| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
Confirmation... joke or not?In France, all dogs need to have a Confirmation test at one year of age in order to have a " Definitive" Pedigree.Yesterday I had the biggest surprise in hearing that a puppy I bought in France ( tailless) was confirmable: at 47 cms and with a level bite. Needless to say, after bitter disappointment as he has excellent bloodlines,I left him behind. Not being able to believe what I heard I rang a judge, specialist in Bretons. Yes, 47 cms is the minimum size and we need a a male to be an " Athlete" . Today was the first time I put the confirmation test in question. Being an eternal Optimist, I never saw flaws in the system. I can hear Anne's comments now!!!! Anyone buying abroad, make sure you have a receipt or agreement stating the purpose of the dog, it does not come cheap anf you'll be ...on your own 
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| Mugi |
This kind of echos a conversation had a the Judging Seminar last week when we were discussing size in relation to other 'faults' at the end of the day.
From my personal perspective I feel size is important but on a UK judging system I can see it is possible for a dog to be awarded a first if an over or under sized dog is the best dog there and it is otherwise correct. I would however have thought that under FCI rules a dog could not be considered "Excellent" as size is very prescriptive within the standard and such a large deviation from the standard surely should rule out that Excellent. I am toying with the idea of importing in the future (Chase is the priority for the foreseeable time) and I am certainly learning some of the pitfalls!!!! |
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| doganjo |
It's Ok, the daggers have been sheathed 
47cms is within the standard - JUST, because of that one centimetre tolerance thing they decided a couple of years ago. (da$%ned stupid I say - minimum and maximum heights are there for a reason - why ad a tolerance???) So I suppose they are within their rights to confirm a dog at that height. But unless it is a really slow grower it won't make size. If in a class on its own over here, and no knuckle was visible, one could with-hold or offer a 2nd place instead (Although that would still give a Crufts qualification unless it was a non qualifying class like novice) As for the teeth, it clearly states in both ours and the FCI standard that it should be a scissor bite. I personally wouldn't confirm a level bite. Is it a serious enough fault to with-hold? I think I would. |
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| Patricia |
Thanks for you opinions. I would like to stipulate that breeding is for the betterment of the breed, so having pups from an undersize dog in this case will" throw" back. Sometimes we wonder why we get what we get in the offspring!!!
Speaking to a high ranking judge, a level bite is accepted. You should check and be able" to put a " match" in between the teeth, what size match, from paper boxes ?( disposable?). And it should also be how the teeth lay.This judge was more bothered about the size issue. It is a working dog. In my case, the tailless pup has no knuckle left. He is confirmable, he will be able to breed if so wished. His working pedigree is amazing. If you think about importing, think long and hard and stipulate on paper as proof. Right now, I feel let down and shocked by a Confirmation which seems to mean nothing at all. 
I bought a Cirneco for my son, fabulous dog( he is on a full page of the "Our Dogs" supplement with his rabbit. He was pet price , passported, vaccinated, chipped, etc...from a brilliant breeder. He was Top Cirneco here..but...abroad he would be 1 cm too tall and the breeder shows worldwide. Here, we don't get the measuring stick out, so no matter. but abroad, they do. I guess my pup will not get an " excellent" but he will still go to a working home and be confirmed. He looks like a teddy bear. 
Previously I have always imported adults and Patrick Morin had never let me down. This story of tailless and docking has many, many ramifications 
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| Wyngold |
I always thought that most everyone knew that a confirmation exam speaks nothing of the quality of the dog just that it fits within the minimum requirements of the standard.
