| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Mugi |
Eye TestingI know Gill has had Mabeleen eye tested but don't think anyone routinely tests as Brittanys are not on either Schedule for Eye Disease.On Saturday however I had a long chat with the vet at the CLA as I have Piper with eye problems and had Freddy who did. Upshot was that Chase had his eyes tested (not for Glaucoma as that needs to be done in good sterile conditions, not a blackout tent in a field   ). I didn't have his Reg Docs on me but as he is not technically needing to be registered on a BVA Eye Scheme I went ahead without and will be posting up his Reg Document to the vet who tested him so the data will be officially recorded although not as yet included in the KC records as they don't record results for dogs not on the Schedules.
Anyway, his eyes are Unaffected and I will almost certainly get him tested for Glaucoma at some point too - for my piece of mind as opposed to any thought he may have a problem. He was a very good boy having the vet up close and personal and the vet thought he was lovely - he had never tested one before and was mortified to be reminded they are NOT Brittany Spaniels  .
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| doganjo |
I know some people do this but there's no record of any incidence of eye problems in the Breed and the KC don't recommend testing. Doesn't do any harm I suppose. | ||
| Mugi |
A very valid point Annie - however (remember I come from a health background so do find this interesting too) 'we' are numerically a fairly small breed when it comes to registrations and it is hard to categorically state we don't have a problem unless a pool of dogs are tested from different lines to prove we don't have a problem.
I am certainly not thinking we should all go out and test our dogs for anything and everything BUT having some dogs proving that we don't have an issue is not a bad thing either. I can't speak for Gill but certainly for me having affected dogs from breeds with hereditary eye conditions and knowing the Brittany has behind it breeds that do have eye issues my peace of mind meant it was £30 well spent. As long as the dog can cope with sitting still and having a vet up close and personal peering in their eyes it is not difficult for them. As for the KC - they are only recording the results on the Health Results Site from dogs on Schedule A or B but they do say that any breed can be screened. From the BVA perspective however the panel vets welcome all breeds as the more info they collate the more they can understand about problems. I certainly was put under no pressure to have Chase tested and I was advised up front that he would have been VERY surprised if the results had been anything other than Unaffected. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Ghillie was done at a Cavalier Ch Show when she was around 18 months old. I think it was Dr Bedford that did her [along with my Cavalier] anyway she was clear as well. | ||
| doganjo |
Don't the eye tests have to be done every year to be of any use? | ||
| lagopuslagopus |
You're right Annie - just because a dog has an unaffected eye certificate doesn't mean that it can't change at a later date, which is why, when deemed necessary, the dog has to have a clear eye test done during the year before it is bred from. | ||
| Mugi |
The only eye test that is one off is the Glaucoma Test, however as we are not on the schedules having a 'snapshot' is still of use for information gathering. | ||
| doganjo |
For whom? |
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| Wyngold |
Brittanys have "eye conditions" not frequent but they do exist in the Breed. These are the most Common ailments reported for the breed not in order of frequency.
1) Late onset Progressive Retinal Atrophy (after age 5) 2) Cataracts (related to PRA) might be worthwhile to do screening for retinal folds in 8 week old litters as a prediction tool. 3) Luxating Lens (Primary not only due to Trauma) 4) Glaucoma Know of 1 case of early PRA in a France puppy exported to Portugal was a bit of a scandal on the Forum a few years back. I check all of my dogs prior to using in a breeding program and I do check every 2 years then once a year after age 8. So far lucky with no PRA have had luxated lens in a senior dog after age 10 They do exist and thankfully not with much frequency as of yet. But as with all things if you don't check or be mindful of these things it can creep in. Keeping ears open and observant when cases do crop up help you to control them. Bravo for doing the checks as info only helps the breed! |
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| gundoglover |
I have been reading about late-onset PRA described for Brittanys and it sounds similar to the one affecting English Springer Spaniels. Given that this form of PRA may be undetected throughout a dog or bitch's breeding life (onset is typically after 5 years, from what I have read), then annual eye-testing won't help breeders. We will need a DNA test.
