| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| doganjo |
National GundogNational Gundog today - Best of Breed was Tarward Theia - homebred and owned by Joanne Robinson. I believe this is her 2nd CC, so congratualtions and good luck for her 3rd, Joanne! And DCC went to Patouche Acropole owned by Bill Molton, congrats there too, Bill. Results not online yet so not sure of the reserves - I think it was Janette's Pretty Pachanga for RCC in bitches, congratulations Nettie! |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Dog CC was in fact Jayne Cutler's Jayricnbrits Briafel not Patouche Acropole.
RDCC was Alithea Lockie's Tournesol Braconnier. |
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| doganjo |
Sorry, misheard the person who told me - that was limit dog that Bill won, rest were with-held in that class. | ||||
| Patricia |
What is going on????  
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| guy |
There were four dogs in limit dog, Bill Moulton's dog Patouche Acropole was given first. No further dogs were selected. No public reason was given for not placing any further dog. | ||||
| Patricia |
I guess he will mention his reasons for withholding in his critique??? Hoping we will have the pleasure of reading it... | ||||
| doganjo |
He's done that before - not quite sure when but I remember hearing about it. I've only shown Flash under him and had RCC both times, but I can't recall it being wt either of those. Maybe it was Crufts? | ||||
| Pippa's Pack |
Sorry if you misheard me Anne, I meant Bill's dog was first in his class and in fact the only one placed in that class. I do not think judge gave an explanation at the time but may well have done so after judging had finished. As I said to you, I really cannot see the difference between with-holding and eliminating - in either case the dog goes home with nothing! Well done to Joanne's Theia and to Jayne's Briafael both of whom earned their second CCs today. |
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| Pippa's Pack |
Incidentally, this was the first Championship Show I have attended where no passes were issued. As far as I could see, no checks were made on dogs either entering or leaving the showground. If someone removed an unattended dog from a bench they would have every chance of taking it outside and out of the area. Also I think it would have been quite easy to take an unentered dog into the show.
If you did not purchase a catalogue you had to find your bench number by looking at a list posted on the wall of the sheds where the benching was situated. This was not in very large print - had to find my glasses to read it. This is probably how things will go in the future - but not sure that it is desirable. |
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| Patricia |
It sounds like total chaos all round...As you say Gay, no difference in between eliminating and withholding Comes to the same thing: At least in France they tell you why. Hope this will be explained in the critique???
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
That's if he does a critique, he doesn't usually does he 
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| doganjo |
I gather he didn't even have the decency to explain what was happening to the three exhibitors? I have seen reports from him for previous shows so time will tell. | ||||
| johnhod |
Difficult to work out where the judge was coming from with his decision to withhold. As far as I can remember all the dogs in the class have been well placed under other judges. | ||||
| doganjo |
Reasons to with-hold are laid down by KC. These are different from dismissing a dog from the ring, or indeed from withdrawal by the exhibitor. The Judge must have believed he had reason to with-hold on lack of merit only (in his opinion). If he was dismissing any dog he must complete considerable paperwork to be sent to the Kennel Club, so dismissal is rarely done.
Dismissal: A dog that is in an obviously unhealthy condition can be dismissed from the ring but the dismissal must be reported to the Show Management. A dog of a savage disposition should be dismissed from the ring. This dismissal should be reported to the Show Management immediately by Judge or Steward. No dog should be dismissed from the ring apart from the reasons given above. Withdrawal: If a dog goes lame, it is appropriate to allow the handler, if they wish, to withdraw the dog. With-holding: Awards may be withheld because of lack of merit. The judge must mark the Judging Book that the award has been withheld. If the award for third place is withheld no further awards in that class can be given. |
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| Tricky micky |
I think you will find there is a big difference try the red book | ||||
| Tricky micky |
sorry did'nt see anne's version | ||||
| highclare |
Hi All,
I felt the judges whole attitude in the ring was very poor. I do not know this man which is fine but by the time he judged Mabeleen he told me that he was unpopular with the Brittany people but he had a record entery at Crufts and did I give CCs in Brittany's. What had all that got to do with judging my dog. I hate being spoken to in the ring except for being asked the age of my bitch and to move around the ring. I do like a judge to be pleasant and smile in the ring but he was telling me his live story. I didn't know he was unpopular with the Brittany people nor do I care but he also said he would tell me why after he had judged, I didn't hang around to fine out. Welldone to both CC winners. Gill and the Mabeleen. |
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| eddieh |
I know I'm new to showing dogs, but that does sound more than a little bizarre. I respect the right of a judge to withhold placings but would hope that an explanation would be given if it happened to my dog. Hope it didn't spoil anybody's day. |
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| johnhod |
Like Eddie I'm new to all of this but, considering the comments from Gill, I would question the competency of this person to judge.