Anytime one purchases a puppy it is always a risk no matter what you put on a contract. Very few breeders will guarantee that a dog is finishable and even in that sense just because a dog finished a title does not make it a breeding prospect....that is pretty evident in many of the dogs I have seen all aroudn the world. Lots of dogs have come to North America with Dys. A ratings and are dysplastic at 2 yrs of age. It is mostly due to the wrong age of evaluating that they are not getting past this issue. AND...it depends on which reader was used. When Dr. Begon is gone I expect one will see some regression in hips for a spell as the other two readers are alot more lenient from the xrays and results I have compaired over the years. As some keep pushing for excessive short muzzles or too wide a back skull they will be drawing in the genes for more jaw issues. IMO But that is just a presonal observation and what happens in some of the lines that are bassed on a few pedigrees I have seen so far. |
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| Patricia |
Goldie, I am an eternal Optimist! I never realised that such a poor quality animal as the one I described could be confirmed. Because it is easy for me to ask, I did and got the fact confirmed. My whole view of the confirmation has changed 
Buying adults: yes, of course...But...few breeders will do so in France( I wanted a different bood line) you have to have a fat wallet, which is fine but another But....We need to keep a dog for 7 months in France for the English Passport. At around 5 Euros per day, plus vaccinations, rabies, chip, blood test etc...So that part far outweighs the price of the dog. A lot of money to lose. Some breeders are very fair, some are not. Hence the trust issue. Both myself and the good Italian breeder of the " Val di Grossa" bought a couple of dogs which turned out to be too small, he returned his puppy. We both were given a replacement. The breeder did not have to and it was honourable of him to do so. One sure thing: I shan't be doing that again in a hurry!!! |
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| Wyngold |
Yes the system is flawed for sure...good intentions but at the same time
I think too much focus on just "size" can also be a downfall. Many dogs are confirmed with lots of faults they will never be a show champion but still they can be a field champion with the right heart and training and handling on a minimum of breed traits or hip scores. That is the way it has been and will be for working type breeds that still focus on both aspects as opposed to the split that has occured in so many breeds into a work type and a show type. Even if one selected a dog for breeding with all good attributes and used one that was right in the pocket for "size" you can and will have dogs all over the map in that regards unless you are understanding that size is a "threshold" trait, just like seizures, white factor, and dysplasia has shown. Get enough of the additive traits and you increase size or "White color" and breed to a dog carrying minimizing traits you will get decreased size. What is interesting it may be only 1 tiny strand of "info" missing that gets the dog you are using in the pocket, and then another dog of identical size can just be 1 strand of "info" above the minimum. So what you "see" externally is not what the dog is actually carrying gene wise. I think that the majority of longtime breeders understand this fact and so do not minimize dogs if they are in the tollerance zone or not. Some like this fact as they can "fix" a problem using dogs with known "additive" or "minimizing" factors. This is why some dogs even small ones consitently throw larger no matter what they are bred too, and some very large dogs seem to only throw small...or why we say sometimes that a line produces bitches or a line produces males of a better quality. And it is up to those seeking breeding stock to "gather" that information so you know what to work with and how to use a particular line of dogs. Especially if one is only looking at a diverse pedigree one should expect a diverse result.... What you may not have heard about is that many dogs are shipped off that are out of their home regulations...those same dogs are used abroad in other programs and the offspring are brought right back in to be used from again. This open registry system is what keeps so much diversity in the breed...in some ways this a very good thing from a health standpoint...and then...a bit disturbing when a trait previously unknown shows up! |
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| Patricia |
I have just been told by a senior Brittany specialist judge that a male should be" an athlete". I can see some may forgive " small size" but the whole litter is small. I guess it is about knowing the background dogs.
But with a teeth issue as well? In any case, as we have hares here and shoot them , I want to have my dogs being capable of retrieving them without problems- and to be able to pick them up as well as large cock pheasants. I guess that is a preference???? I am not in genetics, but have done a great deal of observing, and every now and again, we need fresh blood. All I can say is I am not debating for the hell of it, I have been very lucky with my Keranlouan and had been sold dogs which were " what it said on the tin" !!!! |
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| sallie |
I must admit i have found nothing wrong with Monet - yes the breeder was a bit 'dodgy' but i cannot fault the dog e.g. nice height, good temperament, no over shot jaw, good hips, fantastic all rounder hpr and a black roan. There again he has 'sound' bloodlines, and i have to thank the breeders of his grandparents and parents for their hard work in maintaining a 'true' EB that is an all rounder 
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| Wyngold |
There is your clue...the whole litter is small.
