| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Jayne Cutler |
Hi
Having just returned from a wonderful week at National Gundog and Bournemouth, thanks to both judges for making Briafael (Paddy) a SH.CH subject to KC confirmation. Just a few points to stimulate conversation. Paddy has a relatively high hipscore but I wonder how many Brittany's there are with the same condition with no apparent affects even into old age. If you compare his movement in the ring to other dogs of maybe lower hipscore then you will see why he achieved his awards. If we accept that every dog will have its faults then what can possibly be wrong with showing a dog of this wonderful temperament and sound confirmation, considering the events at National Gundog where a judge withheld. Many thanks to Bill for showing Pads in the Group he looked great! By the way, dog showing should be fun, win or lose! Jayne |
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| doganjo |
I agree dog showing is a fun sport in the UK, but it isn't seen that way in every country. I can't see a problem with showing a dog with a high hip score providing it isn't bred from. I showed Bonnie for a number of years with a great deal of success, numerous Best of breeds up and down the country - she was retired at 11 years of age, just prior to CC's in 1997. Her hip score was 30/28 and despite being told by a senior member of the then committee of the Club we should mate her to our low scoring dog at the time (Brett - was a 4/4/) we refused to do so. It would have been a good mating (Dorvalstan lines) but we didn't want to produce pups with possible problems. Bonnie lived to 17 years and three months.
Congratulations Jayne - you're in my breed notes for both next week and the week after. |
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| highclare |
Staying on the hips theme. I started in Welsh 30 years ago NOT hip scoring, (In those days it wasn't usual to hip score). Of course I bred from my first Welsh 3 times! I did hip score her at the age of 7 and she had a score of 30-10. Well all I can say is that it has plauged my breeding ever since. I have used a succession of low scored dogs to help but still it has come back to bite me. So be carfull when you breed in my experience bad hips are very difficult to get rid of.
As far as showing, it is possibe to have high hips and still for the dog to move really well and you can have low hips and the dog moves badly. Hips are not the only joint in the hind quarters and a dog will move what is comfortable for its self. As the Brittany dosn't have length in its back (or shouldn't have) I see most of them moving there back legs to one side to get around the ring. Of course that is why they have this short clipped gait to avoid that. Gill and the Mabeleen (who has good hips) |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Even with a very high hip score providing the results are even then a dog should move straight. It's when the score is very uneven that you usually see the problem then the dog may move erratically. Although, of course, there are other things that can cause a dog to move unevenly on the day.
I would query that a dog with a very high hip score could be said to be of sound confirmation as by definition a high hip score means the dog has a problem [in the structural sense] if not in movement and as such I would think very hard and long before including such a dog in any breeding programme, if at all. I would also look long and hard at the pedigree behind the parents of such a dog before breeding from them again in the same combination. But there again these are just my thoughts and others may think different. |
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| doganjo |
Well I agree with you, Jan!
Bonnie's father was put down at 9 because of his bad hips. He sired three litters before he had any pain but hadn't been hip scored - in those early days it wasn't done so regularly, so no scores are available for any of Bonnie's siblings or half siblings either.
Apparently what I have said above can be misconstrued to read that I advise hip scoring dogs at one year and breeding bitches at two years? The question was asked - Why should there be any difference That isn't what I meant. I meant that all dogs can (and in my view should) be hip scored from 1 year old onwards and bitches are usually not bred until at least after two years, but dogs are sometimes bred earlier. I told the person querying this that I'd edit it if that is what people think I meant, so I have done.  My apologies to those who can't read my mind 
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| highclare |
Jan,
I have had more than 25 of my own dogs hip scored and there are more than 70 Highclare's in the hip scoring sceme. I can tell you that it is clinically possible to have a very good straight mover on a high hip score. My top winning Welsh Ch Highclare Energizer won 28 CC including a BIS at an all breed Champ show and she use to storms around the ring and she has a hip score of 32 not even. Of course when you get cricket scores of above 60 and don't keep the dog fit then you would see the difference in the movement. I know many dogs that have hip scores in single figures and move very very badly. Hips are a big concern in Welsh so we have got to know alot about the problem. Because the problem is big then we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and we have to take big decisions about breeding from quite high hips!!!!!! Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| johnhod |
Just reading Nigel Dear's book HPR dogs for work and showing. In this he argues that a dog should not be bred from unless it's hip score is "significantly below the BMS". He suggests for the Vizsla which has a BMS of 12 parents with scores of 10 or less should be used. What are the suggested upper scores, among breeders, for the Brittany? | ||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
I think you will find that this is what I have said above Gill. |
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| doganjo |
At present the average total is 17 in our breed. No-one has set a recommended level. Personally I only breed with dogs below that average - the highest I have is Belle with 14, but I don't know whether the Committee would be prepared to go as far as stating a maximum. To be honest the puppy register only says parents should be hip scored. It doesn't say they should be below the average. | ||||||
| johnhod |
Seems a bit pointless then, don't you think? Why bother hip scoring if you're not then going to use the information to improve the breed by, for example, breeding for lower hip scores? These may be silly questions but please forgive me. I'm not a breeder neither do I have the obvious levels of experience in these matters that others on this forum have, but I am willing to learn. |
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| doganjo |
I said that at the time we set up the rules for the puppy register, but others thought we couldn't enforce it. I still think we should only allow breeders to put pups on the Club puppy register if their dogs and bitch have a hip score below 17 - but I have no doubt I'll be over ruled as usual. | ||||||
| johnhod |
Maybe we couldn't enforce it but we could encourage it as intelligent breeding, couldn't we? | ||||||
| doganjo |
Preaching to the converted here , John. Speak up in Committee. | ||||||
| Dave A |
This may also sound like a dum question, but i am interested to know who set's the breed average and has it improved over say the last 10yrs with all the hip's of breeding stock being scored and awareness of how important this is to the breed.
Dave A |
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| doganjo |
Not dumb at all. 
The KC/BVA hip scores are sent to the KC for publication; they then calculate the overall average from the scores submitted, and these are published annually. Some x-rays never get as far as the BVA for assessment if a vet thinks they are too bad and wants to save his client some money. (currently about £35) Or sometimes if they are doing x-rays for something else they will pick up that the hips aren't good. The average has stayed at 17 for about 3 years, was previously 18 for a few years, and 20 before that, 23 before that. So they are coming down. The more dogs that are x-rayed prior to breeding the better, and even better if only dogs below 17 are bred from. JMVHO |
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| guy |
The French system has something to offer I think. To be awarded a ticket the dog has to have its hip dysplasia certificate presented to the judge. In France below B and it fails to take the award. B equates to between 13 and 18 maximum.
