| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
new bloodlinesWe are hoping that in a few months there will be additional lines here. 2 more Keranlouan- but yet other dogs present such as Prince du Hameau de la Baronniere, Junior de Coat an Duc, de Stang ar Foll, but also de St Tudec which though includes the famous Indy also brings Lurky and du Sulon too.Those dogs are chosen from breeders who work their stock ...but also strive for correct conformation. Both Andy and I look forward to see how the youngsters will develop  nothing wrong with their ability in the field at their tender age!
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| doganjo |
That's fine but there' s no line breeding involved - these will be outcrosses to most of our UK stock so you won't be able to set type. I'm sure they will definitely bring a lot to our lines but it will take time to settle type. Already there are only a few people line breeding in the UK. | ||
| Wyngold |
Hmmmm....seems to be a fair amt. of linebreeding to what you already have in the UK...
Hameau de Baronere goes back to St. Tugen, Indy back to Ska/St. tugen, etc. I find that most french lines are not very far outcrossed they all go back to the same old champions just recombined differently. |
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| Patricia |
You are right Goldie...Indeed may top french dogs have those combinations.
But I don't know how many have Lurky in their pedigrees or a some I have listed in the UK. Please point them out Jan or Anne? Regarding the St Tudec I have done it for myself as I like the dog I have used. Anne, there are many possibilities to line breed with what we are bringing in. The tailless one being for myself as, as you well know I don't want tails in my kennels. 
Goldie, finding outcrosses is not proving quite so simple and either I don't like the look of them or their working books is not brilliant...and I would need a lot of time touring to see them in the flesh. One I like was Varn de Cornouaille and also appreciated his breeders' honesty. Tour de France here we come 
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| doganjo |
I didn't meant that the new imports aren't line bred. I daresay they are. But there aren't many dogs line bred in the UK so they will be outcrosses to the new French ones - unless you go back a good few generations. By line breeding I mean three or four generations. A lot of UK dogs have lines back to the top French Kennels but they are quite distant, and although one dog may have four lines to four different top kennels - that doesn't make it line bred. | ||
| Patricia |
And I thought the KC wanted to encourage a good gene pool?
Surely having a little more new blood is a good thing? Anyway,neither Andy or I went to buy, more to look at the new stock of young dogs and visit Patrick- whom I really like- We went to mate my bitch and whilst in Brittany did a small tour of 2 kennels. Not enough time to do more and 1600 miles later! We happened to see a little Black male who reminded me of Lorca a bit. He was my special dog and the best male I had, so who can blame me for wanting another like him 
Line breeding: I will only line breed to something outstanding and whose background I know well without any hidden agendas! |
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| doganjo |
I think we are now onto a discussion on the arguments for and against line breeding.
I was always taught that one line breeds A) to establish type; B) to consolidate the good points in a line and C) to eliminate bad points in a line (whether for health or conformation reasons) I was also taught by my Cocker mentors to line breed inwards for three generations then outwards (outcross) for one, then back in again, always taking account of good and bad attributes. If one needs to take in new bloodlines into an established line then these are the outcrosses, but one has to be aware that the outcross itself may be heavily line bred. So when using an outcross it's lines must also be compared to the established line bred pedigree of the dog concerned. If one doesn't have an established line then an outcross to a heavily linebred dog that is distantly related to a dog or bitch could help establish a firm line. In my opinion, because a number of UK Brittanys are not at all line bred, (that is, the Sire and Dam have been mated solely because they are good specimens rather than also bred along the same lines) in breeding them to French dogs that are perhaps line bred down one avenue which bears no relationship to ours, we can either have total outcrossing producing completely different types all in the same litter, OR, (if it is done with thought and care), we could establish a good consistent type. So, to take Lurky for instance, assuming he is not related to any UK Brittanys(I don't know if he is or not - give me the names of some of his progeny and I'll check), any progeny from him would be a total outcross to any UK Brittanys and could (not would, but could) produce random types. I know what I mean but I suspect what I have just typed looks as clear as sludge 
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| Wyngold |
Well many Lines have Varim des Sources Claires...hence "Lurky" and others that contain Varim are in essence Linebred....and Yes, they are not outcrosses to what you have just little tweaks here in there and hoping you get some new combined genes to work with.
