I have stepped it off many, many times.
Many times while running and training every evening and while hunting them (usually 40 days each season or a bit more) to get to a point.

Question: "What is the typical range of a Breton? "

ALL things considered, in short grassed prairie (which all woiuld agree is the max area for range), a well-conditioned and field/bird experienced EB will range around 100 yds more or less.
Just like most Continental Dogs like Braques etc.

Question: "How did the idea that "French Brittanies" work more or less in gun range take hold in North America?":

Who REALLY knows?
But there is an element of truth but only a bit of truth.
Plus the FCI FT RULES do require a dog (Continental) who quarters his field (in Spring FTs ---winter wheat) in a manner that would have a dog range maybe 75-100 yds on each side of the handler and within maybe 30-50 yds in front of the handler.
And the FT dogs do...are actually selected for this and a dog who ranges too far or too wide is penalized and discouraged by Judgment.

Statement: "Some would give a good setter or Pointer a run for the money."

Now I have been to over 12 Major Field Trials for EBs in France, Italy and Spain.
Have seen the major Dogs....maybe as many as 200 Breton dogs total.
I have seen the very best Bretons and Continental dogs in Europe.
AND
I have seen the Finals - Gran Quette (Barrage) of the English Dogs at the French Cup, 2006 and the same near Lake Guarda in Italy in 2007....and You are correct.
The English dogs simply do not range as BIG as the English dogs do in CA and the USA.

BUT
The average Breton does not range anywhere near as BIG as a Horseback USA Brittany.
Nope.
Not even close.
No 300 or 400 "meter" Epagneuls Bretons!

If you are on foot you cannot even SEE a dog out 400 yards!
Go step it off.

There is a difference in FT types...and it is all about what is desired and selected by the different parties.

Range.
And contact.

Regards

Greg Connolly