From memory - and I would need to research it again the Danes have had strict rules in place to remove hip dysplasia for 40 years? and have failed to make significant progress. Someone may be more on top of this subject and will post. |
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| Jayne Cutler |
Our system in the UK is the most successful way of checking the hips. The maximum score possible for all registered breeds with this scheme is 53/53, total 106!
Our breed is doing extremely well as a quick check of the Kennel Club's breed record supplement will attest. Jayne |
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| Dave A |
Thank you for your replies Annie/Guy, some times difficulties arise when a fashionable stud dog ( with a problem ) has been used on a large number of bitches and the fault starts to appear on both sides of the pedigree.
I have seen this in other breeds and it can be quite difficult to find a good specimen that is free of this ( now untrendy ) breeding. Dave A |
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| doganjo |
Well, in theory so have the Scandinavians but perhaps there are ways round the rules? But in any case nothing times nothing is still nothing. If you start off lines with very high scores and don't check for a number of generations, you will always have throwbacks, even if you then start to check them. I think that is what the Danes have but they see it as failure of the system. I see it as success because they have a lot more low scoring dogs than before. | ||||||
| Dave A |
Hi Jayne
Well done with Paddy i didnt realise this win would make him SH CH, As a aside i have been out with his sister today on the moor and she did very well considering the conditions and was still working well after almost 3hrs non stop hunting, can't say the same for the handler who failed to put his gun up to the pair of grouse she found ( to busy making sure the training was right ) Me 0 Grouse 2 Dave A |
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| Jayne Cutler |
Hi
Nice to know you are having lots of fun! Hope Molly is well and how about you giving Rich some training tips (he points well at young ladies!) Simply a case of mind over matter! I have told him he has to work on both Boys now and get rid of the SH.CH. title which is his next challenge as I have done the hard bit with making them up to SH.CH's. Jayne |
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| Dave A |
Dave A |
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| lagopuslagopus |
The problem when people don't submit the bad looking x-rays for scoring is the same as with the Munsters, it keeps the average score unrealistically low. | ||||||
| Patricia |
Having imported 2 dogs with hip scores of 66 and 68 in years gone...and got rid of them. Of course...
I also believe -and many will disagree- that you cannot throw the baby with the bath water. Is it not in Norway that despite their stringent rules they still have not got rid of dysplasia? And talk about a machine to eradicate the human error in measuring? Guy.The French have to present their hip certificate at the SCC show and the Nationale, no other. How about rearing and exercising when young? too much hard working is not good for a young skeleton.  Diet? Much more important that you will ever imagine. I now have much wider knowledge on this 
How about the many many other aspects of the breed? I would still rather a dog who has slighter higher score than 17 and has a powerful nose and works, and not in a mediocre manner, but well. How about throw backs? from many years back in France, in the days when I had heard: high hip score won't stop them running 
Of course in an ideal world...Yes. I won't compare with France, but how about no title if no work award??? and poor hips too? |
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| gundoglover |
Dr Willis' work showed that the progeny data for a sire is far more reliable than the sire's own hip score for predicting hip dysplasia in his offspring. This is because the effects of environment tend to cancel out as the number of scored offspring from different dams increases. Thus giving a truer picture of the sire's genetic potential for hip dysplasia.
The average of over 10 scored offspring gives a more reliable indicator of his genetic potential than the sire's own hip score, & the average of over 20 scored offspring is quite reliable. This would work for dams too, except that few dams produce this many offspring to a variety of sires. So, if there is an excellent sire with a high hip score but with many low hip score relatives, it may be worthwhile using him & testing the progeny to see whether his other valuable genes can be retained without jeopardizing hips in his offspring (the scores of only 10 offspring will give an early indication, and 20 will confirm). Does the club receive the hip score progeny information for Brittany sires? |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
I put hip scores on the database as and when the KC print them in the BRS.
I doubt very much if there has ever been as many as 10 progeny tested from any one sire never mind from the dams. We have only had approx 390 dogs scored in total since the breed arrived in the UK so a BMS of 17 doesn't give an accurate picture in any case. If more dogs were done as routine the average score could be lower than 17 or a great deal higher. Until a lot more people have their dogs scored [preferably before mating] then we shall never know what the correct average is in the UK. As I have said before, the fact that a dog with a high score moves correctly because the score is even does not mean that you should breed from it, especially when you may have a dog with a low score that doesn't move correctly because the total is uneven. Would people use a dog that is known to fit just because you have never seen the fits  Bad hips are just as debilitating and could cause much more pain and a shorter life than the odd fit controlled by medication. Any one that thinks different is either daft or just looking for the money from pups or stud fees or, even worse, they don't give a damn what the dog is going through as regards pain from the hips. Just remember that animals don't feel pain as we do and they keep going regardless.
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| doganjo |
Excellent post, Jan! | ||||||
| Waldo |
I've only really breezed thru this post (as it's grown at an amazing rate), but coming from my position as a relatively recent purchaser of their first Brittany, whatever can be done to minimise or eliminate dodgy hips should be done.
My girl has bad hips and I was shattered when the problem first arose. After a long research period to select a breed, surviving and enduring the puppy period and hours of training to all of a sudden be confronted by the reality that my hunting partner and friend was likely to have her career cut short well before she will have the opprtunity to reach her full potential was devastating. Just my thoughts. Waldo |
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| Patricia |
Waldo, we really sympathise with you...What you have come across with Annie is terrible.
What were her parents s' hip scores and others? What did the breeder have to say about it all? Is she pure Epagneul Breton or has other blood? Funnily enough I have experienced dogs with really high, and not particularly even scores. Those were sound though even the imports at 66 and 68. Plus another shown into old age
It is a really tricky subject... No one wants a cripple 
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| Waldo |
Hi Patricia, yep, sometimes I think stuff just happens. She is a pedigree with quite good breeding from what i can see (just going by kennel names, but I'm a novice). She has a french father and english mother so I kind of thought that should be a good thing by distancing the parents?