The only way I have fond pedigrees that were not related was to look at many litters advertised in the Hunting magazines by hunters. Definately much more diversity if one was looking for such!!! I am not for "too" much diversity, but I think the French lines are not as diverse as one wants us to think. The genetic research article done by the French university alludes to this fact. I think that those who have crossbred both in the USA and france to the assorted pointers and setters have probably helped the breed in the long run. Although I would certianly do without some of the Boxer/Hound blood that was infused... As for Line vs. Out crossing....Both have their virtues. Those who breed show dogs tend to feel that Line is better than Out. Those who breed for performance often seek Out because they wish to minimize defects by hiding them and focus on trait selections. So both work....Personally I do line breed...but "IF" I could find a line that was prepotent for traits that was a product of at least 3 enerations of assorted matings I would jump at it as that would be a line of dogs that produce traits firmly and with a pedigree that could be used anywhere...JMHO |
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| doganjo |
I agree with a lot of that, Goldie, but as for jumpimg at this - .
Most UK Brittany stem from French lines - but there were four different lines brought in in the early stages - Pigenettes, Goas Villinic, St Tugen, and Sous les Viviers. There was some common ground between those but putting these together was not what I'd call line breeding. So we had a mixed up bunch to begin with, and more has been added to the mix in the 27 years since then. Some breeders went back to one or two of those originals - St Tugen springs to mind - and line bred to Ska from there, but the majority are still fairly mixed pedigrees. |
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| Patricia |
Line breeding: yes, but you have to know a fair way back and know the individual dogs, no? Thoughts?
I am bringing dogs which " types" I like. ie Keranlouan- De Sous Les Viviers for exemple. I have Lurky right behind Chriss de Sous les Viviers and should have more later on. My bitch Clochette( I don't show, she is in the French magazine) does have Du Calestray and other dogs I don't know. On the other side, Luron de Kerveillant( which I have seen) son of Ebert- which I have line bred to- It is difficult not to have Varim or Crak in pedigrees. as well as Indy. I guess many of the top dogs have these "big"names. If I want to know something about a dog, I try to call its breeder, that helps too. For me, I try to also complement on my bitches' s weaknesses on the working side as it is important to me. ie, I used Du Bois Saussin which gives me strong pointing and biddable temperament each time. So, I don't always worry about line breeding if they also complement each other: not just in conformation. Some dogs seen at the Nationale, where the biggest number of Bretons is present, have the " whoa" factor. It is a matter of taste, we don't always like the same " types". I recall having a discussion with my friend who fell for Lurky( des Sources Claires) whilst I preferred Juan du Sulon. I did not use him as he was" C" hips. But Lambic du Sulon was to die for imo and I went along to his son as the poor dog got ran over by a tractor. I go back to keranlouan having seen the head types I really like with a strong working stamp. I don't set out to just look out to line breed unless it is that" special dog" and he is perfect 
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| doganjo |
If you don't line breed you will get a variety of types, but I suppose in a litter with a few types you can then choose the one you want. | ||
| Liz |
That is so true. I remember years ago someone newish to Weimaraners saying proudly that their dog went back to a certain champion on both sides. We shuddered, knowing what an absolute b****r that dog was when he was alive. Our memories went far enough back, but they were only going on pedigrees and photos. |
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| doganjo |
That's the advantage of a new breed - 27 years is not long for memories to go back.
I remember Puk was a lovely gentleman of a dog, loved crawling through the heather when counting the grouse with Tommy Addison when he was up at Dunalastair for training, Rolline was a bit of a wee vixen at times, Ted was a gentle soul too but very clever, and Rolline just wanted to hunt - all day every day. But no bad temperaments. |
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| Patricia |
I am lucky to chat to Georges Riva from time to time- as he teaches me so much- and the stories he tells me of his dogs, how big they were, how they hunted etc...Of course, Mieur Riva owned Crak and Varim (-des Sources Claires), I also have photos of Fench( which is Athos's grandfather but also grand sire to one of the latest Chs Uman du Bois Courcol belonging to Dominique Pozo.)
