| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Annie as admin |
EndorsementsYou may discuss endorsing puppies on this thread. May I start the ball rolling?I endorse both dog and bitch puppies. As a KC Accredited Breeder I must inform all buyers of this and it must be written into the Contract of Sale. When the pups have reached the age of two years my buyers will be invited to let me know their puppy's hip score and their Vet's assessment of their health. At that point if the up is fit and well, and the hips are on or below the current breed average (17 at the moment), and fairly level, I will write to the KC and lift the endorsement. These can ONLY be lifted by the Breeder but it is an inherited action, so my children after me could lift this. At NO time will I lift the endorsement prior to 2 years, even in the case of a misalliance. My buyers are all informed of this. I do not put a restriction on which matings are done, that is up to them, but my buyers all know the lines I use and will be assisted in making a good decision. Only the Breeder will receive notification of the lifting of the endorsement so it is then up to the Breeder to inform the buyer. Annie |
||
| The Plum |
Annie, where endorsements are concerned I feel that once the breeder has taken money for a pup , that pup no longer belongs in any way to the breeder. He or she has no rights over it.
The fact that the breeder has went to the trouble of choosing a stud dog etc. is neither here nor there. The pups new owner should have the right to make that same decision . To deny the purchaser that decision is to say you do not trust him. It is therefor I.M.O. hypocritical to take his money !!! If you do not trust him , do'nt sell him a pup ! Keep the puppies and do without the money. I will not buy a pup with an endorsement attached. The pup is either mine or it is the breeders. If the breeder wants the pup then the pup should not be up for sale. Endorsements are for control freaks - if you cannot tolerate losing control then I.M.O. you should not breed puppies. The Plum |
||
| Annie as admin |
I didn't say that - read my posts! All I hold endorsements for is for the good of the health of the breed. I do NOT control what the puppy buyer wants to breed them too - all I do is assist with the decision IF they want it. I will lift endorsement IF the dog is pronounced fit and well by their vet and if the hips are good enough. Regarding the above, obviously the Kennel Club doesn't agree with you or they wouldn't have that option on the litter pack form Annie |
||
| Patricia |
Well Bill, count me in with " the control freaks!!"  
I 'll tell you why I endorsed. I had a Falconer who bred one of my bitches very young -at 15 months- she may even have had the pups by then...He lost the KC reg, asked for a second set...which I refused to do. Found them and so that was that. Then, at the Falconry fair, a gentleman ( having used my import Gallo de St Thurial) was wondering round trying to " flog" one of his puppies for a silly low price. Yes, maybe it is his right, and yes, you are at liberty not to buy from people like us...Very true. I also don't like  finding some of my stud's progeny in rescue or rehoming centres. ( So, now I tattoo as well)
And even worth now, Bill, I ask people who want to use my stud dogs ( usually from France) to endorse their puppies, so that makes me doubly bad. Joanne appears to have the same ethics as myself!!! Having had dealings and been upset at times with the rescue for 3 years... I want the least possible " casualties" because at the end of the day.It is the dog that suffers. If you do the job, do it as best you can? I am not doing it to be an "ogre" but simply like to communicate and discuss lines etc...about future breeding stock. Forgive me for my sins! 
|
||
| Mugi |
Well, I have 2 dogs with endorsements and 2 without. I knew that the two had endorsements and as such made my choice at the time I handed over my money - I could take the dog/pup I wanted or look elsewhere.
In the first case I wanted to get the dog out of a bad situation and with his subsequent behavioural issues and health issues, even though probably all can be put down to his early nuture (or lack of) I would never breed from him so getting his endorsement lifted would be a moot point. In the second case, I wanted the pup - I understand the breeder retains the right to lift the endorsement or not at her discretion and after certain requirements have been met. I accepted those conditions at the time of purchase and nothing has changed in my mind - I am glad I have the pup I have. With the two dogs who aren't endorsed - well Mugi is too old to be considered to use at Stud and as Liz and I know he was very weak on one hip when I got him. That tone built up but as he is now getting less sound I see him rolling the leg more - whether that is a problem with HD, a previous injury or whatever is immaterial and his hip would only be x-rayed if it were to affect health management. Finally we have the big man, he has no endorsements although his breeder endorsed the rest of the litter. If he had grown up with better feet (his major fault) then he may well have been approached for use but he is a dog not quite up there with the best (although I couldn't have a better deerhound from behaviour and brightness point of view) and although I could use him I won't. Interestingly his 2 proper stud enquiries have been for longdog crosses and as such would not be affected by any endorsement as pups would not be registered anyway! |
||
| Annie as admin |
Well, Allez is not endorsed(except that I can't flee the country with him but I wouldn't want to leave my beloved Scotland anyway!), but that did not affect my purchase in any way. HE was the dog pup I chose at 3 weeks and that was that. However, had ne not had a 4/3 hip score and be a goodlooking dog as well as, it would seem, a good worker (he is held back by me, nothing else) then I would not have bred from him regardless of whether he had an endorsement of not.
Belle was endorsed which is why her first litter bred by her previous owner cannot be registered nor their progeny. When I took her Joanne said she would lift the endorsement without me even asking. The point is this is done for Breed health and the health of the dog. It is ridiculous to make a puppy have puppies before they are mature themselves and endorsement may not stop that but if it is made clear to the buyer from the outset it makes them think twice. I don't know anyone stupid enough to go ahead with a mating without having the endorsement lifted first - well I do I suppose, Belle's previous owner
Annie |
||
| Jayne Cutler |
endorsementsIf we accept endorsements as a way of ensuring control over breeding issues, what do we do if it generates unregistered litters bearing in mind paragraph 6 in the Brittany Club Code of Conduct?Is it not better to have as many Brittany's registered as possible? Jayne |
||
| Annie as admin |
Not sure what you mean, Jayne? Clause 6 says - to save you all looking for it -
If a breeder only breeds from registered stock then that fulfils Clause 6. Any dog that is bred by them and which is then bred from is not the responsibility of that breeder, it is the reponsibility of the new owner. A responsible breeder will keep in touch with their buyers and find out if their pup has been bred from or they want to breed from it - an endorsement can be lifted retrospectivley too, so a breeder has the option to lift it if a dog they bred has subsequently been also bred. That is the whole point of the endorsement - it is at the discretion of the Breeder. Hope that explains it? Annie |
||
| The Plum |
It still boils down to you taking money for an animal from someone whom you do not believe capable of making his own good decisions as to a pups well being. If you do not trust the would be buyer then do not sell him a pup.