I did contact the breeder, but she has had a few 'issues" and I was brushed off a bit. You guy's must score differently over there as my vet has graded the left hip 3/4 (the worse one) and the right one 2/4. i got the impression that hips in the breed over here aren't monitored that much as the breed is not considered at "risk". I'm heading ta a EB club function on the weekend (my first doggy type function) so looking forward to seeing some more of the breed and speaking to a few breeders hopefully with an eye on the future. Cheers, Waldo |
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| guy |
get in touch with Bill Allen ozbrittATozemail.com.au (change the AT for an @) | ||||||
| doganjo |
In between clearing my study for painting I took some info off the database - here is a chart showing information for sires with 3 or more progeny recorded with scores. It shows only whether the Sire and progeny are over or under the present breed average of 17 in order to protect anonymity. I've emboldened those with recorded scores from more than 10 progeny. Don't know if it proves anything though, but it was fun playing with Excel
Click to download file |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
I just wonder how people with bad hips would feel if they were made to run round a large ring whether they like it or not  In all weathers at that.
outlook.wustl.edu/fall2004/hips.html As has been said by better people than me....as a breed club we need to get our priorities right and start thinking about HEALTH in the breed before we worry about a minor thing like colour. www.offa.org/hiptreat.html And if you look at these sites and still think dogs feel no pain with equal scores then there is no hope for you. Me, I've finished with the subject. |
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| Jayne Cutler |
With regard the importance of colour in this breed; It stands to reason that any fault potentially injurious to a dog e.g. slipping patella, hips, fitting should be minimised where ever possible because no one wants to see an animal in pain.
However, correct colour and pigmentation is still and probably will always be part of the breed standard and as such should be adhered to as much as moderate bend of stifle, good spring of rib etc.. French guidelines apply whether we agree or not. Jayne |
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| doganjo |
Yes, but they ARE only guidelines - the French are NOT our superiors. Health comes before ANY colour issue in EVERY case! |
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| guy |
When one builds an airplane Safety is a given. Wing size, engine, body shape all make it whichever plane it is. Likewise for a dog Healthy is the given. The standard is what makes it the sort of dog it is.
Or is this to simplistic? If we don't take our lead from the French then we are not breeding Epagneul Breton but Brittany. We may not like it but I fail to see any other way of looking at it. They may not be our superiors but they do hold the keys to the kingdom so to speak. |
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| doganjo |
But their record shows they are not infallible. We should not be sheep. | ||||||
| gundoglover |
Waldo,
If you send your dog's hip x-rays off to be officially read and scored by the AVA or a qualified board-approved radiographer in Australia, then you get hip score results in the same format as those in the UK (ie a score out of 53 for each hip, total 106). Some breeders are now using PennHip, but this gives a percentage, so I don't know what system your vet is using. I don't know how to interpret the grades that your vet has quoted to you. The US OFA system uses grades, but that system is not used in Australia, except for dogs imported from US that were hip-graded prior to export. As for Australian breeders not being interested in hip scoring, that has not been my experience. I knew the hip scores of the parents & grandparents of both my Brittanys prior to purchase. All the Brittany breeders that I know state that they hip score all their stock prior to breeding. And many Australian Brittany breeders advertise their dogs' hip scores on places like www.dogzonline.com.au . By the way, what is the EB event that you are off to? |
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| guy |
As they say what is an EB we don't have to be sheep but we can be disciples. We have no say in the matter. If they change their mind then what is an EB changes. i will agree with you that one could have had a brittany in the past that was not in standard but now is. you might have one now (sable springs to mind) that now isn't but might be in the future; but that future will only be after the current president and more than half the committee to change their mind or be superseded by new people with a different view to the present. Nothing much is going to happen in my life time. They clarified their thinking by committee consensus - the KC changes its mind after a TV programme. |
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| Patricia |
I go along with Jayne on this...And we all can agree to disagree. How we see the French directives, how we perceive the Standard, and most important of all what is the order of priority to each one of us.
Absolutely the dog should be sound of mind and body. But the Breton is a gundog and as such should be capable to work and not become simply a beauty object like many breeds in this country. And have the blue print of the Standard in conformation. Colour along with all other factors like butterfly nose, white in ear etc etc.... If we don't recognise the superiority of the French we are in danger of doing just what the Americans did and have a different " type".
If that is fine with what you, as breeders, want to do, that is OK, as long as I am not part of it
By the way Waldo, are you off to the Brittany gathering with Bill Allen? He seems a really nice bloke ... I have had a few emails from him and discussed pedigrees. What are Annie's lines? Pity the breeder could not give you back up
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| Waldo |
Hi All,
Guy, yes I believe Bill Allen will probably be at the function this weekend, so it will be interesting to catch up. I have previously corresponded on one or two occasions via. email but not specifically about Annie. GDL, I probably should clarify a bit about the "not interested in hips", that was the indication I got from the vet who first x-rayed and diagnosed the problem. She said something along the lines that the breed is not known for hip problems and not treated the same way as say the larger breeds where they are checked more strigently. Patricia, The EB club event is the 30th Birthday of the club, they are holding a partridge shoot, game dinner, clay target shoot and some training opportunities I believe. I don'y know the full details as I haven't been an active member of the club but saw the opportunity for a good weekend and to learn a few things from people who know a lot more than myself, it's all a bit daunting but should be good. As far as the lines are concerned the sire is 'Ailetireu Bon Nuit" with a UK import 2 generation back CH Joymonds Hugo (S09), The Dam is "Tobenlee It's All About Me" with US imports the next generation back CH Rocklan Jordean Night Hawk and CH Blackbuttes Heart of Gold. Cheers, Waldo |
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| Waldo |
Sorry, I should also acknowledge (well the vet told me) that there are factors outside of breeding that could impact on hip performance. So breeding may or may not have had an impact on Annies health?
Cheers, Waldo |
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| gundoglover |
Waldo,
The breeder of the dam of your girl, Fiona Brown-Elkner of Tobenlee Kennels is very knowlegeable about the breed in Australia and has worked Brittanys in the field as well as show. I would suggest that you contact her to find out more about Annie's breeding. As for other factors impacting on hips, I agree with your vet. I wonder if you have worked Annie a little too much given her youth? Brittanys are willing and will run all day (at least mine seem to) but I am mindful that when they are young and still growing, like all children, they need to play rather than work. However, this is not an area of my expertise and I may be overly cautious. There will be others on this forum far more knowledgeable about how much work to give a young Brittany without putting undue stress on growing bones and ligaments. |
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| johnhod |
I think that is too simplistic a view, but stand to be corrected. The breed standard, regardless of whether we are talking about the French or British standard, is just that. Are you suggesting, for example that an EB that is a cm over or under the standard isn't an EB? That one whose ear tip slightly passes or fails to reach the stop isn't an EB. The standard is the ideal that should be bred for but an EB that doesn't attain perfection is never the less an EB. Do the French (whose standard must be obeyed) sell on puppies that fail to match their standard as something other than EBs? I think not. |
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| Patricia |
It is difficult to breed the perfect dog but it is every good breeder's goal. To achieve a healthy beautiful working dog. And the fun-and challenge- is to keep bettering it all the time. All Bretons registered as such as Bretons.
