| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
most numerous ancestors in pedigreesAs we must have now a fair amount of Brittanys in the UK, I have this question.
Hope someone can answer me? Which are the most numerous ancestors( names or affixes) cropping up in todays's pedigrees? How often are they repeated? Are they any specific names which appear on a regular basis? I am interested. On my part, I have found from some top French pedigrees a pattern. ie Varim des Sources Claires, Indy de St Lubin to name but 2 who feature heavily in today's pedigrees. How about us? in the UK??? I really love studying bloodlines( I know of another member who does too!) and I often digest lines on the book d'elevage. To also check their " credentials" in work and show results. Thank you for your help... 
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| Annie as admin |
How many generations back, Patricia? We have a breed database so I (or Jayne or Margaret) can check any dog that is registered. Give me a list and number of generations and I'll have a go.
Annie |
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| guy |
wouldn't it be nice to get the UK breed database info into the French Livre d'Elevage - on line. | ||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Link to the site 
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| guy |
http://www.livredelevage.net/fr/livre/liste/
once you have selected a dog click on the word 'ascendants' - at the bottom and often hidden by the web designers details !!!! You may have to resize the browser window to get at it. |
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| Patricia |
OK I'll reword it...In your database, is there one or more dogs which crop up way more than others in our dogs in the UK?
Thanks Anne, I appreciate your help. 
I get the Kennel Gazette but not the breed record supplement. That is what really interests me... I certainly remember one or two ( not particularly members's dogs) that have mated half of England's bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Or even the UK's bitches 
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| Patricia |
I will name one outstanding stud now. in my eyes: Whatever bitch he mated the pups were beautiful. Joymonds Valet:  Urak of Joymonds X Dorvalstan Tania.
I had the privilege to have his daughter with a little help from Joymonds Victoriana( which made me fall in love with the Black) She herself was a daughter of Ska. 
I waited 6 months for a pup and came away with 2 Brits. Thank you to Ray and Joyce
Through her son and 5 generations later, come Baileys and Chase!!
Having waited for the right dog was so much more appreciated... |
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| Lin Dyke |
My first Brittany was from Urak, out of Kenive Belle. He was so special to me, but unfortunately had bad hips. He put one out at fourteen months of age and had a full orthoplasty. He had a full and happy life to nearly fourteen years of age and got me hooked on the breed 
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| Lin Dyke |
PS He is the o/w in my avatar. | ||
| Britmania |
Our Spice , through her sire is a great granddaughter X2 of Urak.
Firstly through Joymonds Adele (Urak X Uhelenn de Saint Lubin) and secondly Joymonds Vagabond (Urak X Dorvalstan Tania of Joymonds. I would be worried though if several names are repeating in a five or even six generation pedigree as this would signify too much inbreeding on linebred dogs. |
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| barbara |
Walgoreg Canard du Fosscott is great grandfather of my puppies and he is a son of Joymonds Valet and Dorvalston Ursine de Walgoreg. Canard appears twice in their pedigree
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| Patricia |
Apart from Urak, I knew all those dogs... Uhelenn was a beautiful bitch, very typical of this kennel
Walgoreg Canard ie " Canny" was a super looking dog who did a lot of winning, I also liked his brother Copain. We were indeed lucky to have some very good specimens, and who were all male
One I loved was Boy du Hameau de Sorny. Solid substantial dog. Ahhhh.... the good old days....
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| Annie as admin |
Yes, Boy was good in body, but had a 'Springer' head. That's why he was not bred much and went to a working home | ||
| Patricia |
Springer head???? Well, I have seen one lately but that would not be my description of it!!! I know his stop was pronounced. I used him twice myself.
And he did produce Hautain with Enchantee.... |
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| Annie as admin |
That's what Margaret and Pete thought - I didn't say it. | ||
| Patricia |
I think I am digressing from my original subject and won't comment any further as to my thoughts on " heads"
According to the database,which are the dogs which appear more than others????by a lot? |
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| Annie as admin |
Best ask Jayne - I don't use the database much. I can produce a list of sires which show Tala and Tchao as most prolific, could perhaps produce other lists if given spoecific criteria. | ||
| Jayne Cutler |
Data BaseHiIf you let me know which dog or Bitch you are looking for I can give you the information. I can also give you details on which breeders have produced the most litters and which sires have produced the most. The clubs database also keeps all the show critiques which are published. If you just email which searches you are looking for I will forward the information on to you. Whilst I am on the subject of the datebase I would be grateful if people could send me photos for the datebase as a record of photos is also kept. Jayne |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Hi Jayne...I didn't know that show critiques are on the database...how far do they go back as I missed some of Ghill's
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| Jayne Cutler |
Sorry I am late replying back to your message. But it has been rather hectic sorting everything out. Richard is off for his operation on Wednesday.
Just let me know which critiques you have missed and I will have a look. The critiques go back several years. Jayne |
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| johnhod |
Congratulations on the result at Blackpool Jayne | ||
| Lin Dyke |
Best wishes to Richard for Wednesday.