There is no debate...what I am stating is that like dysplasia size is a threshold trait...size like dysplasia is also an environmentally affect appearance...as you well stated dietary influences do effect what happens to a dog. And just like some lines grow rapidly to full height early on...some lines growth hormones do not even get turned on until later and hence we see some lines that do a growth spurt well after 1 year of age. That was the only purpose of my post. Not that one needs to or has to accept anything just what is at play....sometimes understanding the interactions helps one out in the end with consistency. Do hares weigh over 11 kg in the UK? In Hawaii and here in the US 18 inch bitches are capable of hauling in a goose or medium turkey off the ground. And yes in speaking with many field competitors they talk about athleticism not so much in "size" but in lean and mean terms which does help with endurance and ground speed for those of us who like fast and wide ground coverers. |
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| sallie |
So by this quote are you meaning that you would like to see the EB split into two different 'aspects' i.e. show or working lines (like for eg ESS) - because it 'allegedly' makes for better breeding? |
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| Wyngold |
Quote:
That is the way it has been and will be for working type breeds that still focus on both aspects as opposed to the split that has occured in so many breeds into a work type and a show type So by this quote are you meaning that you would like to see the EB split into two different 'aspects' i.e. show or working lines (like for eg ESS) - because it 'allegedly' makes for better breeding? NOPE...but it is often what is forced upon a breed by the show fraternity, and especially by those who own non-working breeds. AND by the fact that shows often require that dogs be shown "fat" to hide and smooth an outline the same dogs in working condition are often overlooked. This even happens in France....working weight can equate to a TB and show conditioning of the same dog will get you an Exc. or if too heavy for a certain frame get you measured out! |
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| Mugi |
I have a WSS and a few times I have been told he is 'too lean' and 'too muscled' (Not breed specialists Gill ). He used to compete at agility and yes he is kept in lean fit condition. Both Mugi and Chase have had comment on their muscle tone and all my dogs (including the deerhound) have good, firm, sleek muscles but none are over muscled as to me that is abnormal also.
To me it would be a total disaster if we diverge another breed into work or show but we also do have to be honest and weed out (of the breeding programme not out of a happy and fulfilled life) any dogs that are not good enough. I am lucky with my experience of Brittanys as I have been blessed with two lovely and typical dogs - Mugi by accident and Chase cos even though in many ways it wasn't the right time he was definitely the right dog. Freddy my WSS, even ignoring his hereditary eye problem would never have been bred from as he has temperament issues that may be down to his early start but as I don't know he would never father pups. Brice my deerhound had a number of offers as he is stunning, but he has c**p feet and front pasterns and as the breed is undergoing a breeding programme that seems too lax I don't feel he adds enough to the gene pool. Just cos I can I don't see I have to use my boys - I love them to bits but I also am not blinded to their faults and they are my pets first and foremost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| sallie |
Thank heavens for that as the reason i changed from ESS to EB was because of the poor breed standards... e.g. workers with short legs, temperament change, length of ear, jaw etc. 
As previously stated i need a good loyal working dog that is able to hunt for at least 6 hours per day, 3 days per week in whatever terrain or weather; the EB although i find hard to train has certainly met that criteria. Again it is thanks to the breeders staying true to the EB standards. |
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| Patricia |
There is your clue...the whole litter is small.
Yes...but it was not obvious at 8 weeks! It became an issue when the pups were over 5 months, the lenght of leg was short..and no knuckle. Good bone, very cobby, enthousiastic, swimming, retrieving etc...The fact remains I need the complete package. and that is not at the bottom end of standard. No, I have not weighed our hares
Poor little mite, it would be hard work in sugar beet too
Give me long legs any day, Athos sure covers some ground fast, far and wide...
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| Wyngold |
Quote:
Give me long legs any day, Athos sure covers some ground fast, far and wide... LOL just be careful...you might end up with the "hated" American leggy dog ! 
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| Patricia |
Well Goldie, if I had put Darcy next to Athos, I would have had Little and Large...May as well be different breeds He is on my web site and has no trouble in rough terrain
I look back at some of the old photos in French books and see a square dog , tall on legs , not a midget with no...legs
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| Victoria |
If everyone kept to the breed standard then there would not be these problems. Having a breed standard that everyone can interpretate helps.
Show people have show people judging their dogs...how can a show judge (without trial or hunting experience) understand the musculature of the breed...I have had my dogs persecuted in the ring for having muscle tone (as clearly defined in the breed standard)...