There are the good ones, the average ones and the "one in a million" ones 
We are privileged to have a really fantastic one in our life time. The one which will be so special in many ways. Now, on the hip side- and because I always check with my" elders and betters" when I want to know more: Speaking to Jean Louvet at lenght. I was told the feeding and exercise has much to do with soundness at an early age too. More that we give it credit for. Would you take a toddler for a 2 miles walk? I am shocked every time when I read how early hunters take their pups shooting. And for such lenght of time. Not my idea...
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| Waldo |
Annie never came hunting untill she was 12 months old, whether this is too young I'm not sure, perhaps someone could enlighten me as to what age is suitable to take a pup into the field. If this was too young I would appreciate knowing so if I have been too enthusiastic I know not to make the same mistake next time round.
Cheers, Waldo |
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| gundoglover |
John, I agree with you completely. I am only new to Brittanys and am also willing to be corrected. My reading of the FCI standard (adopted by Australia, which follows the standard of the country of origin) shows that "Brittany" is simply the English translation for "Epagneul Breton", and does not designate some different breed, so to say that by not following the French fashions one is breeding Brittany rather than Epagneul Breton is simply semantics. Furthermore apart from colour-bias by the Americans, there is not sufficient difference in the US, UK & FCI standards to justify the suggestion that these are separate breeds. Indeed, apart from differences in fashion for show trimming (see an earlier thread on how to turn an "EB" into an "AB" using towels, clippers & scissors), it would be difficult for most people to pick a good average orange or liver "AB" from a good average orange or liver "EB". Just take a look at some of the untrimmed dual champions on the American Brittany website! Referring to these dogs as different breeds and the offspring that combines US & European lines as "crosses" would appear not particularly helpful for the breed as a whole. In Australia we breed to the FCI standard (ie, the same as the French), and combine the best that we can source from US & Europe in doing so, which, to some on this forum, seems to mean we are producing "cross-breeds" while following the same breed standard as the French (the FCI) - an absurd state of affairs! |
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| Patricia |
Oh Gosh that subject again! There has been a lot of ink poured on this subject on the American Brittany versas Epagneul Breton. ( Yahoo group)
I will let Anne and Goldie, and Cecilie! explain further their thoughts. However 2 American " Brittanys" went to the Nationale in France without gettting graded. Watch the video at Westminster and see if they even move the same
I have been to the US and seen a couple of decent specimens but I believe Goldie mentions better lines in one part of the States which resemble more the French dogs. By the way, Waldo, 1 year old is not too young, maybe not a whole hard day...` |
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| doganjo |
Just don't get me started on AB v EB!!!!
I had an AB shown under me when I judged Crufts in 2007. I thanked the owner for bringing her dog so far to show in the UK and she said she had been invited - now who would do that I wonder. Were they testing me, or maybe the system? Either way - it was a good AB - a Canadian Champion I believe, but it was at the bottom of the line in Open dog because it was most definitely NOT an EB, and did NOT fit either the UK nor the FCI standard - in my opinion! I understand Goldie breeds both AB and EB and apparently keeps them separate - so if they are not different breeds, why would she need to do that! I recently judged in Norway where there were some (as you put it) 'crosses' there, but they took after the AB side rather than the EB side, it was noticeable and they were placed below better dogs as a result of that! They are two different breeds, there is no doubt in my mind. They not only look different, trimmed or not, but they move differently too -as a general rule they are longer backed, more angulated, longer necked, taller. JMVHO Sorry for hijacking the hips thread, please feel free to move this post Guy if you feel the need to. Annie |
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| gundoglover |
Sorry, Waldo, I misunderstood some of your earlier posts. Starting at 12 months is not too soon, although, as Patricia has said, not a full day at that age. Bones & ligaments are still growing until 18 months old or so. It sounds like you've had some really bad luck with Annie. I hope that some of the knowledgeable people at the event tomorrow will have some good ideas for you. |
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| Waldo |
That's OK GDL, I don't think the breeder or I for that matter have done anything wrong, it's just that sometimes stuff (polite translation) happens.
It has been dissapointing but she is my first gundog (and first new dog for about 14 years) and I have learnt a lot during the past 2 years. I may not have done a real good job of training (comparitively speaking) so far but I'm doing what I can. I would certainly expect to do a better job next time (as I expect to get Annie to a higher level also) whenever that may be. I am looking forward to seeing a good collection of working EB's and absorbing as much info as I can on the weekend. Anyway it's just gone 9PM here and I have to leave home by about 5AM in the morning, so better go to bed. For all those heading out for a hunt or other activities with their dog's over the weekend, enjoy. Cheers, Waldo |
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| gundoglover |
Doganjo,
Thankyou for your response. My confusion is due to there being no countries that consider "EB" and "AB" as different breeds. I understand that there are fashions and preferences for styles within breeds that vary from country to country and even from decade to decade. For example, the American style Golden Retriever also tends to be be longer in body and finer in head than the English style Golden Retriever, yet there is no suggestion that they are different breeds. And several other American style Gundog breeds seem to show this preference for length, refinement & angulation compared to the UK breed winners. I certainly accept that there are differences in style, and that judges will have preferences depending on their interpretations of the standard, but without a separation of the "EB"/"AB" breeds by, eg, FCI, it seems unreasonable to refer to these style preferences as different breeds. PS. I am also happy to have this posting moved somewhere more appropriate |
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| doganjo |
For comparison purposes:
An American Brittany Champion 
Click to see full size image A UK Champion 
Click to see full size image |
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| gundoglover |
Doganjo,
My point is not that there are no differences in style and fashion between American and UK Champions but whether these differences are sufficient to claim they are separate breeds. If you look at the Gundog/Sporting BOB winners of Crufts/Westminster (the US equivalent of Crufts and a qualifier event for Crufts), you see similar differences in US and UK winners for many if not most of these breeds. |
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| Wyngold |
Actually Waldo what your vet is telling you is not an official score that the Australian Veterinary Council would score them if submitted officially. The ACVO scoring is done the same way as in the UK's system. What your veterinarian is tellyin you is that your dog has in "old standardized" terms "Grade 3 & 4 dysplasia" which is pretty severe. If you would like to read about the "older" dysplasia classifications you can visit the www.offa.org site of the orthopedic foundation for animals. They have some good articles and diagrams of various degrees of dysplasia posted. There are also some working dog sites (ie. Ger. Shepherd) that have actual radiographs posted with the terminology refering to grades of dysplasia. the FCI system oftens refers to a grade 3,4,5 dysplasia which refers to the FCI score of D & E. OFA also has a comparison chart posted on the BVA scores and their relations to FCI & OFA classifications. Basically a ACVO/BVA hips score above 18 is considered abnormal, with scores between 11-18 considered as fair...meaning not dysplastic but not ideal. Hope this helps your understanding. |
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| Wyngold |
Maybe post a new thread???