I feel too much emphasis is being put on the physical side of things. If an endorsement that does not allow a dog to be bred from is fine by you if a dog does not achieve a satifactory hip score then what about testing it for its mental suitabilties to be a gundog ? I have bred only from bitches that have done very well in field trials - sometimes in multiple field trials.How many others in this country , on this forum, can say the same? I have done this no matter what breed was involved - I do not breed from stock unproven in the field. Up to present that has meant having pieces of paper signifying trial wins. If I were to endorse my pups from those litters saying that the buyers could only breed to my say so having won or at least been placed in several trials with the pup I had sold them - how fair would that be ? I do agree it is better to have a hip testing scheme than nothing at all but surely the same thing applies - for the good of the breed - to mental capabilities in the field and the only "test" of that is with an impartial adjudicator looking on and giving awards - or not - is in field trials. You would not take my word as to the state of a dogs hips or health before cancelling the endorsement, why should I take your word about its working potential ? In both cases the piece of paper from the independent adjudicator should be shown. How many Brit pups would get sold each year if the sire and dam had to be "trial ability endorsed ?" That would be to the good of the breed but I don't see or even hear of any Brittany breeders doing that ! Folk like me would jump for joy if that were to happen but we all know it's not going to - double standards I think . A dogs mental abilities for work need tested too but breeding only from trial tested dogs would leave this country very short of Brittanies ! The Plum |
||
| johnhod |
Forgive me if I've misunderstood this Jayne, but I think you have the same concerns as me. If dogs are to be pets or worked (not trialled) there is nothing to stop breeders from mating a dog and/or bitch with an endorsement, as the progeny need not be registered with the KC. Maybe this is why we are seeing Bringers and Brockers being sold for silly money. Although I'd never come across endorsements prior to getting into Brittanys I can see the point in placing them on dogs that are going to homes where the knowledge of the breed and its foibles is an unknown quantity. However, it could be argued that some breeders will use it as a way of maintaining a deliberately low availability of dogs. |
||
| highclare |
May I tell you something about endorsments.
I have just had a litter of Welsh Springers, it is my A line which I have nerturing for over 25 years without a break. In WSS there is a problem with Glocoma (in other words closed angles at the back of the eye), we were all told to get all breeding stock tested. I did so with my bitch and she was clear. She had one litter and then 4 weeks before this litter she developed Glocoma, out of the blue. I took her to the animal health trust and they removed the eye. A terrible trauma for a bitch just about to have pups and a terrible trauma for my pocket! She is fine and had her pups with no problems. Now you try selling pups with a mum with one eye, not easy. I will reduce the price so that all pups will have there eyes tested. The chance that all pups will be effected is low but it is my responsability to the breed that this problem dose not get into anyone elses lines and if I endorse all my pups then even if one of the puppy buyers breeds from one of the pups without testing they will not be KC registered so will not get into the breeding lines. Please don't beleive that if you endorse your pups that it makes you a control freek that is wrong. There is nothing wrong in caring about your pups lets face it the breeder choose the dog to mate the bitch, then watched the bitch grow bigger feeding carfully. spends hours usual in the middle of the night helping the bitch have the pups. Cleaning, caring, worring and being on call day and night for pups and mum. Then seeing puppy buyers (which I hate) choosing the best homes. So trying to protected the onward journey of that pups by endorsing the pups for its health and safety is fine by me. |
||
| Patricia |
"it as a way of maintaining a deliberately low availability of dogs."
We all know these dogs are not the easiest in the world and as much advice from the breeder is helpful in those matters. We cannot emphasise enough that these dogs are gundogs and do not have the behaviour of the Labrador 
Many cannot sell their pups as it is... Do we really need an explosion in rescue? Bill, you are entitled to your opinions..like we are
|
||
| Patricia |
I understand where you are coming from Gill...Good on you
|
||
| Mugi |
Sorry to read about your bitch Gill, it must have been a shock.
Hope all the pups get good loving homes and have no problems themselves. |
||
| johnhod |
According to KC categorisation maybe. But I'd be interested to know how many club members and particularly how many breeders work their gundogs, and to what standard. (IMHO a free running dog that sometimes trips over a bird or rabbit does not qualify as working) |
||
| Annie as admin |
Gill, that is horrendous, how dreadful for you. I take it your own bitch wasn't endorsed. How on earth can that Glaucoma appear when testing has been done down the line - has someone been dishonest with one of her ancestors do you think?
John - whether all Brittanys are worked or not is a separate thread, let's keep it separate from endorsements, if you wouldn't mind Annie |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
As I have said before....if you breed the pups you can endorse them before you sell them and also make any other arrangment providing the buyer is informed before money changes hands, but, and it is a very big but, if the original buyer sells that pup on and it is subsequently bred from without having had any health checks, I believe that the KC will register the pups despite the endorsement. The supposition is that the second buyer has not entered into a contract with the breeder and therefore cannot be held [in law] to the contract or the endorsements. Whether this is correct now I don't know, but I did know someone who had this happen with a puppy which she bred [not, I hasten to add, a Cavalier] it was endorsed but the first owner sold it on and it had a litter at a very young age. The person who bred it only found out because she took the breed supplement.... | ||
| Mugi |
Annie, as far as I am aware (having a WSS and knowing Glaucoma is a risk) I believe there are two types of Primary Glaucoma (which is what I am assuming is the cause as there is also a Secondary Glaucoma). At the present time only one type is tested for with gonioscopy and the other does not seem to have the same hereditary linkage which to me indicates you could have a clear result quite legitimately and then go onto develop the other form. To find out more check out the BVA Eye Scheme page, they have a good PDF document. Proviso to above is that I have not read up the subject in huge detail so could be talking a load of drivel and obviously not knowing the history of the dog mentioned I obviously can't comment with specifics. |
||
| Mugi |
I think that still applies Jan - a second sale will negate any breeder imposed endorsements. |
||
| highclare |
Jan you are quite correct.