If I am after info, I simply ring and ask 
I find De Sous les Viviers breed back to Varim, The St Lubin go back a lot to Poker des Pigenettes, The Hameau de Sorny to Ska, the Keranlouan now line breed to Ebert and so it goes. You have a dog which is outstanding, and the pedigrees will have it often repeated. Interestingly most " great dogs" will contain those particular animals. I am now thinking Indy de St Lubin too. I really love pedigrees, but it is a bonus to know the dogs behind... |
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| doganjo |
Patricia, when you look at a pedigree, how many generations do you look at to see if there are common ancestors on both sides?
For anyone unsure about what line breeding and outcrossing is, this is a very well written and interesting article http://www.geocities.com/learntobreed/linebreeding.html |
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| Lin Dyke |
Thanks for that Annie, very interesting. | ||
| Patricia |
I personally did not go along with some of the statements. sorry... 
There is also a lot to be said for outcrossing. |
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| doganjo |
Yes, there is .......... if you know all that is behind the outcross, and the outcross itself is line bred; or you are bringing in the outcross to a line bred line. Then you will set type. Of course, you could set faults too, so line breeding should only be done with knowledge.
Which statements would you not go along with? Here is another article which is also very informative http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm |
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| Lin Dyke |
Too tired to read this tonight. | ||
| doganjo |
Yup, it is a long one, sorry. I had read it before, and suddenly remembered about it. Have just finished my report so must email it to Paul before bed.. | ||
| Lin Dyke |
goodnight Annie X | ||
| doganjo |
Jings, that's as quick as Facebook! | ||
| gundoglover |
Thankyou for posting the line-breeding links. They are both useful as introductions, but it is important to understand where line-breeding or out-crossing is most useful. The GSP article refers to the successful line-breeding of dairy cows, and also the hybrid vigour of the F1 out=cross & loss of this advantage if the F1's are bred together.
The missing piece of the explanation is the heritability and heterosis of the traits in question. Traits with high heritability (like milk production) respond well to selection and line-breeding, while traits with low heritability but high heterosis (like weaning weight of calves) respond well to out-crossing. As heritability goes up, heterosis goes down and vice versa. Dairy farmers have known this for years because their livelihoods depend on the knowledge. Hence, they want highly inbred dairy cows for milkers crossed to a beef bull to get the beef genes plus the extra weaning weights due to heterosis. Heterosis means that the weaning weights are around 5% greater than the average of the weaning weights of the purebred dairy & purebred beef calves. A 5% higher weight for no extra feed is an important economic incentive for the farmer to out-cross for this trait. Of course, the farmer will want the best dairy bull that produces line-breeding advantages to put over his best dairy cows to get his replacement milkers. Now, what does this mean for dog breeders? Well, first we need to know the heritability of the traits we are seeking to influence, then we will be better able to decide if line-breeding or out-crossing is the way to go. It gets tricky when we try to juggle several traits at once, but the point is that line-breeding and out-crossing are important tools in the hands of the breeder and saying that we should only use one or the other is starting with a big handicap. |
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| Wyngold |
Thank You, Thank You.....
I know you got the gist of genetics! If folks do not know which traits they are seeking are dominant or recessive traits the choice to line breed or outcross are worthless tools.... Color is the simplest genes to understand and even with that most do not "get it". |
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| doganjo |
Yes, I agree with all of that. I would think some of the traits we should be looking for are those which make the Brittany or Epagneul Breton what it is - namely cobbiness (rounded ribcage with short loin). head proportions, earset, working ability. There are more but that's a start. I have always line bred for those (admittedly I don't breed a great deal) and seem to get pretty typy dogs. Only a few are shown though, most are worked.(not trialled) | ||
| gundoglover |
These are the traits that I am interested in selecting for, too. Is there any information about the heritability or mode of inheritance of any of these in the Brittany? |
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| doganjo |
Goldie can answer this one - she's the expert on genetics, I just look at the dogs and pedigrees. | ||
| Wyngold |
If you are interested in which physical traits are dominant over others I would suggest reading the old book of Leon F Whitney it contains many of the early days breeding experiments evaluating traits such as long legs, longer ears, heads, etc.