What is interesting about these two examples is that the AB is shorter in body, more balanced, has a correct 30 degree croup. If not allowed to stack in pose would be more under in the rear and have the correct line of pelvic edge through hock line desired by the FCI standard. Id one was to take an actual ruler to the photo one can see that the top dog "fits" in a square. And you are comparing a bitch to a dog. Tara is also a DUAL champion she is a very big running Field trial winner that would be impressive to some die hard spring trialers in France...she is also just 8 generations away from Kaer de Cornouaille, and also has France Ch. Gwennec de L'Argos behind her. Also Tara is not a typical "show lined" dog she comes from primarily Field trial lines in the USA. And her Owner Jessica has handled her to many of her field wins and most all of her show wins as well. We need a lot more dedicated owners who will spend the time and money on their dogs field work first and foremost. JMHO I still maintain there are excellent examples in every country and while I do not intentionally cross the two, I still consider them one and the same breed as do many "French Officials" not posting publically. My partner does have dogs who are of blended American and French lines since it is the norm from where he is from, he has great hip scores and his dogs have beaten France imports under a "French" breed specialist. So to say that one cannot have correct dogs that combine the two "styles" is fear talking. I have an AB bitch puppy who has an exceptional head...have had France breeders remark how they liked her to later learn she is pure American lines.... I do believe that in recent years there have been some very horrible heads in AB and some very long bodied dogs and this weekends photos of the ABC summer specialty weekend makes me a bit sick to see....but then there are the few dogs still out ther and breeders who do not make general exceptions ie...select dogs on the "average" but they still breed to type and will only show type even if they do not win under poor judges. What will help all in the Ab vs EB debate in my opinion is education as to what is correct, and a willingness to be open to some "change" if the French breeders will breed to the correct hind quarter assembly as written in their standard and get those steep croups corrected they may find they will start to get better hips scores.... |
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| gundoglover |
Thankyou, Wyngold, you have lucidly expressed what I have instinctively thought on this subject but with far greater depth and knowledge: one standard (with minor variations from country to country) = one breed (albeit with several styles and interpretations of that standard). | ||||||
| doganjo |
I wonder why they do not post publicly? what are they afraid of? Discussion?
I picked those two photos randomly from the internet just to indicate there were differences sufficient in my mind to show they are a different breed. I had no idea what the American dog was as I do not really take an interest in them so they all look very similar to me. I suppose you might call it typiness? The UK dog is Sh Ch Rio du Bois Saussin - a French Import, bred by Monsieur Hemon, and owned by Mr & Mrs Lockie, and is behind a a number of the Patouche and Tournesol dogs amongst others. He is actually very short loined in real life. Photos taken at an inaccurate angle and the way a dog is set up can be deceptive but they don't hide everything. The American dog is posed, the UK one is in natural stance. As you say, you do not consider them different breeds. I do. I only own, breed, judge, show, and work one breed, the Epagneul Breton - complete generations of French breeding right back to day one of the breed, with no American Brittany in them. There is only a little American Brittany blood in the UK back to an original import in the Bredebeck dogs, but the blood must be quite dilute by now, so we don't see them here - except when one or two have come to Crufts from abroad. I accept what you and GDL believe, we are all entitled to our opinions, but the dog that came under me was most definitely DIFFERENT! Right, MY lecture is over - I'm off out for some fun with Allez. Have a nice day, y'all
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| Patricia |
Again this is interesting...I can see that Goldie has, and has seen more " typy" American dogs in her country. Good subject would be to post more photos of both "types" to compare?  Goldie have you more " French looking" photos untrimmed for us to see?
I did see a nice American bitch but still don't like pink- not tobacco- noses. Or yellow eyes. it changes the expression I think. There are also some horrible French dogs it is true. But some only want to produce the best we can, taking in consideration all aspects. As Anne mentionned Rio and it concerns me too, I will say this dog has produced me the most biddable and workable progeny for my kennel. Having met his breeder, one would have been hard pushed to find someone more honest and concerned about quality and ability in the field... The croup and the hip subject is also interesting:Again, could we have some examples proving the theory??? For GDL, I will say I am not saddened but rather horrified when looking at the breeds on the Westminster video. Some are Nothing like the country of origin  . The FCI takes the standard from the original country in the case of foreign dogs. So how about the other way? what goes wrong in between? the judges or??????