Glocoma. Primary is heredititary and secondry is if the animal has a trauma on the eye. It is as simple as that. The problem is that the older the animal gets the worse the eyes becomes (like humans). With my bitch even though she was clear at 1 year old the angles had changed and closed. The worst thing was that when the vet looked into the other eye he said the eye was terrible and he couldn't beleive he wasn't looking at an eye with Glocoma, She will go blind in about 1 years time. To answer your question Annie I bred the bitch and the sire (who is clear) at the moment. I have always endorsed my pups if I think there may be a slight health problem until the dog is at least 3 years old (for Epilepsy), or if the dog has had its hips scored and I like the score or if the eyes are tested and they are clear just before breeding. Of course that is for Welsh I still have to learn what problems the Brit has on the health side yet before I think of breeding The Mabeleen. Gill and that Mabeleen 
|
||
| The Plum |
I'm sorry, I do not understand this statement. First of all are we talking about gundogs that actually work ? Only the ones that work as gundogs are gundogs the others are gundogs in name or by breed only. They are pet dogs they may even win in a "gundog " show ring but they are not Gundogs. "the behaviour of the labrador " the same applies - are we talking about the showring trundlers or about the athletic, alert animals of the working type ? Brittanies do not work as the labrador works I agree but if you think that high quality labrador work is easy then please think again. Many good handlers with good dogs try to win in the labrador trial world - so many that it is actually harder to win a trial with a labrador than it is with a Brittany. The standard of work expected in a lab trial is very high. I feel qualified to say these things because I suspect I am the only one on this forum who has taken both labs and brittanys to their respective Championships , I have won trials with both breeds. For all that it is not the custom of the labrador trialling people to put endorsements on their puppies. I did not and I bred a Field Trial Ch. If the lab folk can manage without endorsements, why can't the Brits ? To endorse a litter or not is up to the breeder, but I think the breeders concern for the breed is stopping short of ensuring that the Brits being bred from can do the job. My blinkers are off, I see that endorsements could perhaps help health aspects of the breed - - - what about the other aspects ? The ones that make the breed worth having if you really want to work one ? When do the endorsements begin for that ? For a breed that is meant to be a gundog, but which in so many hands very often is not, a "working endorsement " is long overdue. The Plum |
||
| The Plum |
I hadn't read this before I posted. It would appear that endorsements are a waste of time if they do not hold up in law. I could buy from an endorsed litter, "sell" the pup to a friend then buy it straight back again with the endorsement automatically and by law , lifted ! If that is correct ,which it seems to be, then the K.C. is taking the endorsing breeders money for nothing !!! If that is the case this discusson is a waste of time 
The Plum. |
||
| highclare |
Well the Plum really has a hang up about show dogs.
Don't you think that people have dogs for all sorts of reasons, a companion, to show, to work, to do flyball, agility, obedience, dance to music what ever and just because they have chosen a Brittany that means that they have to work it. NO It is fun but people have different lives they have familys, some are not fit enough, some just dont have the time, but all can enjoy the Brit surly. No one should dictate to another that the word Gundog means you have to work the thing. Gill and The Mabeleen (who would like to work) |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Soooo....are you now saying that Labradors are not gundogs just because they are Labradors  I have a feeling that a lot of people who work and trial their 'Labradors' may take exception to that
Gill, the Plum does not have a hangup about all showdogs, just the ones that are not capable of doing a days work [when given the opportunity] 
He does, in fact, think that Ghillie is wonderful and it's a pity about her handler, but there again he has seen her 'working'
The majority of Brittanys may well be capable of working given the chance but how many get that chance
PS I see we are going off the subject AGAIN
|
||
| The Plum |
I disagree Gill, the Brittany is meant to be a gundog. Not using them as such and then breeding from good working results will eventually lead them down the path of other supposed gundogs that are now showdogs.
When I buy a Brittany a showdog is not what I want. There are already dozens of dog breeds suitable as pets , showdogs, fundogs etc. - but if you lose the Brits work instincts through ill- use or no use you will lose the very thing that IS the Brittany. If all you want is one of the things mentioned then I think you are doing the Brittany breed a dis-service - if you breed from your Brit. Where a gundogs working ability is concerned it is a case of use it or lose it. "IT" has been lost to so many other working breeds that ,in case you have not noticed, there is now a split between the work and show types of many gundog breeds. This covers labradors, goldies , cocker spaniels , springer spaniels and god knows how many more ! This is beginning to happen in the H.P.R. world too, many Weimaraner owners have expressed concerns about this. The Brittany could join the ranks of those dogs if we fail to test for its work ability. The Plum |
||
| Patricia |
Ohhhhhhhhhhh...Bill chill!
This is only a debate!!! I apologise to Anne in advance and will now stop. By gundog I mean a dog who will still follow its instinct ( which is still there whatever you say) It is up to the handler to harness and chanel it. Because of the speed and hunting passion of the Brittany, many find it difficult to understand and cope with. Unlike the pace of a" non trialing Lab" should I say. Everybody has Labs around here, I guess that is because they are easier to deal with??? Some breeders may not tell potential buyers of the passion for hunting of the Brittany. When I ran the rescue- along with Anne- the main reason for getting rid of the dog was they ran off- and took themselves hunting. Those dogs end up in rescue. They were in the wrong hands. I have had those dogs since 14 years old. Heard too many sad stories. Yes, I try to make people think...and yes, I have endorsed for very many years now. And yes also, I have lifted endorsements...if I think the person will take responsability for the litter they have brought into the world, take back dogs if a death ,divorce or else takes place...or help rehome. I will no longer rattle Bill, promise!
|
||
| johnhod |
At the risk of going off topic can I ask how many dogs, on average, go into rescue in a year? | ||
| Annie as admin |
We onlky see the ones that are recognised as Brittanys. We have seena few on dog home websites but they won't release them to us. Less than 10 a year though us. | ||
| Lin Dyke |
My local rescue centre now has the pics from last years calendar and my 'phone number if they need any help identifying a possible Brit'. | ||
| The Plum |
Do you disagree then Patricia that the way to split a breed into work - show is to only work it or only show it ? If I will only buy from proven working stock while others will only buy from dogs doing well in the ring - proven show stock ,isn't that the start of the split ?