In breeding Brittanys for the past 35+ years I have found that the hardest traits to "maintain" are small ears, wide back skulls, excellent shoulder angulations. Once you loose correct heads..ie get longer muzzles or down in the face attributes it will take at least 2 generations to correct for "stability" and get prepotency back. So heads and shoulders are my biggest focus to "keep" the rest can be "fixed" in one generation if needed for the most part. This is working with AB lines. In French lines I find it hard to keep correct front legs...these lines tend to be elboed more and have a greater tendency to "Bandied legs" excessive bowed rears which result in higher tendency for patellar problems. Certain lines seem to have a higher incidence of Umbilical hernias, some lines have a tendency towards dog to dog agression, and the ones with the really wide backskulls also have a greater tendency to undershot jaws. Migh be the so called "boxer" influence that joncour speaks of LOL |
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| doganjo |
I think you may be right - I've seen a lot of 'elbow out' dogs over my judging career since 1992. Cowed hocks is another bad trait I've seen a lot of, as well as loose hocks - some of them look like they are knitting jumpers lol |
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| Patricia |
Goldie, you have a point  During my recent visits, I have found a good number of dogs with narrow forechests and quite upright in shoulder. It gives an odd stance. Going round some kennels- also small ones- you find a vast amount of dogs lacking deep chest and width between front legs. I guess they work well so are bred from .
As heads are important to me, I have found many narrowish skulls, longer muzzles which don't do anything for me. Front face lacking too. Longish ears not always well placed...Where has the chiselling gone? and that very alert expression? I have seen some very pleasing and soft heads at Patrick's, not all obviously but a good few very good ones.
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| doganjo |
Yes, I did too - as you say, not all of them, but certainly a good number. |
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| gundoglover |
Thanks, Goldie, I did have the Whitney book but loaned it years ago and, well, you can guess the story. So, I better get another copy, now I have a new breed. Thankyou for the clues on the hard-to-regain characteristics. | ||
| Patricia |
This is Edam de Keranlouan. Tailless male, 5 months
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size image |
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| doganjo |
When will you get him Patricia? Look forward to seeing him. | ||
| barbara |
He is gorgeous Patricia
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| Lin Dyke |
Very handsome chap 
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| Patricia |
To follow, picture of Etincelle de K, who will be brought in by Andy & Sue. Choice of pups is impressive, adults too Now, the wait At least we know these pups will be taken out, Edam is now starting to swim too.
If only Patrick had thought about this docking issue a bit earlier, it would have helped!!! But Thanks to Barbara who mentionned she thought he had 3 such dogs. I hope he will be as good as the Italian!!! 
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| Jayne Cutler |
Beautiful puppy looks very similar to Lorca is he related? Look forward to seeing him.
Jayne |
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| Patricia |
Jayne, Edam does go back to Ebert but also includes other lines such as du Bois des Ecrivains, as well as going back to SKA via Prince du hameau de la Baronniere. Edam's father is a tricolour( and a nice one with excellent conformation). Mum-which Barbara must have seen- is a tailless bitch bought from one of Patrick's friends. She herself, had 3 tailless bitches too. She is a daughter of Soisic, herself a daughter of Loulou, Lorca's brother!! Loulou is Ivry's son of course.
Must admit that having had dogs like Lorca is difficult to measure up to. Nothing comes quite to their level-as yet-for me... Hence I have decided to go back to what has worked best for me... The socialising of imports brought up in kennels has been a huge learning curve and I cannot emphasise enough the importance of those first few weeks. It is very hard I find for some to behave as a pet as well as a working dog. Though still loving. One or two have lacked the whole experience of knowing how to behave as a puppy, even to the extent of playing. It can take to over a year sometimes
This simply does not happen with Patrick's dogs. Hence my lack of caution with other lines 
I could write a book about my imports!!! |
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| Liz |
Looking forward to seeing the new boy
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