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| doganjo |
Fashion? We aren't too concerned with fashion in the UK - probably because of our size and numbers of dogs, but that might be a reason in other countries? |
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| Wyngold |
I do not know what others do in a breeding program.... But I for one try to select dogs to breed together that are healthy, sound, have as close to the desired traits I am seeking, and whose pedigrees are proven to provide those traits. I do understand that most consider breeding an experiment and a crap shoot at best...but then it really should not be....if you have an understanding of genetic traits and what is dominant and how to use that information, one can make pretty good strides in the direction one wants to head to. For most people breeding is mostly economics....they have to place those puppies they themselves do not wish to keep, so, they do not publically speak about thier health issues or faults for the most part. Pretty typical human nature....I find this same policy when speaking about the AB vs EB debate. Why many do not speak publically is because of political/personal aspirations where they feel they can do the most good is quietly behind the scenes, or because they feel they will be outcasted or prevented from "winning" with their dogs. If you speak to enough "old-timers" you will find and hear about the political nature of trialing and showing in France, and the struggle between the birthplace of the breed and the parisians in dictating breed policy. I know this happens everywhere and not just in the country of origin. As for the structure and dysplasia issue I have lived it as a breeder of Ger. Shepherds. From the time I was a 12 yr old I collected and filed away all of the Hip Dysplasia Symposiums(world compendiums) booklets that were published and made available for purchase. The so called PennHip proceedure has been in existance prior to PennHip claiming it back in the 1970's. Anyone who is serious about fixing a problem can do the research and read all the scientific data on the dogs who were affected and the ones that were not. One can read about the width of the normal pelvis and the zone of weight bearing and how all pups are "born" normal and how the first 60days of life is critical to developement from the polygenetic part of the disease and how to reduce some of this environmental component so that one is only looking at the genetics. I still maintain that standardized radiographs can be used to help reduce CHD my foundation bitch when I lived in Hawaii was dysplastic in a classic "stovepipe" appearance with arthrosis. From that same bitch in 2 generations I got whole litters OFA good and excellent. But so long as "breeders" make it optional for Hip Scoring they will never know what their lines contain or ever correct their program. Without full pedigree depth(many generations more than 3) and breadth (full litter) of hip scores you have ZERO information about your breeding program. Even if PennHip is a great tool for measuring ligament length it os only as good as the same pedigree data I mention above. Without full records you cannot base a breeding choice on a single dogs score, this is why breeding A to A is no guarantee or breeding great score to great score does not work. If you do not have information on all littermates of the selected dog and have a good depth of pedigree (large numbers of generations) you have absolutley nothing to work with period. I hear on these forums about being a "hobby" breeder and that it is done for fun and that no "small breeder" wants to spend the money to do "tests" and assume that their program is disease free "because no one mentions any health issues". When one operates on these "false Ideals" that is where a breed looses in the end. And even those breeders who do the right thing get hurt as they have a much harder time finding dogs that will fit their breeding goals as the "others" are not on the same page. I do not know what the average puppy goes for, but at least for me my time is not part of the equation...and so the testing and food is the primary expenses. The showing is recreation and an expense I would be paying anyway...if I want to think of profits only then one would certainly cut corners and that is why puppy farmers crank out back to back litters and or breed a bitch 6-8 times in her lifetime to make back "money". And then there are some who only want fame so they finish titles on mediocre dogs and then place them in pet homes afterwards just to say their kennel produced "quality # of champions". Everyone has thier own agenda and program and needs...that is just what it is. Frankly, as far a CHD goes if the registries truely want to help improve health in breeds, they would take in all affected radiographs and record them for "Free", the main reason most do not submit affected is, why should they pay to have an "obviously bad result read", If the fees were to be returned then the databases would be much more accurate. It is a pretty sad testiment to read what is written here that only maybe 10 dogs are recorded to one parent and it was say a popular stud...there is something very wrong...definatley a lack of caring in my way of thinking, or obviously a poor production record as only 10 were evaluated??? at least that is what I would be thinking. Oh by the way Doogie would have finished his AKC show championship had he been groomed for it and he would have finished very easily just about anywhere in the USA...so would that make him a poor EB or just a good example of the generic liver colored "Brittany population" in the USA? I had two AB friends look at him after I saw him and one professional handler who felt he would finish easily. I know I could have finished him here in the PNW as he was much better than many dogs shown at that time. I did not care for his maner of working but I attribute it mostly to the way he was raised and trained with too much control, somehting that could be easily fixed using some regression work. Hopefully the folk who have him now appreciate him much better. Even with the USA being as big as it is those who are active and dedicated to the breed knows what goes on in the breed everywhere. And by the way DC Tara was last years ABC National Specialty BOB, she is also NOT OFA hip certified/ she has a PennHip score which is not available to the public...another aversion I have with PennHip not having a publically searchable database. And yes I do have an AB/EB combination male that I treat as an AB and will continue to use in my AB breeding program pending hip and eye certification he is clear Liver and White, he has a rather steep pelvis which he got from his EB parent, better bone from his AB parent and hopefully the strong hip genes form his AB lines. Interestingly some AB owners have no prejudice against the EB as far as conformation and type go, they have a color fear against Black because the AKC standard disqualifies it, and so if your great pup in the litter is of the worng color you can't compete with it...that is the problem that exists in the USA and Canada and no where else in the world. Sad fate for a breed.... And yes got to get back to my boxing/cleaning chores. |
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| doganjo |
Goldie, that was honestly very interesting reading. I think you have some good theories there, and I am sure we would like to hear more of the actual figures to back up your various points - if you have time, please.
And on a personal basis, I have always suspected what you say below
and I was so disappointed that his title was not completed. Steve bought him from me and was so enthusiastic when he arrived, and it was Sherry I understand, who, after their marriage, decided his hunt drive wasn't strong enough - at 18 months or so I was told. A litter was taken from him prior to Chuck and Martha getting him (presumably to offset all the import costs), but I haven't any idea how they turned out. I understand that Chuck has him out shooting regularly in season now so his hunt drive must have miraculously appeared I am so pleased you liked him - he was pick of that litter from the dogs. I always let my best pups go to homes where they will be shown/worked more than I could if I kept them. I was lucky keeping Freckles but was unable to travel the distances to shows to make her up with her final ticket, and I think at 8 years she won't do it now.
I don't breed often but I do take great care of what I breed from and to when I do - as you do. Thank you for the complement. |
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| Patricia |
A litter was taken from him prior to Chuck and Martha getting him (presumably to offset all the import costs),
Anne, I have seen one of Doogie's daughters. She belongs to Bill Kelley. She is called Goldie funnily enough...She was mated I believe to his dog " Cachet". Bill is also supposed to have a pup from Baileys's sister Bastille in exechnge from some training done on Arius de St Lubin. But I am not sure how the whole situation is going. Like Doogie, I found Victoria's quartering restricted and yet with her father like she has
Goldie, we try to have as many dogs hip scored as we can but unless we paid for the potential owners's hips scoring -which is a minimum of £120-per dog, that would be a bit expensive. People do the hips who are either interested, or want to breed themselves. That limits us. There are huge steps being done by the Animal health in Newmarket on all sorts and it is very positive for many breeds. I agree with you about ALL hips being good or bad should be read and published. We would have trueer figures. In an ideal world.... |
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| Mugi |
I have a friend on the continent who charges more for her puppies but reimburses half the hip score once she has seen a copy of the official entry of her scores. She has plenty of people wanting pups from her and so far has achieved a 100% uptake on having her puppies scored. Ok, she is a small breeder who is a vet nurse by profession and breeding long-haired weimaraners.
A strategy to ponder? But in the UK we need to educate the 'public' to see the relevance of health screening as something other than a knee-jerk reaction to a tv programme. We are allegedly a nation of animal lovers but I see little evidence of that fact in my dealings with many (bad day dealing with rescue issues for both weims and ESS  ).