At least I have shown a Brittany - two actually , the other was in a little country show. If I remember correcly I came in 2nd or 1st at the country show. It really didn't count ,the other dogs were not Brittanies. I won the other show against very limited opposition in terms of numbers but that's not something that I can control. At least I have tried ! How many of the Brit folk competing in shows have done as much in trials - how about some reciprocal effort ? From where I stand looking at things it isn't me the work minded bloke that hates shows - it's you show folk who must hate trials ! The only other possibilty is that you won't even try because you fear failure. If you never try you can go on saying that your dog could do it ........... IF
I have done a bit of the show stuff but I have waited a long, long time to see the show folk reciprocate and make a real effort to train and work their dogs - if not trial them ! The Plum P.S. By train and work them I do not mean turning up for club fun days once or twice a year ! Those are like Teddy Bears picnics for dogs ! They can be good fun but they are not much else unless the work is continued and built upon. |
||
| Patricia |
Bill, are you adressing me? If so...this is my thinking. Having brought 2 Keranlouan , I could hardly leave them and just shoot at home.
Ivry was graded on spring pointing test under Nigel Cox. I had never entered anything like it. Very nervous especially with Maureen Nixon behind me.
My husband has handled her son Lorca in trials and he has an award. As well as his show gundog certificate( I know it does not rate highly!). Had we been more experienced we would have done much more I am sure. But we all have to start somewhere and I did not know Rory then
I trialed Ivry's grand daughter at Bunwell where she was awarded a COM at her second trial. She was slowing down in the beet and later found she had developed an illness and I can no longer run her. 
Her son received a second in working test too. Athos had a grading in the BCGB SPT this spring. As for right now, I had an op on my ankle which causes me grief and find it difficult to walk on uneven ground. But I hope my Ch Toscane will trial this season ( with Alan) I bred Jiji too, dam of dual ch Amber. ( and neither parents had awards in the field!!) But the breeding was there! Teddy bear picnics...by those reunions, you learn a lot and if it helps people take that plunge into having a go, then it has to be good? Sorry Anne for digressing.... |
||
| Mugi |
Going to continue the digression for a mo .
Bill, I understand what you are saying by Teddy Bears Picnics in a sense and the real work comes outside these training sessions BUT............. A club training session got me started working with Mugi to better understand the breed, he has the talent but I needed the confidence to access the right resources and the training days helped me get a foothold. From there things have snowballed and I have himself who I dearly want to get to the point I can compete with - I doubt I will do him full justice (a little like Patricia with his daddy I am on a steep learning curve) but we are prepared to put the work in and try. So for people like me who are not from traditional gundog working/ country backgrounds it was a great way to get me started. The days fulfill different things for different people and for me the most important aspect is the tips and ideas I can pick up as much as the actual training. At the last day I deliberately chose to put Chase in Intermediate as opposed to Puppy as although he wasn't ready for some of the stuff he was more advanced than many of the pups and would have really not benefitted from that level - I also learned more by watching the other dogs and handlers, learning from both mistakes and successes. |
||
| highclare |
Well Plum what a load of rubbish you get hot under the coller about. Also right off the subjuct of endorsments. It is good to have your say of course but it has gone behond that with you. As I said people have Brits for there own reasons and if you are happy to only work or trial them then good on you but it takes all sorts to make a world and if it wasn't for the breeders careing about breeding for type and looks then you would be trialing just a funny looking little dog that people would not know what it was.
I my experience not many trainers in the trialing world can train a Welsh springer as it means really training them and not just buying in a spaniel which is from trialing lines, that is easy. Gill and the Mabeleen. |
||
| The Plum |
Well Gill you talk the usual show twaddle and make the usual show excuses for you and your dogs inabilties. I have won and done both show and trial work - have you ?
Allow me to point out that show dogs from the gundog breeds , the labs ,spaniels etc. cannot even begin to work as well as the real thing - the dogs you in your ignorance say you you would find hard to recognise. The breed you mention - the Welsh Springer , is a case in point . Taken over by the show world it now needs a pro trainer to get much out of as a worker. You will see very few of them at shoots because although they still have a nose the willingness to work with a handler has not been bred for - it isn't needed to trot around a ring with a lead on - is it ??? It may not have crossed your mind ,stuck inside a showring as it is, but real gundogs are part of a multi million pounds business - nearly good enough dogs just aren't enough ! It may also have escaped your attention that a wounded bird needs to be found quickly and despatched. The dog sent has to be good enough to track that bird down and then bring it back. By comparison to all of the gundogs, by name only, parading around the show rings, very few of them would be capable of doing that - the ability and willingness to do so has been lost by breeding for the show ring by people with the same scant regard for a dogs working qualities as you show . Use it or lose it . Take a really good and for once honest look at show conformation. For the majority of gundogs it just doesn't work ! Their work bred counterparts that you claim are hard to recognise (poor you) are still out there doing the job they were designed by sheer hard work to do. I am trying to avoid the Brittany going down the same path as all of those other showdogs. It is a prime candidate for it. Stand back and take a clear look. The proportions of Brittanys in very keen show hands compared to very keen working hands are strongly biased towards the show side of things . This forum shows that clearly. On a working gundog orientated forum I would not have to argue/discuss this, my opinions on the importance of breeding for work would be regarded as every day common sense. It may surprise you to learn that I am thought of as very moderate , even show orientated in my views among working gundog people
This forum has a plentitude of people willing and very capable of arguing for the show side of things. Why do you think it is not correct for a very few people on this forum to argue passionately with the intention of improving the dogs work ? The Plum |
||
| highclare |
As I said you talk rubbish PLUM. I have won 23 field trial awards with my Welsh springers with the same dogs I made them up into full champions,
won at many show and I mean won not a 2nd at a country show. I have worked all my welsh and have 6 generations of show gundog working cirtificates. I have won ALL the Welsh and Minor breeds working tests and I am a working judge on the B Kennel Club trials pannel. So DO NOT tell me about working you are not on my startig blocks and you know nothing about me or much out side your blinkers. I have 1 Brit and I intend to work and trail her she is also a Show Champion and I think a good one. I am proud of my achievements with her and I love her to death as a pet. Oh by the way I go shooting every week in the season with my Welsh at a shoot who has 4 good working welsh on it, I am also training a show champion AM Cocker to its Gundog working Cirt for Mike Gadsby. Gill and the Mabeleen So I have a Brit who looks like a Brit has been bred like a Brit who shows like a Brit and I think in time will work like one. And by the way is endorsed so I get the hips x-rayed before breeding, OK 
|
||
| Patricia |
This is getting fun!!!!