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| Patricia |
Standard...47 cms is "in the standard" ... up to 51 cms with tolerance either way -in the standard-
Put those size dogs next to each other and see... I fully appreciate little of large dogs can be fabulous workers, but with those sizes in the gene pool, we can be opened to all sorts of surprises when breeding. As confirmation allows a definitive pedigree. It is hard to stay dual purpose in such cases. My mistake: Try to have tailless and can't say I am prepared to compromise on quality. So back to square one or a long all trip round France to check out recommended studs who are tailless.work.are beautiful 
Is it worth it though? And a very expensive experiment
I have learnt a lot through my mistakes!!!! I have been lucky that Odille Quefellou put me onto the Keranlouan kennel. For me no one has touched him...so far. |
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| Anne Eissing |
Patricia, I completely agree with your comments. I cannot understand why your dog wasn´t confirmated, like you say: 47 cm is in the standard! | ||
| Patricia |
Thank you Anne...Yes, Darcy will be confirmed at 47 cms...and with a level bite( teeth not undershot but both sets touch each other)...I don't want a dog of that size but a " real" male of at least 5ocms. I would rather leave it behind and lose my money( which I have)than breed inferior quality  Toscane is 49, the rest a good 48 1/2, my Du Petit Odon 50, so... I don't want a male smaller than the girls
The ideal states" 50" for a dog. 3 cms is a lot 
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| doganjo |
Perhaps I read it wrong but I think what Patricia means is that Darcy is too small and shouldn't have been confirmed. The result is she won't take him into the Uk, and has therefore lost her money. - is that right Patricia? | ||
| Patricia |
Sadly it is right Anne. I have made a really big mistake in searching for that" perfect tailless dog" which would be(or so I had hoped) the solution to all my problems 
Pedigree is great, an" 8 point" litter with field trialled parents on both immediate parents etc...cob. I will simply not import something as extreme in size as that. It will be a lesson in buying a puppy. I can forgive some conformation faults to some extent as you can improve but...not size and teeth as well!
I was lucky to get a replacement in the shape of Chriss before and so was the lovely kennel of the Val di Grossa with another breeder. I don't somehow think this will be the same scenario here. You buy a pup, " fingers crossed" it will be OK or .. if not...bad luck
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| Patricia |
Anne...You're right. I don't think it should be confirmed. But it will be and that makes me mad as potentially THAT can be bred from. | ||
| Anne Eissing |
Too fast reading and too bad english! Bad combination! 
You are right Annie, thank you, now I understand. But with 47 cm for a male he must be confirmed as the standard says. Like Patricia said I also don´t want to have a male with 47 cm. But as a puppy you can´t see how the height will be at the end. The teeth constallation called pincers bite in Germany, you cannot breed with a dog who has such a bite in Germany, but I don´t know how it is handled in France. |
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| Patricia |
Anne, your English is very good, I don't speak German as we learnt Spanish at school( Latin based so easier for me)
Yes, 47 cms is in the standard, but No I don't like very small Brittanys-jmo... -teeth: pincers ie "en pince" in French. It is fine, I have checked with 2 senior judges. OK, they would not get a CAC- but who knows?- but if an otherwise excellent specimen, would get placed. Level is not undershot which is not allowed in the French standard. Though it calls for a " scissor" bite". all grey areas? The pup is 10 months now, by then the finished height is not far off apart from a bit. And if there is " knuckle" ie some bone growth left on the wrist. There wasn't. I should have looked harder on the pedigree to double check on the line breeding side. I am passionate about the breeding of these dogs. it is a fascinating subject. I enjoy reading the results of the field dogs . Well done in running in Vimpelles, any dogs which struck you as excellent? We look forward to seeing you again... 
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| Anne Eissing |
I like the winner of the Derby in Chateau Landon "Coquin des Tilleuls de St. Georges", owned by M. Boursereau. We saw him at Gurcy le Chatel. He was in our group and did a really good run, saidly he pushed partridges so he was eliminated. But we took photos of him because we like his standard and his colour very much. I think you would like him too. Look at his site:
http://www.chiens-de-france.com/s...ID_SITE=2361&PK_RUBRIQUE=7362 I didn´t know him and his kennel before. He was bred from Indy de St. Lubin/Keranlouan/Kervaillant. Very interesting I think. It would be interested to see his brothers and sisters. Perhaps he will come to Gujan Mestras. Do you know the Breeder and the breed? Hope to see you in Gujan-Mestras. I will fly with Bolko to the N.E.. (Bolkos flight is more expensive than my flight )
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| Patricia |
Yes,I agree Anne, he looks a really nice dog with exellent Bretons like Indy, Rapide and Milord. I had heard about the latter through George Riva...Indeed an interesting pedigree. Now, do you know if he is tailless?
There is no way I am buying a puppy now as it is too much of a gamble. and far to expensive if things go wrong. I was lucky with Jean Marc Binet who guarantees confirmation, took Clochette to do her TAN, 2 shows etc...
I should have stuck to my original plan to use an Anoure or Brachyoure stud in France. We are going to Gujan, though I don't think I will be taking my bitch who will have had puppies and she may have a saggy undercarriage. And that wouldn't do! Instead, I will go and support her brother Chase
If Coquin is there, I shall look forward to seeing him in the flesh. How are your puppies doing from Venus? We shall see you in France then...
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