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| Wyngold |
BINGO ! That is what happens most of the time here in the USA, pet or not they are charged for Xrays and such listed on the sales agreement. When they get it done they get rebated. Many also do this for basic woking titles like Hunt Testing or NAVHDA testing. While a small incentive it is still an incentive. We also give a 1 year intor membership to a puppy buyer to the club...pet buyer or not, sometimes gettng a magazine initiates them to look into competitions when they see the names and photos of dogs in the magazine. Some get drawn into the game that way. All of course helps the breed in the end and also fosters education. Another thing that many do here in the USA is have Radiograph "parties" We contract with a Veterinarian for a day he is closed to the public and have it a club xray day at a discounted rate, much like how we also have Eye CERF clinics at many dog shows. Since we cannot move xray machines around unless you are a Large animal practitioner and has a portable unit it must be done at a clinic location. We are also given "Breeder/kennel" rates in the USA by OFA so when we submit 3 or more dogs in the same envelope to OFA we get a discount. As a breeder I collect all xrays from my litters and submit them at one time so everyone gets the discounted rate on submission. It goes a long way into getting compliance. Of course many do not respond or do it, but if I try and organize it all and put a time frame on it when checking in on the pups it goes to getting many scored much of the time. |
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| doganjo |
I have always done that.
Our KC/BVA Scheme doesn't allow this. Each owner must submit the dog for x-ray, and the Vet submits the plates to the BVA. Just goes to show the differences between our countries. What do other countries do - Australia, New Zealand? |
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| Mugi |
The trouble is here Goldie that the British do not like being coerced into doing anything.
I hope Patricia doesn't mind me talking about her but Chase (bred by her) is endorsed so I can't register progeny, some people who have approached me interested in using him at stud are incensed when I tell them this. Now I bought him knowing he would be endorsed and I accepted that fact and know what it would take to lift said endorsement ................ I know that a certain number of criteria have to be fulfilled AND Patricia has to have final discretion. As I say - dog bought knowing this and accepting this and if anything changes in the future that would be solely up to Patricia. If she had asked me to sign a contract saying I WOULD hip score him I would and if I had a 'help' towards that cost then I would ....... but I have had him eye tested too when there is no need, because I am interested whether he has progeny or not as I feel data is important. But take me back a few years before my weim had massive health problems and I was a typical pet owner who didn't know breed clubs existed for anyone other than people who showed, that didn't know about or understand health testing. I was a caring pet owner - but a very ignorant one. In the UK we have a massive job to educate in a calm and rational manner and I very much fear that those passionate enough to care are in the minority, especially as our Kennel Club is flawed and currently under attack and therefore trying to please all while serving none. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
I'm not sure this would make much difference over here as a lot of people who do have bad looking x-rays don't want the information made public for other people to know! The breeder of my dogs has always been willing to pay for all the puppies she has bred to be hip/shoulder/eye and now elbow tested too. |
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| Patricia |
Things are always different in various countries. When I buy an adult in France, we get the Xray plates. Here, the vet retains them.
I had to buy them when I sent those awful Xrays back to Leon Lelouet to be brought up at committee. They had a problem with hips. It costs £35 to get the BVA to read the Xrays, from a minimum of £120 to anesthesise the dog. Much more in other parts of the country, less up maybe in Scotland? To pay for elbows, eyes etc..would be an awful lot of money for the breeder to pay unless the said breed was expensive-ie £800 to 900- Brittanys roughly sell for £450, 500 or a bit more according to age, quality and achievement of parents. You add the docking, microchipping, tattooing- for my own benefit, so I can have my name on the Register always- plus all other costs, stud fee etc etc... and would it cover costs? Though some would, many wouldn't. As Sue says, you can't force the English to do something, you have to explain and educate. |
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| doganjo |
No, much the same up here.
I think Sue perhaps meant Britain? I'm sure you do too, Tricia! Just try making a Scot do anything he or she didn't want to do
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| gundoglover |
In Australia, you can check with the vet prior to having the dog x-rayed: some retain x-rays and others give them to the owner. There is also a choice of sending the x-rays to the AVA or an approved individual radiographer for scoring. Many breeders choose the latter to have the consistency of the same pair of eyes scoring the hips from their kennels when they make breeding decisions, because this reduces the variability in hip scores that may be due to differences in scoring between panel members. However, there is an extra cost to having the plates scored and so those "read" by the local vet as too high to breed may save themselves the cost of an official reading and so artificially reduce the breed average score. You can also have the hip score recorded on the the dog's data held by the registration body. For some breeds this recording is compulsory for litters to be registered. | ||||||
| Mugi |
Putting my logical head on ............ I see no point at all in a person not submitting poor plates. Of course I can see the breeders persective of not wanting to publish on the one hand but we accept that poor hips are not necessarily caused by one factor and a factor we haven't discussed is the fact that poor positioning of the dog for x-ray may also have a contribution.
But if we omit all poor scores over breed mean then surely we are potentially artificially lowering our breed average and making life harder for ourselves down the years as we will be possibly ruling out some good dogs from our breeding pool. I don't mean we should be ignoring the desire to always lower hip scores (along with the other reasons we should be selecting good sound stock) but for me it is simple, test and publish whatever the result .... or don't test and answer the questions that may be raised by people wanting to use your dog or buy your puppies. |
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| doganjo |
My stance is to only breed below the average. There are plenty of dogs and bitches in our present gene pool with low scores. I know there are environmental and feeding influences to HD as well as the hip scores themselves but anyone intending breeding should have bought their dog from low score parents and brought it up correctly, with good food and correct exercise. Yes it makes life harder for breeders but it makes life better for the dogs. JMVHO |
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| Jayne Cutler |
With regard to breeding from low scores. I think it would be a great idea if we could get all the litter mates scored which would give the breed a true picture on hips. At present very few pet people hipscore their dogs they are usually only done when the vet has found an issue with lameness etc.
We have always had the odd high hipscore even in the early dogs but most of these were not bred from. However, having 2 litter brothers from a low hipscored bitch (5 total) both fed and exercised the same, one has a low score (10) and the other (36) The low scored dog is being used at stud and the other never will be. Purely out of interest both dogs were scored at the same time at a cost of £500 and the vet contacted me during the procedure saying that the one dog would not settle and she was wary of giving the dog any more anaesthetic. Having never had a hip issue with my breeding programme I told her to submit the x-ray for scoring. The sad thing is we cannot have his hips scored again. Jayne |
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| eddieh |
I have heard of an instance in another breed where two seperate x -rays were submitted for one dog, the second being submitted under the name of another dog. The latter of the two was assessed as having a much lower score. If this is possible, it makes me wonder why subsequent tests are not allowed. Surely it is only the owner who has anything to lose. Lots of dosh! |
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| lagopuslagopus |
For your own peace of mind you could have them x-rayed again by someone else who's maybe more experienced at doing hip x-rays just to see. I'd never go to my own vets for this procedure. |
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| Patricia |
I have also heard of two instances when the dog has come back from the vet being lame Why I wonder?
