| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
consequences of the BBC programmePoor pedigree dogs are having a rough time of it lately.Like if everything was just black and white, and everybody bad people 
It is funny that lately, I am getting emails which differ from the usual questions...Not, can you tell me more about Brittanys, exercise, we live in the country, like what we read about the breed... Not at the moment. : 
This is what I am being asked: Do you hip score your dogs, and ...are they inbred??? Many novices would not have a clue about this subject, never mind trying to explain LINE breeding. Because the BBC has said Pedigree dogs have all the worst faults in the world, it must come from the fact they are" inbred" When I ask: do you know what it involves, few do. 
The 77 year old gentleman who came to see me ( in my previous post) asked me if they were -inbred-  I told him Baileys and Chase were line bred.( to Lorca, my Ch) and that I had doubled up on him as I wanted his qualities. To which I was told : and his defects ...as if....
I only did this after nearly 11 years of having him. I more often outcross to complement a bitch in an area where she needs it. Saying this, my new bitch, Chriss des Sous les Viviers is line bred to Crak( same affix) and many of the great French dogs are line bred to Varim des Sources Claires, his sire. It is about selection. If a dog is outstanding, then many will choose to " double up"on him. On the hip subject, the health issues were seriously highlighted in the programme. As I read the letters in Dog World, it is becoming obvious, people will be asking more about health tests and also many more questions. And even look up the relevant info on the net. I was interested to read the Irish Red and White worked with the KC to not register any pups from parents non tested for CLAD( early death of puppies) Results of all this: some are turning to the crossbreds( not realising they have problems too) or rescue dogs.( who have even bigger behavioural issues) which not everyone is capable of solving. Let's hope this settles down soon, but I wonder if this will have repercussions. |
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| Jayne Cutler |
Has anyone read the News Release from the Kennel Club which arrived in the post today relating to the BBC programme 'Pedigree dogs exposed'?
It makes interesting reading. Jayne |
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| doganjo |
Yes, I've scanned through mine - I need to sit down with a cuppa and digest it tonight (nothing on TV on a Saturday anyway!)
I wonder if we will miss the RSPCA and Dogs Trust not being at Crufts? The KC seem to be taking further action too - going to the ombudsman about the programme. It is all very interesting, you are absolutely right. Annie |
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| guy |
who gets this post out? and does it deserve a wider audience? | ||||||||
| eddieh |
Yes, I think it does! (Just in case the hint wasn't taken.) 
Seriously. I know that there were points raised in the programme which are valid and warrant serious attention, but, I'm sure I saw "the Queen storming out" on a few occasions, which made me wonder about what was and what wasn't reasoned argument. Sorry Patricia, this has gone a little off topic. Eddie |
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| guy |
I am sure all this will settle down as the media move on to their next quick hit / target.
However they have raised points that need to be addressed and should not be put aside once the spotlight has been removed. IMHO dogs should not be bred to achieve 'improvements' which impact negatively on their health - cannot breath properly as their nasal passages are to short, cannot control body heat, skull size/brain volume disparity etc. Likewise dogs who have health problems should not be bred from, and this is why hip scoring, for example, should be an absolutely integral part of the breeding programme and some standards set to ensure that only healthy stock contributes to the next generation. Genetics is a tool - the only tool we have to improve animal stock. It rules our world and the natural world - in the natural world the poor specimens die - we call it natural selection. In pedigree dogs this is achieved rarely nowadays by culling but by maintaining breeding restrictions on progeny. The breed standard sets the standard for conformation, the core fundamental points of the standard are just that fundamental to a breed we must take care not to focus purely on cosmetics. In UK the Brittanys have a further hurdle to contend with - we have the KC standard and there is the French standard. There are subtle differences that are influencing the direction the breed is taking in this country. I would refer people to Louvet's book L'Epagneul Breton p57/8 for the French take on this. If divergence from the standard was 'eliminating', if health issues were monitored, dual purpose measured and all this seen to be happening then we would go a long way towards settling public concerns. Final thoughts All the meat we eat is the product of genetic selection through line breeding. a most interesting article here explaining line breeding and how and why it works http://www.cattle-sale.net/articl...rovement-Through-Linebreeding.htm |
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| sallie |
'I would refer people to Louvet's book L'Epagneul Breton p57/8 for the French take on this'. Could you not give a brief outline Guy as i haven't got this book - plus i only speak school-girl French 
I have been looking around for another Brittany, thinking about one for maybe two years time (gives me plenty of time for homework) - the European dogs all seem a lot leaner and leggier than the British Brittany and perhaps what i am reading a lot more versatile. Seeing pictures of the old standard the French dog especially seems to be holding the true characteristics of the breed... in that they are cobby, without prejudice and in MHO i feel we are breaking away from this standard opting more for a shorter, square looking dog... surley this has something to do with the breed standard set out by the KC? In MHO the KC want to inprint their own design into every dog, regardless whether-or-not it is good for the breed. We should follow the French, as after all, it is a French dog! I have no T.V. i read, so what i read influences me, - not some reporter!