Surely he is supposed to be judging the dog and as such should limit his discussions in the ring to relevant matters. How, for instance, can Gill's judging qualifications impact on the quality of the dog she is showing? What difference, does the number of dogs entered under him at Crufts have on the quality of different dogs, shown under him in another competition, at another venue on another day (a few years down the line). I had noticed that he did seem to spend a considerable time talking to some people while ignoring others completely. If others have similar experiences to Gill's to relate is this something that should be reported to the KC? |
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| Patricia |
Maybe Gill can enlighten us all as she is a well seasoned exhibitor as well as a successful one...
Do people feel it is accepted to have a conversation with exhibitors? contrary to French judges who dictate their critique to the ring secretary and explain their placings. Do you explain your reasons for with holding at the time, in the critique or afterwards to the exhibitor? The Exhibitor now pays a fair amount of money, they deserve some courtesy? Some dogs are naughty or play up- some have been spooked by a previous judge, maybe it is a young dog, maybe it is hot and bothered? Do you judge the dog or the behaviour if it is a good specimen? Many questions can arise... I feel one should be able to ask the judge what he/ she thinks afterwards?Judges are not Gods. As for popularity, why is this person unpopular? I know some issues have surfaced before, but... People will often enter when they don't know what a judge is likely to do ? I have known this judge at the beginning of me having Brittanys in the UK; ie he had my bitch's litter sister Dorvalstan Colette. |
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| doganjo |
As for popularity, why is this person unpopular? I know some issues have surfaced before, To my knowledge there is no reason for him to be unpopular with exhibitors. There was an incident a number of years ago which was dealt with by the then Committee. It was over and done with at that point as far as I am aware Maybe Gill can enlighten us all as she is a well seasoned exhibitor as well as a successful one.. Gill has already told us what he said to her in the ring. Do people feel it is accepted to have a conversation with exhibitors? contrary to French judges who dictate their critique to the ring secretary and explain their placings. The KC has regulations on this matter - they do not approve of conversations between the Judge and exhibitor on any matter other than the dog in hand. Do you explain your reasons for with holding at the time, in the critique or afterwards to the exhibitor? Briefly in the ring so that they leave the ring knowing the award has been withheld, then immediately after the end of Judging to explain more fully the reasons. But only to the exhibitor concerned and not within earshot of others. Discussing any dog, from which a prize has been withheld, with anyone other than its owner/handler indicates lack of integrity. A brief reason in the printed critique is sufficient, which could cover all awards withheld in any class. Do you judge the dog or the behaviour if it is a good specimen? Behaviour is not being judged, however, if a dog will not stand to be gone over, or allow it's teeth to be examined you cannot make a proper assessment and therefore that dog would need be placed lower in the line-up, or perhaps even unplaced, if there were more dogs than awards. If there were serious concerns about temperament however, the dog would be dismissed from the ring prior to making any awards and the relevant paperwork sent to the Show Manager, then to the KC. This is quite an onerous procedure and the temperament of any breed depends on a Judge's honesty, but it would be only done in extreme circumstances, in my opinion. This booklet although quite lengthy is very well put together and fairly comprehensive in my view http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/488/guidejudges.pdf[/b] Every judge has the right to withhold from any dog he or she thinks lacks merit enough for an award. That is their own personal opinion, nothing more. Integrity is a completely different matter, as is ring conduct. |
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| guy |
Did anyone ask him why? | ||||
| Patricia |
Well explained Anne ...We all have our views. I remember a judge who got quite stroppy when I asked her what was wrong with my dog But we pay our money, we take our chance...or we stay clear of the judge we don't approve of.
I only wanted to get some opinions! 
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| doganjo |
I think asking what a Judge thinks is wrong with your dog implies that he or she has got it wrong. If I want to know what a judge thinks I ask them, would you like to give me a verbal idea of what you are going to write in your critique. Then they can't be bolshy about it. Mind you I never bother asking now - I know my dogs well enough that if a judge doesn't like them it's their problem not mine lol
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| Joanne |
Not sure whether to get involved in this as BOB, however any one who watched the judging of the withheld class could see why he did it. I also apologise to anyone that stayed to watch the group and I did not appear.