|
||
| yarak |
Excellent post Gill and well done on your achievements keep up the good work .
where do you find the time
I am sure training the Mabeline will be the hardest task yet
Is the Plum volunteering to help us very enthusiastic but novice handlers. Who do not work to field trial standard, but do enjoy working their Brits with Falcons and hawks and training them to the best of their ability. A lot of us mere mortals Bill are very enthusiastic and very willing to learn, not everyone has tunnel vision to the show ring. Why not come along to the training weekend and gives us some help and encouragement?????? |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Why ask Bill to come all the way from Scotland when we have Gill in the club. Training WSS is a very hard job and as she has managed to do so well shouldn't we ask her to come to the training day and pass on tips etc I'm sure you would be up for it...hey Gill
|
||
| Mugi |
Like Gill I have both breeds and for definite I can say both are challenging but not wanting to put words in Gill's mouth I think there are many aspects that are similar - WSS are sometimes difficult to motivate when retrieving as they are bright, opinionated and often easily distracted into doing their own thing. I take my hat off to anyone who can get a WSS to perform when expected to, they love to humiliate their handlers but there are some out there that can do the job on the day, my shoot has a very good WSS who works all season, rarely puts a paw wrong and is off show lines (not mine I hasten to add as he is very noise phobic).
I went to a WSS Working Test the other week and the dogs and handlers did well, esp when considering that many were the dreaded show handlers or total novices, the standard of work was consistent and the dogs were no worse than the ESS and Cockers I have seen at comparative levels although the handlers had to be more inventive to keep the dogs mind on the job! Brittanys though are a whole different ball game as hunting a Brittany is not like hunting many other HPR's let alone a spaniel. I am confident that Gill would be able to give us all many tips regarding retrieving but like a lot of us new to the breed owners we all need help understanding the fantastic noses on our dogs! |
||
| The Plum |
Gill , I have won, with various breeds, so many tests that I grew tired of them and pretty much ceased competing. I did enter an H.P.R. puppy test last year before I found out that dogs were still considered to be pups right up to 18 months. I considered withdrawing since my pup was just 6 months. I did not withdraw I competed and we won. The other dogs were all considerably older than mine, oldest was 17 months. I have done tests but I don't rate them for evaluating a gundog.
I have also competed for Scotland at the big game fair against England ,Ireland, Scotland and Wales . I did not see any Welshies at all in any team . Scotland won that year I am pleased to say. The best scoring dog was given a special award but I'd rather have a dog that won a trial or two any day. How many trials did you say you have WON out of all those entries you've put in , all those runs in trials ? Statistically you have actually done very badly. Show Gundog Awards are better than nothing at all but if your dog is good enough , they aren't needed , the dog can get placed within the trial proper. If it really is a good dog it may even win the trial. Tests etc. are all good fun and they do have their uses in encouraging beginners but they have no real value in the evaluation of a gundog. That is why wise field triallers in years past insisted that Test wins should not be marked onto a dogs pedigree. The Plum |
||
| Mugi |
I know we all like a good argument/discussion/whatever we want to call it..........
but surely it is better to be encouraging new blood to take an interest in working their dogs or finding out what they are capable of etc etc, even if they are not getting to the highest levels?? At the moment I am at the very bottom of the pile in terms of working my dogs but I would like to think I can learn, even if I don't do justice to this dog surely it is better that I try as opposed to not? If people belittle my efforts and possibly minor achievements it is hardly likely I will want to keep putting my head above the parapet. So at the end of the day, I don't want false praise, special favours cos I am new but I would like to be given a fair opportunity to learn. When I had my weim all I met (before she was ill) was opposition to trying to learn to work with her (because she was a weim) and ultimately that put me off. I am new to showing too and some people are more encouraging than others but there is an element in both working and showing camps who seem to be 'closed shop' and to me as someone new to all this is just seems sad. If we are to keep dogs doing what they were bred for and with decent conformation to allow both show success and working ability shouldn't 'we' try to work together - or the other way round cos I am not saying show or working is more important ? Perhaps I am naive but in many ways this seems to epitomise why we have a Hunting Ban, Docking Ban etc etc we have too many agendas and not enough points of contact where we can work together to better our dogs.
|
||
| highclare |
This is for Jan and Sue. Sue your post was spot on and you do know a welsh springer and all of there naughty little things they get up to.