Oh well, back to doing some more research - i will find that all round supreme champion 
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| doganjo |
Not sure what you mean by European dogs. Can you maybe explain where you have seen them - is it in books, or in the flesh? The French and German dogs are mostly like ours. The Scandinavian ones are mostly a mix of Americn and French lines, and they can be leggier, but also longer backed, so they tend to come away from the French cobby look. As for being leaner, that depends an awful lot on how much work they do. A lot of the UK dogs that you see may be at shows and not all of them are worked or exercised. Any you might see on shoots would be leaner maybe but should still carry a good rounded rib cage. Allez was far from lean for a while as I hadn't had him out much but he is in much better condition now (as I am  ). You must remember leanness might be synonymous with lack of ribcage.
The best way to find another dog is to come to club events if you can. You could then ascertain what type you might want. Books are fine but the best way is seeing the actual dogs that are around. (Obviously France is the best place but not always possible for many of us )
Jean Louvet's book is excellent, but it is in French and I must admit I struggle. Perhaps Patricia might translate that particular section for you.
To a certain extent you could be right, but they have tried to 'standardise' the standards to make them easier to compare, not to re-model the breeds. Annie |
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| johnhod |
I'll leave it to others, who were involved in setting the UK breed standard to explain the problems involved in getting the KC to accept the French standard | ||||||||
| doganjo |
The French Standard and the French Club come under the auspices of the FCI (Federation Cynologique Internationale). Our KC is not a member of the FCI. In addition our KC does not provide for fault eliminations in the standards whereas the FCI does.
Annie |
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| sallie |
'shorter, square looking dog' - by this i meant squat, short legs in comparison to the ribs (body) terminology not my thing - i hunt!
'un maximum de qualite dans un volume minimum' - i'm not sure, but didn't i read somewhere that the ribs (body) and leg length are meant to be the same - thus cob. If breeders are not careful, which you (Annie) and Patricia are, the Brittany will lose its leg length the same way as the ESS has lost theirs and now this short leg stance is the adopted KC standard - it happened over a period of time, but it has happened. But anyway - i digress away from the thread and whilst i do that - Allez looks a fine, fit and a healthy dog to me.
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| guy |
Sallie there is a thread you may have missed http://thebrittanyforum.myfreeforum.org/sutra11326.php#11326 exploring the interpretation of 'cob' | ||||||||
| Patricia |
Sallie, there are many more breeders on here...Just Anne and I are probably more vocal...  and not English( it helps!  )
If you read my description of a Cob, you will see what I mean. I am a " purist" and follow the FCI standard in my head, I have also been in the ring with French judges and helped with a Conformation seminar in the USA with Jacques Bordet. as well as the TAN. One of " My" things is: I like a real Cob who has lenght of leg. Because I also work my dogs, they need to hunt in sugar beet, a 44 or 45 cms dog will struggle. Though they have a big heart, it will be much harder. I don't do " squat". My stud dog Athos has long legs and covers one heck of a lot of ground very quickly!
I quote from Jean Louvet's book, Professeur Triquet: " the British standard is only a glance, an impression" There were some beautiful Bretons in 1998. As for the British breeds, they were far too pretty to be efficient. There is a divide between the working type and the show dog. We advise our clubs in France to do " good and beautiful" |
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| doganjo |
Check that link Guy put on for the thread on explanations of 'cob'
Steve, Jayne, Barbara, Joanne, Joy and others who also are on the forum, are breeders too - they are all on here. There may be others who have had one or two litters. Like Patricia, I've also been in the ring with French judges, and they are very vocal as to what they like. A critique is given on the spot, written for the owner to take away and also quite often the Judge tells the 'audience' his views on the dogs. We aren't allowed to do that, nor do an 'on the spot' critique - we aren't given enough time to do that apart from anything else. Here's one cob with decent length of leg. I'm sure the rest of them will have others they can post to let you see what we have in the UK. 
Click to see full size image |
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| sallie |
Guy - thanks for the thread, it did tidy up some questions i had regarding shape.
Annie - thats a very good looking dog Patricia - Thanks for the info... 45cm thats quite short for a Brittany isn't it? Monet is 51cm and i thought that was short, but reading the KC breed standard he is above average Nice to hear that the UK are still breeding long legs in their dogs, it must be the photo's i am looking at that make them look short legged!
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| Patricia |
Sallie, Monet at 51 cms is still in the standard. You have a 1 cm tolerance.
I would rather 51 than 49 for a male. Ideally 50cms , but nothing is ever perfect. When I work out how to put a pic on here, I will send you a pic of...of long legs... Don't worry Salie, there are plenty of us on here who wnat to keep the breed dual purpose and it is encouraging
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