I had not expected to get BOB and had a family 80th birthday party arranged with people turning up from all over the country that my husband and I had not seen for 4 years. I really wanted to stay but as someone pointed out to me, how many more birthdays has the generation above me got, so in my heart of hearts I could not stay. Congratulations to Janette, Jayne and Alithia. Joanne 
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| johnhod |
Sorry Joanne, but I watched the limit dog class and couldn't see why he felt the need to withhold all bar one awards. Perhaps you could explain your comment. I appreciate the reason for not placing one of the dogs (covered by Annie, in here explanation above) but not the remainder. | ||||
| highclare |
Hi All,
Great thread this is and I beleive that it is healthy to disscus how judges judge. Going back to Nat Gundog, I want to say that his winners were I hope found by him honestly and I am sure they were. He is entitled to his opinion and that for me is not at issue here. Patricia is right I have been exhibiting for more than 30 years and have shown lots of Gundogs and Hounds. I didn't know this judge at all except that he judged at Crufts. Since Nat Gundog I have found out that when he judged the AM Cockers the exibitors put there money on the table to the KC. Since then he has been banned form judging them! I could tell you of several other exibitors who have found him the same as when he judged us. Well done Anne that was very well explained. To add, when a judge witholds there is a lot of paperwork to do to send to the KC as he has to explain to them why he did with hold. It used to be the norm for judges to come around the benches to explain what they did but that died out many years ago. In Sweden they always explain to all the top 5 in each class why they put them in each position. Also if they give out a second grade they have to explain to the exibitor why before they leave the ring. All they do here is hope that it is explained in the Dog papers in a judges crit if they write one Ha Ha. |
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| doganjo |
I'm not sure that is the case. If a Judge withholds he/she only needs to mark the Judging book accordingly. Withholding can ONLY be done in the case of lack of merit and that is a personal opinion. No Judge is expected to explain his opinions on merit to the KC as far as I know. So no report is necessary for the KC as far as I am aware. If a dog is dismissed then a comprehensive report is required. This is why a judge may withhold rather than actually ask a dog to be removed from the ring. The paperwork is quite onerous and many judges will not take that responsibility |
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| johnhod |
IMHO if judges want respect they have to accept responsibility as part of their role and not be constantly looking for the easy way out. I still find it difficult to believe that of all the classes shown on the day there was only one in which all but one dog lacked merit. |
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| guy |
Perhaps a club officer should ring him and ask what went on? All we are doing is speculating. | ||||
| Patricia |
I also feel that: yes, a dog should be well behaved so the judge can assess it properly, so if is is standing square, it is a lot easier to appreciate its qualities. It is after all a beauty show. But:
Also the judge should make allowances for youngsters, and if a dog does a couple a bounces in enthousiasm- after all we have a working gundog here and many Brits find the show ring a bore  -should they not be forgiven if he/ she sees enough of the correct movement?
Also: some judges can be scary, rough, wear sunglasses or hats or ?? Some have previously mishandled a dog and it is worried. If it is anyhting like what I have seen in one of the rings in France, that could destroy a dog. Yes they should be well schooled, socialised etc... but still they are not robots and can be unpredictable like ALL animals. And have bad and good days...just like we do
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| doganjo |
Since this Club Officer wasn't there I don't feel I can ask. Were there any other Officers there? Perhaps if there were you'd like to ask them to do so and put us all out of our collective speculation. I have clearly stated above what the Kennel Club's position is. If this was not what happened then the exhibitors concerned have every right to ask the reason, in my opinion. Personally, I think I'd have asked him on the day, if my dog had been involved. |
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| highclare |
Hi All,
I agree with Patricia to a point, yes if pups play up it is expected but when you get up to Limit I feel both the dog and handler should know what is expected of them. After all all you want your dog to do is stand and run around a ring like a collected horse for only a few minutes in a week. The rest of the week should be filled with love, food, sleeping and walks. It is not much to ask of any dog don't you think. I feel the problem lies with the little training the handler dose with there dog at home. Lots of handlers use the ring as there training ground then complain if there dog plays up and they don't get the prize they think they deserve. I feel my one Brit Mabeleen always give of her best for me each week. The rest of the week is spent doing all of the above but if she dose something I don't like while in the ring I then try in the week between shows to put it right. I do not spend hours training her to stand still or run around the ring I just give a little time to it so she dosn't make me feel a plonker. I can do that all on my own Ha Ha. |
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| doganjo |
Absolutely right, Gill. After the Junior class I would expect all dogs to stand still for inspection and move without too much bouncing around - enough to assess movement and soundness at any rate. Even Brittanys can be trained to do that.
In any case, until we see Mr McMaster's report we won't know what were his reasons for with-holding, if then............................ |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
I wasn't at National Gundog and thus didn't see what went on but I would like to ask those that were actually in the class and not placed why on earth didn't they go and ask the judge for his comments? Then there would have been no need for all this speculation. | ||||
| Patricia |
Agreed Jan...Maybe the exhibitors were in shock
As for behaviour we all have our opinions! My feelings- and it only involves me- is that we are looking at conformation for possible breeding stock. So a perfectly behaved dog who never puts a foot wrong is great but... As for the rest of the week's training, I am guilty of training for work and steadiness to the birds now arriving, ringcraft not being my highest priority 
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Perhaps they were but surely by the end of judging someone could have got up the gumption and gone and asked
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| Patricia |
I am sure you would have done Janet 
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Too right I would have done wouldn't you as well If my dog/s were fit and healthy and moved well [in my opinion]on the day then I certainly would have queried if he/she wasn't placed when there were only 4 in the class 
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| doganjo |
Me too. | ||||
| highclare |
Me too Jan.