I notice that there is a charitable group in UK doing Animal Health testing, including DNA. Perhaps the UK Brittany breeders could contact this group with a view to developing a DNA test for this disease. Apparently, testing in the English Springer Spaniels showed 80% were affected or carriers of this late-onset PRA: www.aht.org.uk/genetics_tests.html It would be sad to have Brittanys is a similar state if it could be prevented by cooperating to have a DNA test developed. I would be happy to send mouth swabs from my Brittanys to such a scheme. |
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| doganjo |
What must be remembered is that the UK is a relatively small area compared to Australia and America. We also have a relatively small number of Brittanys, unlike USA. In the past any health problems have been picked up extremely quickly and eradicated. The Brittany Club does have a Health Co-ordinator - who is also our Vice Chairman - Kathy Gorman. Might I suggest that ALL UK enquiries, recommendations, or suggestions should be sent to her as well as being discussed on here. kathy.gorman@fossedata.co.uk or walgoreg@aol.com possibly also soon health@brittanyclub.co.uk once my son (Donald) has set up our new email addresses. Any information from other countries will no doubt be of interest but possibly not relevant in our own gene pool.
Personally I have never heard of any eye problems in the UK other than degenerative cataracts, and they have been very few - I think our last Chairman reported one some years ago. However, that said, it doesn't do to be complacent, but by the same token we need not go on an extensive health kick. We sent out health enquiry forms on three separate occasions as I remember, with very few owners reporting any problems. Since this covers other health issues as well as eyes perhaps Guy might copy some of this thread into the health section under a general heading? |
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| Patricia |
I don't think the Brittany has anything to do with English Springers...And whilst I think being careful and monitoring the breed is a very good idea, I also don't see any reason to panic in comparison to others breeds( which I frankly wouldn't touch as it would freak me out  )
I see the Brittany as relatively healthy and tough-on the whole- I have however had a bitch go blind at 7 years and her ancestors are widely spread in the UK's population. She was tested by her owners in Newmarket but I am not aware it was anything hereditary... I am also aware that all -or 99% of our UK stock- is from french descendants and there are sometimes things that have been mentioned to me in passing or I picked up on the Forum.ie, undershot teeth or slipping patellas, and the odd fit. So I guess many US French Brittanys dogs are also descended from similar stock and it is good to have some idea of what such or such dog may carry in its line... No use sweeping things under the carpet but to over react is not constructive either
If we know of problems it is good to share it, and breeders may be able not to double up on certain dogs. |
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| doganjo |
Agreed, Patricia. Perhaps any health test results might be entered into the database which is now widely available through the Club website? That would help potential breeders, but again I must stress, the UK has a totally different owner and breeder regime and different traditions from many other countries. Anything that may work in the States for instance might not be usefully applied here. As an example there are only a handful of fairly regular breeders in the UK, (I reckon 4 or 5 at most)many Brittanys in the UK are bred by people with only one or two dogs. I have traced four larger breeders(having produced over 70 dogs) and two of those have now stopped breeding, although they may still have dogs at stud. The rest of them have bred much less than that number. we only have about 3500 registered Brittanys in the UK, and perhaps a similar number of unregistered ones whose breeders may not be interested in health problems in any case - we can do little about that to be honest. | ||
| gundoglover |
Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting that we should panic about this, that was not my intention. I was also not suggesting that there was a direct genetic link between English Springer Spaniels and Brittanys.
The point that I was trying to make (rather poorly, as it turns out), is that a late-onset PRA condition can easily infiltrate the gene pool because affected dogs would be bred prior to their condition being known. The example of the ESS was just to show how widespread such a late onset genetic condition can become in a breed before breeders realize that it is a problem. In most breeds, PRA is a recessive condition, which means that even though there may be only a small number of affected individuals, there may be many carriers. According to the Hardy-Weinberg formula, if only 1/100 individuals are affected, 20% of the breed will be carriers. My point is that without a DNA test, a late-onset recessive condition can be very difficult to eradicate or even control. I'm certainly not suggesting that we panic, but complacency would also be ill-advised. |
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| doganjo |
Actually even late onset diseases can be detected in the early stages. That is why annual testing is recommended, which can turn out to be an expensive option for a small breeder. If we had a problem I would certainly recommend event the smallest breeder (such as myself) having annual tests done, but as Patricia rightly says, these are not ESS and we don't have the problems with eyes, or in fact anything else, that other breeds and other countries may have. So don't worry, you won't start a panic here in the UK. We have pretty sound stock overall as far as I can gather from the surveys we have done from time to time.. |
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| gundoglover |
The advantage of a DNA screen will be only one test for life (and no tests required for offspring of clear parents), so it would be cost-effective for breeders once the research is done and the original breeding stock DNA-tested.