Jan I have a The Mabeleem now and want to learn from people who have trained and trialed Brits. Yes I could show a few tips to people but it is I who want to learn the HPR ways and the Plum has a big mouth so why can we not learn for him Scotland or not. We go to Scotland to show, people will go anywhere for there sport. Gill and The Mabeleen. |
||
| johnhod |
If people are going to start throwing personal insults around maybe now is the time to close this discussion. | ||
| highclare |
Don't be a spoil sport, its all good fun whats the matter with you!
|
||
| The Plum |
I agree Sue , beginners should be encouraged. That is why I have taken Gundog training classes for more than 30 years. That is why I have judged tests even although they are not for me and that is why as a "learner " H.P.R. judge I got a row from the senior "A" panel judge for trying to put semi -terrified novice handlers at their ease during a trial. The A panel judge felt I was being too helpful and that I should just let them get on with it.
I disagreed with him then and I still believe beginners should be made to feel welcome and at ease. With two separate training clubs now I have done my best to ensure no little "cliques" arise. Beginners are always welcome in any conversation. This is not a training day it is a discussion forum . While I may disagree with the writings of others , I think they should be allowed to write it. Other forum members will turn to another subject if they get bored. To back up my claim to trying to help beginners there are dozens, perhaps a couple of hundred gundog handlers. Some of those handlers and I had strong disagreements at first meeting. A few of those handlers are now very good friends of mine , some have won trials, one or two are now judges. I retired as a trainer of gundog classes earlier this year. After well over 30 years of trying to help others train gundogs, I rather feel I have done my bit and will watch with interest as others now help or don't help as suits their abilities and their natures. The Plum |
||
| Patricia |
I totally agree with you in wanting to ease people's fear when starting up. Some feel sick, some shake, it would be cocky to say otherwise! My first experience was being told off after running in a spring pointing test. As my dog pointed birds and I was told " Thank you" I made the mistake to go back to the gallery on " fresh ground" I was told off in no uncertain terms by a" big" judge. Needless to say, I felt really embarrassed( not knowing any different) and I am not sure I want to run under that judge. I have not forgotten.
But then, I have met some smashing judges who make you feel at ease and are kind like Fred Alcock. You make mistakes ..and sure learn fast from them! The pleasure from seeing a dog doing what you have asked him to do is unreal. Nothing beats that. It is that partneship which becomes special...
|
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Gill, Bill may or may not have a big mouth.....what he definately has got is the ability to train a HPR or other gundog breed to a very high standard to the extent, in fact, that it is capable of competing and winning in trials. | ||
| Annie as admin |
Nope - quite wrong. Belle was endorsed, and when I got her I asked the KC whether Joanne needed to have it lifted before breeding and they categorically told me that only the breeder can lift the endorsement and that pups will NOT be registered even if that bitch or dog is sold on. If anyone sees a litter registered from a dog they know is endorsed they shoulf inform them - they want to know as that emans their ssytem is faulty. In our case Belle was actually transferred twice and the ban was still in place - she was transferred back to Joanne and Joy and then to me. I enquired anonymously and was told exactly the same answer but two differnt girls at the KC Annie |
||
| yarak |
This is correct Anne
I also contacted the KC on this matter and was told if the Breeder puts restrictions on then they are on for life or until the breeder lifts them even if they change hands more than once, of course they can be bred and not registered but as some breeders IMO only breed a litter to make money I doubt many would resort to this. Not that any of us give our pups away, but you know what I mean
Also Bill I was not being in any way disrespectful i didn't realise you lived in Scotland, and I was genuinely suggesting That you come and help with training at the weekend. I know people have their opinions and get set in their ways and in their beliefs. my late farther trained and owned racing greyhounds all his life and his opinions, ways and beliefs were set in concrete. /quote]Knowledge is a wonderful thing and something we should never tire of 
|
||
| johnhod |
I have to agree with Jan. I've never met Bill but just reading his postings on this and other forums has taught me, as someone new to HPRs, more than I could have hoped for (and all for free) | ||
| highclare |
Jan, I never at any point said that Bill couldn't train a good HPR, I have been told by Pat that he is a brillant dog man and I am sure he is But some of the stuff he writes on this forum isn't helpfull. In saying that he is entitled to his say and I respect that
|
||
| The Plum |
O.K. Lets go back to the original arg ....... discussion -Endorsements. I'm agin them and will not buy a pup that has an endorsement attached. I have never put any endorsements on any pup I have sold. The nearest I ever came to doing that was when I "swapped" a very young lab that I'd already had a 2nd and a 3rd place with in novice trials for about 4 ft. x 8 ft of weldmesh to be fixed to a kennel !
My endorsement was that she could not be sold on or handed on to anyone else. She had to be returned to me if any problems arose. The man was a friend of mine and he ran her in one trial. She came in either 2nd or 3rd I can't remember. I did this swap because he was a friend and because that bitch was always going to be a bridesmaid never a bride. I only ever bred from the brides - but I didn't endorse the puppies. The Plum |
||
| Annie as admin |
You can put anything in a bill of sale, but there are only two Kennel Club approved endorsements - that is what we are talking about here not any personal arrangement you might have with any bartering of dogs. The endorsements as per Form 1/AB - the litter pack registration form for Accredited Breeders (of which I am one) - are "R = Progeny not eligible for registration and X = Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree" Annie |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Does this mean you've paid to go on the list then I was asked and turned it down, the KC got enough of my money without paying to go on a list that also seems to be used by 'Puppy Farmers' according to some reports.