On Tuesday the Welsh Springer judge with held 3rd in open bitch. I would agree with the judge as I would have done the same. 3rd in open bitch qualifies it for Crufts. I know the reason that this judge with held because it is very small and untypical. No one has ever with held from this bitch before but there has always been lots in the class so it has been unplaced. The same judge at the same show then gave a dog who has never had better than a 4th at a Champ show, the CC. So I suppose if the same dog won all the time life would be boring. To me there are great dogs, there are good well made dogs and there are crap dogs. I think there are great judges who have a natural eye for a good dog, good judges who try hard to fit the standard to the dogs and there are juges who can't judge a dog if there life depended on it. The fun is trying to get your dog to fit the judge. Ha Ha |
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| Patricia |
That is so well said 
The ultimate fun is to debate it with other judges!!!!! |
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| highclare |
Thats right Patricia,
The right word is FUN. If exibitors loose there sense of humor then life is hard. It is only dog showing, I have a bitch that has won lots and I think people think that if she fails to win all the time that I am terrible upset well wrong. The only thing that upsets me is if I get beaten by a judge who puts up there mates regardless to what the dogs looks like. That dose utmost harm to the breed in the long term. As Patricia said earler the reason for showing is to find good breeding stock and not to get one over on someone else. So don't anyone come near me if I don't win at Bournmouth (only Kidding). |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
So don't anyone come near me if I don't win at Bournmouth (only Kidding).[/quote]
That's OK Gill, I won't be there so you don't have Ghillie against you.......by the way who's judging 
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| highclare |
It is Trish Grimes, she last judges at LKA and I got a 4th I think, so I don't expect much. Still I have my young Irish Setter to show in Puppy dog and I have had a Best pup in breed, two seconds and one third at Champ shows. I have hopes for him and I am having great fun showing him. Its like showing a Donkey compared to little Mabeleen!
Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
She gave Ghill a RCC at Windsor in 2005 with 7 in the open class. Perhaps we should have entered
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| highclare |
I agree Jan you should. I have just looked up her judging at Windsor and yes you did win a Rcc.
Whoops. Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| doganjo |
She gave Allez the RCC at LKA, but too far for me - in fact until I get a co-driver they are all too far for me except SKC. We have no tickets and only 7 entered for the August show. | ||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
I thought I had written it down right
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| Pippa's Pack |
I always thought that was the reason too but if so why do people show (and win with) dogs with faults such as bad hips, nasty temperament etc, etc.?? |
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| Pippa's Pack |
[quote="Ghilliegumdrop
Perhaps they were but surely by the end of judging someone could have got up the gumption and gone and asked [/quote]
I understand someone did just that and the judge explained his reasons so maybe he will put it in his critique. Possibly the exhibitors themselves also asked him. |
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| Patricia |
Gay...No one asks what the hip scoring is of a dog here...( unlike in France at their club show) And people show for fun and a hobby. It depends how you look at showing.
Temperament...I was meaning if a dog bounces for a couple of strides, it won't worry me. I still don't expect a dog never to have a bad day even if ideally they should be perfectly schooled like a dessage horse
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| Jayne Cutler |
Removal/deleting of comments on this thread.
It's noticeable that several comments, including one of mine, on the judging at National Gundog, have been removed. If this is necessary, why do we have a forum at all and surely it is common courtesy to inform the persons concerned of any deletion. As far as I am aware, anything of this nature can only be carried out by the administrator. Where on Earth are we going? The total thread should have been deleted at the start because it tends to look as if only carefully chosen comments are allowed. Jayne |
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| doganjo |
Well said, Jayne, and well spotted! I hadn't noticed.
Guy, what is going on? I think we need an explanation. |
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| guy |
You may have noticed that this thread is titled National Gundog but it had moved on solidly to a discussion of hips and movement at Bournemouth.
Jayne's post was the logical starting point of this trend so this is the point I split the thread. All posts and comments are intact and in a more appropriate place and the new split thread is receiving posts. Where is the problem? |
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| doganjo |
Absolutely no problem with that at all except that moderators on other fora I read have always made a statement on both threads to advise people where to find what they want. I thought you normally did that too which is why I was puzzled. | ||||
| johnhod |
Thanks Guy. I had the same thoguhts as you on this and was temted to make the split myself yesterday, but couldn't remember how to do it
I take Annies point and agree that it would be useful to post an explanation that a split has been instigated and where the new thread can be found |
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| guy |
Apologies for not explaining - did the split when I should have been doing something else :-) | ||||
| doganjo |
get back to work then! You BAD boy! oops forgot, I'm supposed to be clearing my study! Bye folks, see you all soon
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