Love to you all. |
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| Lin Dyke |
PS Have just seen your other post. Hope all goes well for Richard on Friday. | ||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Jayne please give Richard all our best wishes for Wednesday and I hope the operation goes well.
The dog that occurs most in Merlins pedigree is; Puk des Pigenettes who appears 12 times Next is; ChT. Jipsie de Goas Vilnic who appears 11 times. Not sure about Ghillie as I haven't had time to look her's up 
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| Annie as admin |
Puk des Pigenettes was the sire of our Dorvalstan Vitalis, Brett, the first Brit to be shown in Scotland. Puk was one of the first imports by Stan Smith. Jipsie was the dam of the second import, Samantha de Goas Villinic. Stan mated Puk and Sam once, and included Angie Lewis' D. Ulrick. Puk was mated to Rolline de St Tugen twice, Brett was in the second litter. The first included Dorvalstan Tansy(Eileen Hughes) and Tania (Ray Greenwood). Puk, Tansy and Tania were the first three Brittanys ever shown at Crufts. Puk was worked on the Dunalastair estate near Pitlochry by keeper Tommy Addison. He was particularly good on the deer count. Just thought you'd all like to know that..............
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| guy |
how many generations back are we all going? |
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| Annie as admin |
I think Jan must be going 7 or 8 generations back, counting Merlin as generation one. I just had a look and Puk is on his mothers side with Sam on his fathers but there's a lot of Joymonds and Fosscott on both sides back there and they were all line bred. I suppose we should go back to where the French breeding starts maybe?
Allez has Puk in generations 6(twice) and 7(twice) but I haven't looked further back than that. I'm just going to check to see which dog adn bitch are most frequent in 7 generations, would have to extend the pedigree if I have to go further back. Annie |
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| Annie as admin |
Taking Allez as generation one, the most frequent dog is Puk (5 times), then Ska (4 times), and bitches it's Vanity (5 times) then a whole lot of line bred French ones at 4 times. Not sure if this is a worthwhile exercise since these are so far back? I was always told that after the 3rd generation the genes are so dilute they don't have much influence | ||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Would that count when they appear so often
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| Annie as admin |
Yes, but you could go back 200 generations and say my dog goes back to Max de Callac 15 times
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| Lin Dyke |
Puk and Sam appear in my first Brits pedigree, they were his mothers sires (Dorvalstan Ullyses) parents. Puk is also a ggg'parent to Rudi on his sires (Presthill Octavia) side. There are several names Annie mentions that appear in one or the others and both (I think) but this is all beginning to give me a headache now, and I dare not look at Coppers pedigree or I shall end up with a migraine
Back to work tomorrow after two weeks off 
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
What I meant was........if a dog appears 12 times in the 6th generation there will be more chance of his/her influence being passed through than if the same dog only occurred four times closer up.
PS Can we go back 200 generations
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| eddieh |
You could manage 50 generations in 100 years if the average age of a dog bred from was 2 years old, so I suppose, realistically, the answer is no. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
So Annie saying 200 is just not feasable Typical
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| eddieh |
Excuse me as I step out of the ring 
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Lyn, the dog that appears most in Coppers pedigree is;
CHCS T Ibere de Saint Tugen and there are twelve occurrences closest as great great great great great great grand parent. And then; Ildes de Saint Tugen and Puk des Pigenettes both appear 8 times. |
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| Annie as admin |
I think this exercise is only useful if we specify how many generations we are going back to so we can compare like with like. I only found Puk once in Merlins 7th generation. So how far back are we going - as I asked before. The 200 generations was just an example. No it isn't feasible, but how far back is there any influence even if there are multople occurrences? This is a very sensible thread I agree, but we need to define boundaries for it to be useful. May I suggest 15 generations maximum as that takes us back to say 10 years in France prior to import?
Annie |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
But if he occurs 12 times would that not make his influence greater than a dog that only appears twice say 3 generations back Particulary if he was a pre-potent sire
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| Annie as admin |
Possibly but I don't think Puk was prepotent - I owned Brett, I knew a good few of his sisters and brothers and they were all different. Vesta was big like Brett, Ursine and Ursula were very small, Voletta and Vesta were long, Brett was short - their heads varied too. I think Ska was reckoned to be prepotent from what Pierre has told me. No matter which bitch he was put to he consistently threw well made pups that were also excellent workers.
I don't think we have any way of tracing which dogs were prepotenet except the more recent ones bred in the UK. Perhaps PAtricia might know of French ones. Annie |
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| Annie as admin |
Just did a quick check on Allez's pedigree - only picked ONE dog and Allez plus 10 generations - a top winning French champion - CHCS/T Ibere de St Tugen, Sire of the great SKA - found him 33 times in 10 generations, mostly in generations 7 and 8 - 10 times in each; but also once in gen 5, twice in gen 6; 6 times in gen 9 and 4 times in gen 10. Ibere also sired and grandsired a number of other French champions. I'm afraid I really don't know what to read out of that, does anyone else? I suspect most people only have at most 6 generation pedigrees, and the majority of dogs in these are UK bred.
Does anyone want to trace further back. As I said Jayne is the expert on this database but I can have ago and I'm sure Jan would too. Annie |
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