It seems the KC don't know what their left hand nor their right hand is doing. I was with my friend when she read the supplement in which the pups were detailed and she was extremely angry about it to the extent she was going to take the KC to court over the matter. Perhaps they changed their ideas after that. She was one of the first people in the country to import these hounds and she was also a Championship show judge so I don't think she would have been talking through her hat. |
||
| Annie as admin |
You aren't asked to become an Accredited Breeder. You fill in a form, fulfil certain criteria, confirm that you will adhere to the obligations, and are then asked to sign a declaration that you will abide by the regulations. Presumably if you don't they take the status away. I've never heard of puppy farmw who adhere to the following
Accredited Breeders must: Ensure that all breeding stock is Kennel Club registered Hand over the dog's registration certificate at time of sale if available, or forward it to the new owner as soon as possible. Explain any endorsements that might pertain and obtain written and signed confirmation from the new owner, at or before the date on which the dog is physically transferred, that the new owner is aware of the endorsement(s), regardless of whether or not the endorsed registration certificate is available. Follow Kennel Club policy regarding maximum age and number/frequency of litters. Permanently identify breeding stock by DNA profile, microchip, or tattoo. Make use of health screening schemes, relevant to their breed, on all breeding stock. These schemes include DNA testing, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and inherited eye conditions. Socialise the puppies and provide written advice, in the Puppy Sales Wallet, on continuation of socialisation, exercise and future training. Provide written advice, in the scheme Puppy Sales Wallet, on feeding and worming programmes. Provide a written record, in the Puppy Sales Wallet, on the immunisation measures taken. Provide reasonable post-sales telephone advice. Inform buyers of the requirements and the recommendations that apply to Kennel Club Accredited Breeders as well as the existence of the complaints procedure. Draw up a contract of sale for each puppy and provide a copy in the Puppy Sales Wallet. In addition there are a number of recommendations: Accredited Breeders should: Make sure that whelping facilities accord with requirements for good practice Ensure that contract of sale clearly lays out to the buyer the nature and details of any guarantee given (e.g. time limit) and/or any provisions for refund or return and replacement of puppy. If endorsements are being used the contract should also explain why these have been placed and under what circumstances they would be removed (if any). The contract should be signed and dated by both breeder and purchaser, showing that both have agreed to these terms. Commit to help, if necessary, with the re-homing of a dog, for whatever reason, throughout the dog's lifetime. Follow relevant breed health screening recommendations. |
||
| Annie as admin |
Did she go ahead with this? |
||
| Dogsbody |
With reference to the accredited breeder scheme, I also received, with my KC newsletter, a form to fill in to become an accredited breeder. I felt the same a Ghilliegumdrop that it was a money grabber by the KC. Surely, all of the requirements that they ask for regarding, selling, health checks etc of puppies would be the normal thing that any responsible breeder would do. I also have seen letters and articles in the dog papers regarding puppy farmers being members of this scheme. Can you tell me if the KC check any of the members of its' scheme to see if they all follow the guidelines?
Regarding all gundogs getting trialing qualifications before being bred from. I believe, there are upwards of 30,000 dog puppies in the gundog group as a whole registered each year. Is the Plum saying that every one should be trialed before breeding from it. Sounds fine in theory but in practice could cause problems!
|
||
| The Plum |
Sorry, I have been a bit busy trying to train a spaniel . I should have replied earlier Yarak. If you are ever up this way please contact me , I will help if I can if you have a problem. So far I've managed to avoid getting too set in my ways. I've never been a great fan of using treats but beginning last year I began experimenting. I quickly discarded the clicker, I am just not convinced of its use for gundogs even though I have the gundog clicker training book in the house. A small signal has been substituted for the click but the results have been interesting to me. I began to train my G.S.P. a retrieve delivery where the dummy was actually pushed into my hand. This advanced using what I think is called "free shaping" into him standing on his hindlegs with his front legs/paws in "begging" position and actually putting the dummy into my mouth. I would love to see a judges face in a test if I had him do that !
I like to feel that at least where dogs are concerned I can think "out of the box." I do use many methods considered "old fashioned" but being an old fashioned method does not make it a wrong one. Every method whether old or new are just tools in the box , there to be used as and when required. Long, long before the invention of F.F. , E- collars, electronic launchers , springbird launchers, elasticated rabbits, dummy launchers , clickers and god knows what else , people were training dogs - good ones too. It's not just a case of keeping your mind open to new ideas , if you want some more tools, keep your mind open to older methods too. The Plum |
||
| The Plum |
[quote="Dogsbody"
Regarding all gundogs getting trialing qualifications before being bred from. I believe, there are upwards of 30,000 dog puppies in the gundog group as a whole registered each year. Is the Plum saying that every one should be trialed before breeding from it. Sounds fine in theory but in practice could cause problems![/quote]
You are so right , it would bring everything to a crashing halt !
BUT - THE 30,000 are including all of those dogs that cannot even begin to do the job - all those breeds the show fraternity have ruined as gundogs . Are you ready to lump the brittany in beside them ? I'm not . It is conformation gone crazy ! Which dog is the best at its job ? The one that can do it or the one that cannot ? The show bred absolutely beautiful Irish Setter is a total dumpling at its proper job. It should be better than those scrawny little nearly hairless work types but its not !!! The work type Irish will leave its big cousin for dead on a grouse moor. Don't take my word for it ,go and watch a trial. Show bred Irish Setters will be scarcer than hens teeth ! Much good their supposedly superior conformation is doing them ! Their breeders made the usual show breeders mistake - they read the original conformation guides and promptly proceeded to exaggerate them . Bigger , heavier and much more hair. They did the usual show thing they conveniently forgot or ommited to breed for the other important things - the work important things that live inside a dogs head or become feeble if not bred for. All of those breeds are now strangers to the working scene. The labs , the goldies , etc.etc. all made just next door to useless by putting the cart before the horse and looking for wins in a show ring but not at work. We are not talking about those 30,000 dogs , we are talking about a breed that can still be saved from being " a show dog." It has only been a few hours since I read of just how FEW brittanies are being bred. If that is the case a register of work qualified Brittanies should not be too difficult to get going - If the will is there ! ??? The Plum |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
That reminds me Gill, I met a couple of people at a show last year who said that you had a Irish Setter from them. Did you work that one before they had it back, or was it just for showing
Annie, the form I had for the scheme was in the KC newsletter which the KC send every now and again, if I get sent a form I take it as an invitation to join. As Dogsbody has asked you....does the KC check up that you are doing what you sign up to or just take the money and you get on with it How will they know if you are not fulfilling their criteria........like I said, money for old rope. It would make more sense if the Clubs ran schemes like this as they would have a better idea [at least in the minority breeds] what their members were doing. What, exactly, do you get out of being a member of this scheme As far as I am aware, and from what you have told us, you have buyers before you breed from your bitch so the KC don't help with that, do they give you a discount on any of the health checks, registering puppies or anything else.....I bet they don't So, tell me the benefits that you actually get from it, apart, of course, from having your name on their LIST Incidently, do you have to inform your local council that you are a member of this scheme and also register the fact that you have breeding bitches, as I believe that in England you have to register if you have a certain number of bitches of breeding age even if you don't breed from them all:?: .
