Ghilliegumdrop
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ConformationPerhaps now we have [hopefully] made progress towards identifying the sable gene in the Brittany we can look towards other things that are creeping in.
For instance;
There seems to be a lot of dogs coming up from the first classes with long backs and small heads. This is making the outline longer rather than square, so we are in danger of loosing the 'cob' which is typical Brittany.
Any thoughts on this  Is the outline more or less important than the colour which can, after all, be bred out within a couple of generations and which, if we are being honest, does not affect either their shape nor the ability of the dog to perform in the working field 
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doganjo
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Re: Conformation | Ghilliegumdrop wrote: | Perhaps now we have [hopefully] made progress towards identifying the sable gene in the Brittany we can look towards other things that are creeping in.
For instance;
There seems to be a lot of dogs coming up from the first classes with long backs and small heads. This is making the outline longer rather than square, so we are in danger of loosing the 'cob' which is typical Brittany.
Any thoughts on this Is the outline more or less important than the colour which can, after all, be bred out within a couple of generations and which, if we are being honest, does not affect either their shape nor the ability of the dog to perform in the working field |
I've seen this too. I haven't judged for a while (except in Norway recently) but I think it could be down to all rounder Judges placing longer backed dogs higher in preference to something else they don't like - maybe movement they aren't used to for example?
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Or even breeders not knowing what to breed for or not being able to look at their dogs and see them objectively ie; kennel blindness
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doganjo
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True, that too.
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guy
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I think the majority of dogs currently displayed in the ring can be traced to only a handful of breeders. I suggest that most of these take great care to develop their lines. However we all know that not every puppy in a litter will be a star even if both parents were perfect. the criticism could be levelled at breeders if they themselves were promoting animals that were not the best they had.
We are also witnessing a greater number of new owners / handlers and therefore may be seeing dogs that a few years ago would not have been shown?
I think Annie therefore has it - indeed personal experience has proved this on several occasions; inexperienced judges, and allrounders with a specialism in other breeds can often miss the whole point of our breed. Only a month or so ago Ellie took reserve best dog in a Ring Craft competition whilst Catja did not make it into the judges cut let alone a place. Now I did not mind in the least as it was only a fun event and it was great to see Ellie noticed - indeed has made me think once again more carefully about her - but the judge, who owns flatcoats and WSS was taken by her movement and alertness rather than any understanding of the standard.
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doganjo
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That's exactly what I am getting at. I enjoy my two girls winning from time to time and Freckles does have 2 tickets but as a Judge myself I know that Allez is far better constructed than both of them. Breed judges usually see that but not always all rounders.
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Patricia
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Also some judges have a " thing" they may prefer? like heads,or deep bodies, or ??? for example... Be interesting to ask?
Hence you can recognise a" kennel" by their type. For isntance in France you always recognise a St Lubin.
It is a matter of choice. You could have a short back but an ugly head, sound body etc...? After that it is a matter of opinion!
Sometimes too, you get a "pet" dog sold just for that who ends up in the ring, much to the annoyance of its breeder!
Only a few in a litter will make the cut unless you are very lucky or...very talented 
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doganjo
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| Quote: | | Only a few in a litter will make the cut unless you are very lucky or...very talented Idea |
Yes, some people handle well enough to disguise faults, and can change their handling for all rounders and breed judges.
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Tricky micky
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And how long has the docking ban been in force, is this only the beginning, people are bound to overlook certain minor faults in there quest to use a dog with the tailless gene, we haven't gone down this route ourselves this time, but you cannot blame people if they do! As we have not been out there showing for some time l don't know if this is the problem or not.
Karen
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | Also some judges have a " thing" they may prefer? like heads,or deep bodies, or ??? for example |
May ??? = handler, breeder for example?  
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doganjo
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Yup, that too   But now you are questioning integrity. Do we want to go down that road?
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Re: ConformationIs the outline more or less important than the colour which can, after all, be bred out within a couple of generations and which, if we are being honest, does not affect either their shape nor the ability of the dog to perform in the working field
I notice that no one has answered this yet I am asking about conformation not querying a judges ability to know whether or not the dog/bitch is good enough.
I'm not interested in what happens at the other end of the lead as we all know this goes on, where the judge is either not confident in his/her abilities or knows damn well that the dog is the top winner at the moment so they cannot go wrong if they put it up
Judges are a whole new subject and someone else can start that one off.
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Patricia
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I guess you are saying: there is a Sable dog in the ring who is of good shape and another who is a correct colour but long in back????
It does not come into question as the Sable is not stated in the standard as a recognised colour.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Long in back, small head, bad mouth whatever.
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johnhod
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| Quote: | I guess you are saying: there is a Sable dog in the ring who is of good shape and another who is a correct colour but long in back????