You can also resubmit but it is costly. In France you get your Xrays and you can resubmit them. There are I believe 3 approved people by the CEB to do this procedure. I can't see why we can't do the same ..as long as we pay! |
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| gundoglover |
Mugi, I agree that all hip x-rays should be scored. However, it is the vets who need to be convinced. They are clearly not encouraging people who have their dogs hips x-rayed to then send them for scoring. Waldo's Annie is just one case of a dog x-rayed, plates "read" by the local vet, and no suggestion to the owner of sending them for official scoring. I would imagine that this is the case with vets the world over.
I think that the idea of charging more for puppies and then reimbursing part of the purchase price when owners send the breeder the hip score at 12 months or older is a very good idea. I confess that this hadn't occurred to me, but when I am ready to breed again (won't be a for several years), I'll seriously consider doing so. After all, the purchase price is the cheapest part of owning a puppy (feeding, vet bills, registration, insurance, etc, etc). |
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| highclare |
I take all my dogs to a really really good place to get there hips x-rayed. It is near Southampton. The people who x-ray the dogs do only that and they only give the dogs a sedative and not an anisthetic.
You go there fill out your own forms and then you get called in. You hold your own dog and stay with it at all times. After they develope the film they call you back in and have a chat about the hips. If you or they are not happy with the x-ray then it is done again. The charge is £60 for the x-ray + the BVA. If you want pups done under 1 year of age that it only costs you about a tenner I think. That can be useful if you are in any dout about you young stocks hips. I would not go to a vet and I would not have my dogs have an anisthetic. Gill and the Mabeleen who went to Southampton to get her hips X-Rayed. |
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| Patricia |
That is another side of the hip scoring: whether to anesthesise or not...The French and my own vet certainly advocate putting the dog right under. You have to have complete relaxation in order to straighten the dog's hind legs like a rabbit.
Knowing that 2 bitches I bred went there, I found one had a bad reaction to the ACP given. I am not at all sure I would go that route. Pierre Willems I know is wary of anything else than complete anesthetic. Saying this I have had a previous vet who sedated only but I would need complete trust in the vet. I have found many do not regularly hip score and I would want the most experienced and best vet in the practice. I now have a dilemna as my own vet has left- I am now on a hunt for someone whom I will trust and does not treat breeders as the bad guys
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| doganjo |
Part of the problem is that anaesthetics have reversal drugs whilst sedation doesn't. If anything goes wrong they can bring the dog round quickly but not with sedation. | ||||||
| Mugi |
Both sedation and full anaesthesia can be reversed and I personally prefer sedation as the dog has a much quicker 'recovery'. As we all do I prefer a vet who is experienced in the techniques and thoroughly understands what will be required by the BVA panel and I am lucky that my regular vet is a vet who does a lot of scoring in this area using sedation. When he went through Chase's x-ray with me he was pretty accurate in how he was finally scored, erring on the side of caution as opposed to optimism .
I am not sure which sedation drug was used but I know ACP is not used in 'my' practice as it isn't well tolerated by many dogs. Patricia - woud recommend Chase's vet but as it is pretty near Malvern showground that is not really practical for you  .
Gill, I know many people who use the service you mention and I have heard nothing but good of her .......... although I believe actually making the appointment can be a problem , once made I don't know anyone who has said a bad word about the service and if I didn't have a vet in walking distance who I trust to do the job I know I would head in her direction.
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| Wyngold |
Patricia and others: ACP or commonly known as Acepromazine is a tranquilizer. It is a tranquilizer that is not recommended for use in breeds of dogs that may have the Mdr1 gene that makes them reactive to things like Ivermectine, etc. ACE (american call name) is also known to be a drug that can induce seizures in animals with a family background of such, and in sight hounds has been known to delay recovery with slow excretion by the liver. It basically lowers the threshold for inducing seizures.
Because I have a Veterinary background I inquire as to the anesthetic protocols should my dog need to be put under for dentistry or surgery. Many Vets use a pre-anesthetic cocktail of ACE/Atropine mainly because ACE is of the family of drugs like Compazine slows the brain respose to regurgitate/prevent nausea. They use this cocktail because they do not trust pet owners to "Fast" their dogs prior to a proceedure and makes aspiration from regurgitation a concern for the patient. ACE is not reversable and if a dog is rather "fat" can be stored in the fatty tissue for slow recovery. This drug is often used in earcropping proceedures because it allows for a slow wake up in the pup and to prevent head banging trauma after proceedure. This drug accounts for many cases of anesthetic reactions resulting in death or failure to wake up when not used or monitored properly. It prolongs the effect of sedation even when using reversable agents. There are many newer chemical restraint agents available that do have antagonist to reverse effects. The "old" one was Innovar now there is a milky looking one called Popanolol. Both safe and often used in c-sections because its effects can be controlled in the newborns to some degree as well as using Dopram to stimulate respiration. I have not been an active Veterinary technician in quite a few years but I do value my dogs and so try to keep up with anesthetic advances and want to avoid any catastrophy if I can. ACE is often prescribed for fearful dogs, for dogs that are thunder shy, etc. But a key question for its use has always been family history of seizures...if there are then usually Valium is prescribed instead. Now with the discovery of why some dogs react to ACE and the Mdr1 genes associated with this reaction many Vets will not even use this product especially in mixed breed dogs where breeds might be unknown or hard to predict as a gene carrier. It is really tempting to write on here but I do have so much to do and so little time to get it done so bye again for now. |
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| doganjo |
We appreciate your knowledge, though, Goldie, so don't disappear altogether. | ||||||
| highclare |
Its strange that you say you need to have a complete anisthetic to get the legs back like a rabbit.
The new thing is not to put the dog compelely out then the dog gives a little resistence to having its legs pulled out so keeping the joint more natural, instead of the vet pulling the hip joints slightly apart giving a false score. They have been doing that in Sweden for 5 years and all scores have improved, in fact the breeders have been hip scoring there dogs by law for 20 years and it has been found that the hip scores have had NO significant improvement at all. That is not a reason to use bad hips if the animal is not worth breeding from anyway. Gill and the Mabeleen |
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