kandjt
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ConformationOver the past few months I've been a fascinated observer of a number of interesting debates on the forum, especially those concerning the dual ability of our breed. the discussion currently unfolding in the range thread has given me much food for thought. It appears from the figures quoted in this thread, that as I neither show my dogs nor trial them, that I am a typical Brittany owner, part of the 'silent majority' you could say. Until fairly recently I would not have bothered what my dogs looked like as long as long as their working ability was up to scratch, nevertheless, I've become increasingly convinced that has an important role to play in the working characteristics of my dogs. However, in view of the fact that I have no desire or inclination to show my dogs, how do I ensure that they meet the breed standard? After much thought I would like to suggest that the Club establishes an evaluation for the conformation of a dog that would rate the dog as to how well the dog meets the breed standard of conformation. I believe that this is standard practice for most HPR breeds in mainland Europe, and I know that as long ago as 2202 it was mooted by the American Brittany Club in the USA who were concerned at the divergence between field and show in their breed.
I look forward to reading your thoughts/ideas/suggestions/alternatives on this.
Keith
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Mugi
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I personally think that is a great idea Keith, as you say - something mainland europe certainly do much more efficiently than we do.
There will still be good dogs and poor dogs out there, my first two dogs I wouldn't have dreamed of joining breed clubs or doing anything other than enjoying my pet but for people who are interested but not into showing then why not. We all know that in the show ring the dog has to learn to cope and handling is important but having a dog assessed out of the ring where neither it or the handler feel they are competing seems a good idea.
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johnhod
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Is this something that could be offered as an activity for the Saturday at Le Week-end, is there room in the programme for another activity and would anybody be prepared to judge?
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Annie as admin
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It has been done before - Pauline Beaven apparently did this. I think it was at a training day they had on their shoot grounds.
It would need to be ratified by the Committee but any of our Championship Judges could do it, as they do in France - Confirmateurs they arec alled. Monsieur Gaudin was one such.
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Patricia
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I need to point something out. It is actually " confirmation" ie: to confirm the dog resembles its breed!
But....We are not FCI, so...Remember to confirm a dog French way: the dog will have a correct bite, have no " eliminating" faults( which sadly we don't have here) ie part of the white blaze round the eye, butterfly nose, white in ear, monorchid, and size: under or over the size will not confirm the dog. And therefore, no breeding from it as no pedigree from the SCC.
That of course, is France.
I guess Keith would like a " critique" of members's dogs under UK standard, ie an assessment?
I think Margaret is the best for the job... 
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guy
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at gundog working tests 'conformation' is often offered. An experienced judge will give a written 'critique' of the dog - usually in exchange for £donation to the organising club funds.
This can be particularly valuable for those with breds not embraced by the KC.
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johnhod
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Moss went through this at the HPR international test at Loton Park last year, where we were manning the Discover HPR stand, assessed by Beate von Dwingelo-Lutten. Although he was only 16 months old she insisted that we put him in as 18 months, because she'd been telling people that she wouldn't give excellent to a dog under 18 months.
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kandjt
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Sorry about conformation - I'd just been reading an American article where they talked about conforming to the standard.
As some of you know I also shoot over Labradors and at a recent show I was horrified at the labs being shown and seriously doubt that any would last a training session never mind a day in the field. It was this experience and various posts on this and the Working HPR forums that made me think carefully about the breed standard. I realised that I lacked a working knowledge of the standard and made me wonder if this was the norm for many Brittany owners. If that is the case then it is clear that there is a need for education within the Brittany community, stating with myself.
Keith
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Britmania
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Good on you Keith for raising the suggestion of an assessment of some kind in conformation. (Sorry to digress - but my Oxford Dictionary says the definition of Conformation is "the structure or shape of something" - its the way we spell it over here too).
I believe that the show judges have an awful lot to answer for in some breeds and we see suspect conformation in plenty of breeds here - not just gundogs.
You are lucky in GB that you have a club dedicated to the well-being of the Brittany in general, and if I lived over there with you, I would be in full support of a club day where experienced analysists of conformation in the breed (ie breed judges) are able to evaluate individual dogs (not a competiton). Maybe a written critique, handed to the owner showing points of merit in the dog and undesireable features.
Some folk might not like public criticism of their dog (be it constructive or otherwise), so a written system of some kind, like scores out of ten or something, would enable a person to get an assessment for their information.
In the end, it all comes back to breeder integrity and until there is some way of policing this across the board, you may be bashing against a brick wall to try and stop indiscriminate breeding of unworthy specimens of the breed. The standard afterall is a written guide only to what a breeder should be producing from acceptable parents.
In the meantime, I believe that like it or not, the show ring is the only way of giving puppy buyers an indication of the quality of the individual dog. The system is by no means perfect, but at least it indicates that some individual judges have assessed the dog and deemed it worthy of the breed and title.
The biggest downfall of the show system is the tendancy to adhere to fashions within a breed; greed at wanting the cudos of a big winner to roll over into individual kennels and the attitude that the dogs are the means to the end (ie fame and money).
Chris
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guy
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conformation / confirmation
don't forget the French require the dog to be inspected by an accredited judge before it can have its pedigree papers
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johnhod
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You are confirming that it conforms to standard, so either word will do for me, but I understand Patricia's desire to retain French terminology.
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Patricia
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In the " confirmation" examination, the judge is qualified to do so. Most Ch juges are also " confirmateurs".You get a written critique signed by the judge.
When you have this( and it can be done at someone's kennels, at shows or other ...) When this is done, you will receive the proper pedigree for your dog.
Now...you could do something similar in the UK. Without being a show.
You will need a good judge who won't mind putting forward good and bad points.( because they all have them in degrees!)
And if the bad points are numerous...whether you breed from them is another story!
Don't forget when you buy a puppy to state if for pet, showing or work.
The potential working puppy may be more independant and inquisitive, a soft and placid nature is better for a pet...etc...But this must be born in mind when purchasing..as well as where it is from.
Sometimes a pet person buys a pup and decides to show it. Some of the breeders then can cringe if a less good animal goes into the ring 
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Some times you can buy a puppy, with so-called show potential, and everyone cringes when it eventually goes in the ring 
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Annie as admin
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As this would not be an 'official' thing perhaps it could be included in the TAN day activities - this would be up to Guy to put forward to the Committee. I doubt if you would get any of the regular show goers but newer owners might benefit from this.
I would suggest that the dogs would best be assessed by two Championship Judges if we can arrange that. Each dog should have a written critique and discretion should be used as to being within hearing the others awaiting 'confirmation'. A scedule of important points could be printed out and marked up for each dog, with a total out of 100(or 10 if you wish) given for each dog.
Not sure what time I'd have as I am doing a Breed Talk as well as keeping an eye on the Shop and cash, and I have a feeling Margaret and Kathy are also doing something - can't remember what right now  perhaps some others could be approached? Over to you, Guy 
Annie
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