|
||
| Annie as admin |
I would imagine they would know which are the puppy farms because of the questions asked, but I have no idea what policing they do since I am not a KC member, nor a member of their staff. However, I have today asked them that very question and will advise you of the answer. I take it you are not accusing me of being a puppy farmer? - I wouldn't be making much profit since I have only had 5 litters in 25 years. However, I DO adhere to the conditions of the scheme, and I do know that the majority of breeders - particularly single bitch ones would not bother. Just read the criteria properly Jan and Dopgsbody and I think you might agree that if you do this properly it is quite onerous and time consuming. Incidentally, I receive all sorts of advertising literature through the post, but I don't take them as personal invitation to join. I didn't get any personal invitation to join the scheme. I'm not entirely sure why I am being singled out either! Is this 'get at Annie month'? 
Annie |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
1] I didn't say 'advertising' I said 'newsletter'
2] Neither I nor Dogsbody [as far as I can make out] have accused you of being a puppy farmer The comment was, there have been both letters and articles in the dog papers saying that puppy farmers are also taking part in this scheme. It seems that the KC do not have the capability or the desire to police the people joining it. If this is so....what good is it Do you really think its a good idea to be on a list with puppy farmers, when, it appears, the KC does nothing to exclude them
3] You are the person that put on here that you are a member of the scheme.....I, and also Dogsbody, are just the ones asking questions
Are we not allowed to do that As far as I am aware this is still a forum where we can ask questions [sensible or otherwise] and sometimes get an answer that's understandable. If this is not so I would like to be informed so that I can remove my name from the list
|
||
| johnhod |
Maybe Annie, or any other KC accredited breeder, could explain just what has been done to check the information that they provided to the KC in order to achieve accredited breeder status. Have any of your kennels been inspected? Do you need to submit, or have inspected any documentation relating to health checks, etc?
I appreciate that most club members, involved in breeding, will be able to truthfully say that they meet the required criteria but if all you have to do is say "yes I do that" or tick a box on a form does that really have any value. Surprising as it may be not everyone is totally honest. |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
My point exactly John....this is what seems to escape Annie's attention. Just because you're honest Annie doesn't mean every one else is, not every one is truthful when filling in forms or in what they say to people
The members of the Brittany Club [that breed litters] are already doing all they can as regards breeding and rearing a healthy litter and then making sure, to the best of their ability, that the pups are going to good permanent homes....why do people feel a need to pay into yet another scheme that just puts money in the KC coffers, and for which there seems to be no benefit Seems absolutely potty to me to pay to do something that you are already doing [but thats just my opinion] I like my money in my pocket as long as possible never mind throwing it away and getting nothing back
|
||
| The Plum |
I know nothing about this K.C. accredited breeder scheme thing but I do know the K.C. - If they can see a way to take your money and do nothing in the way of work themselves - they will do that.
I can't really see any sense in the scheme , not for an occasional smalltime breder anyway. I have a friend who lives locally. She has huge kennels - spaniels, labs and pointers. I "help" by training a few of these showdogs as gundogs. The local council here have hit her with a sort of land tax claim (the land is entirely hers) It is based on the square footage of her kennel run space. She would be financially better off if she thought less of her dogs and put them into smaller runs !!! I think the council has a damn cheek. The council does nothing to help her. It doesn't improve the road to her house, it doesn't improve her drainage etc. - yet she has to pay them for doing nothing but putting her money into their pockets so they can go off on " fact finding" junkets etc. Does that sound a bit like another organisation we all know ? - No ,not the Mafia - not quite anyway !!!
The Plum. |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
The Goverment
Is there a prize for the correct answer
Aren't monopolies illegal, and yet, that's what the KC has Anyone trying to set up a 'rival' organization gets short shift and people are told that dogs not registered with them cannot take part in any KC events At least the cat showing world has two registering bodies to choose from and you can register your cat with either or both of them and choose to show with both as well .
|
||
| Annie as admin |
If anyone has any concerns about the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme please see below and contact Angela direct if you have any queries, please.
Annie. Dear Anne, thank you for your email. The Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme was established as a code of good practice for breeders to sign up to. The aim is to create a database of breeders who have signed up to a code of good practice covering identification, health testing and provision of information. To say that we recruit puppy farmers is wholly inaccurate. We do spot checks on our breeders and welcome feedback from puppy buyers or other breeders if they have concerns about a member of the Accredited Breeder Scheme. We take complaints about our members seriously. I suggest that if you have strong substantiated concerns about a member of the scheme then I urge you or one of your friends to put your concern into writing with a signature to it and address it to myself at The Kennel Club. Contrary to some of the misinformation out there about the scheme; we do in fact police litters registered under the scheme on a daily basis. Breeders are selected at random every week to receive a Breeder Advisor visit. Therefore policing is possible and it is done. My correspondence address is 1-5 Clarges Street Piccadilly London W1J 8AB Kind regards Angela Cliffe Accredited Breeder Scheme Officer The Kennel Club Tel: 0870 606 6750 ex 309 Fax: 020 7518 1028 angela.cliffe@thekennelclub.org.uk www.thekennelclub.org.uk |
||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Once more something that was said is taken out of context,
What I said was 'there have been both letters and articles in the dog papers about so called puppy farmers on the scheme' Don't know about you being an accountant Annie....you should have been a politician, they don't see what they don't want to, they don't read what they don't want to and neither do they answer a question directly if they don't want to. |
||