It does not come into question as the Sable is not stated in the standard as a recognised colour. |
But neither is being long in the back stated in the standard as a recognised feature. So, the question remains which is the more serious fault, as per
| Quote: | | Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog, and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work. |
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Patricia
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As far as I am aware, having a long back, flat feet, no rib etc...would not affect the ability to work? look at some Springers who are low to ground with sometimes bowed legs...
Unless a dog was seriously undershot, that may affect its job in picking up birds, but again, if you had an undersize dog, you could say it would be unable to work normal ground or sugar beet?
So, on the physical side, I can't see any faults from the standard which would affect a dog.
Order of seriousness. yes, the Brittany is a Cob, but then, it is up to the judge to establish the seriousness of the defect. Some will tolerate big ears but not big heads, some a longer back than small and no bone etc...It is up to interpretation, hence I prefer the FCI standard 
Clear and precise, and faults in order of seriousness. Do you know that loose skin under neck or around the head and jowels for example is quite a bad fault in our breed???
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Ghilliegumdrop
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So what would a judge be expected to do if the majority of dogs in a class/show were 'long cast'
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doganjo
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With-hold if they were not of suitable quality. That is always a Judge's prerogative. Obviously there are strict rules about what can and can't be with-held.
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Victoria
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Lets take another look at this...forget the Breton for a minute...imagine a line up of Blue Orpington cockerels...one was not the recognised colour range for blue...no judge would place that bird...no judge would place a mismarked Golden Guernsey...no matter HOW GOOD IT WAS...
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Victoria
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| Patricia wrote: |
Unless a dog was seriously undershot, that may affect its job in picking up birds |
Oh please don't say there is tolerance for incorrect/differing from ideal bite?????
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guy
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when in I was in Germany recently I saw them withhold breeding rights on an animal that had part of one incisor in the wrong place.
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Wyngold
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| Victoria wrote: | | Patricia wrote: |
Unless a dog was seriously undershot, that may affect its job in picking up birds |
Oh please don't say there is tolerance for incorrect/differing from ideal bite????? |
Sad to say....there IS. What it goes down to is interpretation of the written word. How tight is a correct scissors bite, is the bite correct if the upper teeth point slightly outward yet it remains in contact with lower teeth? Is it not a correct bit if the teeth are vertical and flus agains the lower teeth? Should they just slip loosley over the lower? Lots of grey areas allow in most standards so that a range of specemins can be kept and used if needed.
As to the Questions originally asked....
If I folowed the FCI standard with the new penalties set in place.
The So called Sable dog is already eliminated before we even examin the dogs hands on, just like any dog that gets measured out of the class upon entry into the ring. No question of choice there....
Now under other countries whose standards do not have a directive to judges regarding color elimination....Then it comes down to a judges "judgement". So if I had 2 dogs with acceptable color...1 long body with excellent head, moved well seemed sound, and one with perfect body but was out at elbows and a bit bowed in rear, and also had a nice head. I would probably go with the longer bodied dog for soundness reasons.....this is probably what American dogs in many case drift a bit towards longer bodies.
From a genetic breeding stand point...I know that long loins are hard to remove, and narrow back skulls hard to improve, and so I would look at the long dog to determine "how" it was long. Was it short enough in loin, but long in rib span? Or was it shallow in chest length and long in loin? For me I would accept the former and discard the later.
This is where "breeder" judges often get trapped in their officiating capacities. But having a breeder judge or "specialist" is beneficial to a breed in many cases.
JMHO
As for Germany what I have notice is total intollerance for anything having to do with the BITE. Is this because many Ger. breeds have been bred and tested for bitting in their working performances? ie Ger. Shepherd, Dobermans, Weims in the fur "kill", etc.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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[quote="Patricia"]As far as I am aware, having a long back, flat feet, no rib etc...would not affect the ability to work? look at some Springers who are low to ground with sometimes bowed legs...
But a dog of the 'wrong' colour can still work as well as a dog of the right colour.....and sometimes better
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Patricia
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It is true there were some awful specimens at the Nationale as well as some really good ones.
Colour wise, some nearly " all Black" as well as some nearly mostly white have less appeal. As with the White often comes white on ear, eye within the white blaze, and all this is very unappealing bordering ugly. but all those ugly dogs still work and no doubt well. At the end of the day, the Standard is the blue print of the breed.
I was amused to hear one judge stating the quality today was higher than some years ago and also nicely surprised our Brittanys did not look like" goats" 
I still like the very short coupled Breton with long legs, remembering some Du Sulon and St Thurial of older days.
I noticed that last year the measurements for bitches was about 49 to 50 cms. And this is good for brood bitches as they are the base material.
This year, it looked as if the judge liked a slightly smaller animal??? Comments??
Also many comments on critiques about zygomatic arches...The narrower heads seem to have none of these but a narrow skull appeared in many heads. It is difficult to be everywhere in all the rings as I often miss the Orange classes usually being in AOC class myself.
I left my bitch at home due to her lack of underneath hair having been shaved off. I needn't have worried 
Like here, you have to pick the judge who suits your type of dog best.