I have enquired with Animal Health Trust. (Registered address: Lanwades Park, Kentford, Newmarket, Suffolk, CB8 7UU, Registered Charity no: 209642) about what would be required to develop a DNA screen for Brittanys. This is the reply that I received to my email: "Ok, have spoken with our research dept - in order to proceed with looking at this eye problem:- a) we would need DNA samples from 24 dogs that have been eye tested by an ophthalmologist and confirmed affected, we need a copy of the eye test certificate and pedigree and any other relevant health test certificates b) we would need DNA samples from 24 dogs that have eye tested by an ophthalmologist and confirmed clear but they must be aged 8 years or older (in fact the older the better) together with a copy of the eye test certificate taken after their eight birthday or older, the pedigree and any other relevant health certificates. To progress this would be around GB£10,000, however a donation towards this would be helpful as we may be able to apply for funding elsewhere as long as we have the relevant DNA samples to process. regards Symone Ingram" So, if we can find 24 affected Brittanys, & 24 clear aged 8 or more, it looks like Animal Health Trust will apply for funding to do the research. I know that I sound like a worrywort, but if Brittanys reach the stage of 10% of the breed affected, then according to the Hardy-Weinberg formula, the affected + carriers in the population will exceed 50%. This is what makes recessives hard to breed out. |
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| doganjo |
I doubt very much if there are even 5 Brittanys in the UK with an eye problem of any kind. Perhaps you might find enough worldwide if you want to try. But whether the AHT would fund an international "problem" (personally I don't think there is one) I would be doubtful. Perhaps you could ask them. How many Brittanys are ther in Australia, Gundoglover? |
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| gundoglover |
Yes, we can provide samples from different countries as long as there are equal numbers of affected and clear dogs in the samples from each country. I don't know how many Brittanys are in Australia (but there would be fewer than in the UK), nor do I know of any PRA-affected dogs, but I have emailed Aust breeders that I know eye-test their dogs to see if there is any interest. It doesn't seem impossible when the numbers required are modest. | ||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
If we have just over 3000 dogs registered in the UK 10% is 300 and we only have 380 approx hip scored [and that's over the last 25 years] I cannot see you getting 10% of people willing to eyetest here. This is also presuming that that;
a] the dog is old enough and b] the owners could be contacted and asked to participate given that we have not got that many members in the Brittany Club.......not sure of the exact figures but around 250/300  Most of them don't hip score so I cannot see them forking out for eyetests that they could say are not needed.
After all most of them won't pay for the test for the 'sable' gene either 
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| Patricia |
Hummmm.....I think you will be pushed to find any way near the required number in ther UK. Clear yes, affected, I would be suprised. It may pay to ask the question on a bigger Forum like the English speaking section on the French one. It has many countries and thousand of members belonging to it. As well as breeders and Professionals which makes it very interesting.( to me in any case reading the French subjects)
I feel we have enough to worry about without looking for more trouble???? In over 22 years, I have come across slipping patellas, bad hips, the odd fitter, one Addison more recently. In addition, it looks as if you have crosses of American X French Brittanys. and though I am NOT going to get into this one again, it is a different population to the UK. We can track back all the UK stock and even better now on the " livre d'elevage" on the CEB site. Even the Irish stock comes from De Sous Les Viviers, Kerryvan, etc...so traceable. Further, as Anne states , there are few regular breeders here, why I don't know, maybe because the mentality in not so HPR minded  Labs and Springers for working dogs???
Many I doubt even hip score in the non members population, never mind, eye test??? Should someone report a problem to our health coordinator, I am quite sure the commitee would look into it and take relevant action, but it would be for breeding stock as you can't force people to test... |
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| kandjt |
I have my working dogs eye tested every couple of years as a matter of course to keep a check on them and my labs are now optigen tested. In the shooting season my working dogs are out three or four times a week and through experience I know that trauma can cause cataracts so I test every two years.
Incidentally, whilst I was at the eye clinic a few months ago with BB there were 3 Gordon Setter owners having about a dozen older dogs tested because there had been a few cases of late onset PRA recently found in the breed and the breed club were looking for cases to put to the trust gundoglover was writing about. Keith |
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