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doganjo
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[quote="Ghilliegumdrop"] | Patricia wrote: | As far as I am aware, having a long back, flat feet, no rib etc...would not affect the ability to work? look at some Springers who are low to ground with sometimes bowed legs...
But a dog of the 'wrong' colour can still work as well as a dog of the right colour.....and sometimes better |
I would disagree about the long backs etc - in other breeds they have different bone structure and conformation and a different way of moving, (striding out and driving from behind) so length of back is part of their make up - but I don't know any of my friends working spaniels that have flat feet. In our terrain they wouldn't get very far. Because of our breed's distinct clipped action of course it shouldn't have a long back. And how long could it work with no heart and lung room or flat feet for that matter. Remember the Brittany should fit in a box! Same height ground to withers as chest to rump bones. A number of dogs at the NE were unplaced for lack of rib cage, and I noticed they were measuring both length and height and comparing them. Certainly in Chris's ring anyway.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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My point being that if a dog could work with all the above then the colour wouldn't make a blind bit of difference
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Patricia
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Still disagree I have had longish backed Brittanys- obviously not shown!- who worked better than my short backed ones! Admittedly they don't move the same but can work as well. And flatish feet too...No problems either!!!
As for the Nationale, many were very very very fat. As for measuring the lenght and height, I thought that lady with Christian to be a bit rough. And it is obvious without need to measure both
I for sure, will not show under her when she becomes a judge
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doganjo
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Wouldn't know - don't think I've ever bred a long backed flat sided dog - not even my Cockers lol Certainly wouldn't want to keep one. But then I haven't bred much anyway.
I thought it was Christian who measured Chase, because the girl couldn't get him to stand still. He is quite firm with them though.
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Wyngold
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Was the assistant Sylvie Desserne???? or SOmeone else?
A dog can be rather unsound, long in back, out at elbows and still work if it has "heart". It is amaizing how many out of standard dogs appear in trials accross the US and they live to a ripe old age, albeit with some arthritis when they hit 9 or 10 in their pasterns, and hocks.
While for me if it is not sound they get placed as "pets" and not pushed at a "hunter" or someone who will worke heavily. Some end up hunting yes but not to the degree that a competition dog is drilled and roaded for conditioning.
But lots of dogs in the show ring get finished with bad hips, etc. One of those traits a judge cannot see with laying on of the hands. But they are still unsound!
So yes unsound dogs do and can hunt, it depends on the owner and how they keep the dog in condition, moderate weight, etc.
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Patricia
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Don't know Goldie...Jean Marc Binet told me she was the President of the French Spaniel club. I really did not care for her manners  As for Chase, he became upset in the manner he was measured beforehand. I have measured him myself and did not come to the same result
Nor did another judge...
As for breeding or having longer back than wished for Brittanys, not everything I bred is top notch( not through lack of trying though ), only a handful are of " top" quality in a litter. And believe it or not, all my best dogs are descended from an unshown bitch who was however sound but not of showing quality. What was behind her however, was excellent.
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Mugi
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I believe the assistant was Anne Geslin according to my catalogue, a google search shows she is the Secretary of the French Spaniel Club. She attempted to measure Chase first and was wafting the rather heavy implement around him to which he objected. Of course then he was determined to not cooperate when Christian measured him even though he has been happy (or at least resigned) to being measured at home.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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I don't think Chase appreciated having her grab hold of his balls to make him stand still either
Mike videoed them going over both Merlin and Chase so when I have worked out how to get rid of the 14 minutes of grass and dog poop that he also videoed I will send you a copy.
PS He didn't realise that the camera had to be switched off and not just take your finger of the button
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doganjo
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Jan, that would be very useful for anyone else thinking of going to show in France I think. If you can put it on as a link on here it would be great. I have a feeling that all the UK dogs were viewed with suspicion last Sunday! And I don't think these two judges were alone in being heavy handed. Did she really hold onto his bits? That is dreadful! I'd have complained! In whatever French I could muster!
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Patricia
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Don't worry Anne, I have aired my feelings to the secretary of the CEB!!! As he seemed surprised that Chase was the height mentionned. I did not see how she handled Chase's testicules but had a grin from Christian on asking whether we could measure...him
Sue is right, the poor boy was being quite good before with the measuring stick. But that measure was very heavy, large and square and waved about in all directions.
Another person who will remain nameless said " No English winning this year!!"
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Not sure how to link it into here from my camera, so will just have to do copies if any one wants one. They won't be too long around 15 or so minutes.
Might be an idea to have a measuring class at the club show just to get the dogs used to it, I think our measure is metal and heavy.
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doganjo
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Yes, it is made of brass. It is as heavy as the ones they used in France.
It didn't phase most of the others but it did upset Chase. I saw the look in his eyes as I was right there in front of him. She didn't really wave it around at him, but when he saw it coming he backed off and it went on from there. Poor lad was really spooked by the time Gunther came over.
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