| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| doganjo |
New Parliament Group to discuss dog breedsHas anyone seen this?I'm told that any submissions made should be retained along with any read receipts or acknowledgements to avoid loss or alteration of electronic communications. Perhaps our own breed is not affected but others are obviously under threat as is our freedom of choice. Annie 
Click to download file |
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| guy |
Don't give very long.
I hope we submit something otherwise I can see a repeat of taildocking and hunting legislation being introduced. |
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| doganjo |
By we do you mean the Brittany Club?
I just spotted it when trawling another site so I don't know if it has gone out to Clubs, but I'll email it to Paul too in case he hasn't seen it yet. |
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| johnhod |
http://www.publications.parliamen...m/cmallparty/register/memi154.htm
If you follow the link at the top of the page it shows that the group is supported and facilitated by the RSPCA so it's obviously totally impartial in it's views on animal welfare  .
One thing that raises a concern with me is the fact that the document posted by Annie suggests contacting a mobile number for further info but the person whose number it is isn't a member of the group. |
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| guy |
I think we must be very vigilant on this one. I can see only a small leap of imagination to say that a bob tail EB is because of a genetic fault and therefore 'unhealthy' | ||
| sallie |
I am no longer a member, and I am not a breeder, so my point of view isn't really relevant, but .....
isn't it true that the bob tail IS a gene defect and aren't all defects 'unhealthy' (or is my biology 'o' level incorrect) ... or are you going along the line of evolution  
How would you pan out your argument to Law Lords, MPs etc.? You need in-depth evidence to back up your arugument that there are no health issues with the bob tail. Have there been any comparisons? These people are not into 'hearsay' but facts. Your response has to be well thought through and with a coherent argument agreed by not only breeders but also individuals throughout the 'show' and 'trial' fraternity, BCGB and more importantly YOU NEED professional/medical evidence on your side. Good Luck - and remember to work as a team 
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| doganjo |
That is the problem though. Because our breed has been docked for so long bobtails had little extra intrinsic value except for no fee being required to dock them. So no records have been kept as to any health issues. In addition opinion varies from breeder to breeder as regards the results of mating bobtail to bobtail and bobtail to non-bobtail. One breeder has been known to say it causes spina bifida when Dr Bruce Cattanach said in his lecture that in fact the incidence of SB has been found in long tailed dogs. So all in all we have no proof or statistics as yet as to whether bobtails have any health issues. So we cannot fight any onslaught on our breed. | ||
| guy |
surely as long as we have numbers and documented evidence of health or otherwise then the fact this has not been historically analysed around taillessness does not matter. Once we have collected some current data about numbers born naturally tailless and how they are health wise some sensible extrapolations can be made. | ||
| johnhod |
That should certainly be the case but I think you are confusing sense and politics | ||
| doganjo |
OK, I'll start the ball rolling. I mated a bobtail dog to a bobtail bitch, 3 pups born (mated late in season), 2 dogs bobtail, 1 bitch long tail, no health issues at delivery or during first 8 weeks, no issues reported so far at 5 months.
But that is one litter - I compiled a list of litters containing bobtails some time ago, but wasn't given details of any health issues. |
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| sallie |
Sorry to be playing Devils Advocate ... but ... here is the stance they will probably take:
Because the Bob-tail is a throw back from a faulty gene, it will not be recognised. The Epagneul Breton will however be recognised as a breed, as long as it has a full tail (or legally docked tail)... the implications mean that Bob-tails will not carry papers and therefore should not be bred from... the idea carried forward by 'council' would be to breed back out the faulty gene. They would also look disparagingly at breeding bob with bob ... as this could be interpretted as the genetic engineering of the breed. 'Council' will also take the view that - Though there are no recorded incidences of health problems this is not to say that there are none - just that they have not been recorded. ...Sorry, but i have spent many years studying politics, law and the cjs to know how they think and work... thats why i come across as negative to your cause... i'm not as i have a Bob-tail with no papers... welcome to my world ... no showing, no competing, and no recognition from the BCGB
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| doganjo |
Don't think that's true, Sallie. there are a number of members who were given free first year's membership when they took on a rescue dog and they don't have papers either. Did someone refuse your application to join the Brittany Club? Was it properly propopsed and seconded? Secondly as far as I am aware the French have never considered the bobtail to be a faulty gene. In fact I believe the very first specimens of our breed were short or bob tailed and the others were docked to match. Can you quote your source please? However, that said I can see where you're coming from and I think you may be right that the 'do-gooders' will try to 'protect' our breed from nasty people such as myself that prefer the bobtail to the long-tail. Goodness - they may even stop me judging in case I put a bobtail first 
Annie |
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| sallie |
Thanks to Guy i was able to join the BCGB - but what has it done for my dog?????? Nothing!!!! ... in all honesty i would rather the money had gone to the brittany rescue centre.
A bit flabberghasted with your answer Anne... You are a wonderful person who has supported me with the trauma of owning Monet... my questions were not damning you as you care for your dogs... It was to play devils advocate - to make you work as a team - to make you realise that dogs are naturally born with tails, not to be born with one goes against the grain... genetic default! I tried to highlight to you all the way that MPs, Law Lords, and Welfare Charities will look into your case... i'm sorry but the answer i got was well.... the sort of remark that would hold back your case... Sorry Anne, i hope that this will not stop us keeping in-touch. Your arguments need to be well thought through, evidence needs to be professionally represented with facts and figures. I do love Monet to bits ... though i am yet to be convinced that being naturally bob-tailed is a benefit, or attractive and with Monet of yet there are no health issues concerning his back or balance. keep a clear head and keep focussed - its a serious and a much needed debatable issue |
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| doganjo |
I suppose many members of any club might say the same. At first glance, it hasn't done any of my dogs any good either. But I have learned a lot from fellow members over the last 22 years and I enjoy the company at the various events we have. I don't always take my dogs to the shows but I have learned a lot by taking Allez to a couple of the the training days. And I do enjoy the newsletter. £10 is quite a lot of money, perhaps we could do more for members - all suggestions to improve are always welcome. As usual, my facetious sense of humour has come out all wrong in the written word. I know exactly what you meant about politics and how they can manipulate everything. But it is definitely supposed to be the case that the very first Epagneul Breton was a bobtail, and it is accepted in France. You may be right about our breed not being allowed to be bred for bobtails but I hope that is a long way off. Especially since the Kennel Club now allows bobtailed pups to be registered as such. Our breed is generally healthy so perhaps raising another issue would be a mistake? What do others think? |
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| sallie |
...lol - bit tetchy this evening, first time that i haven't been able to go out to celebrate... sorry for picking a fight... something that i am not good at (apologising and fighting). I know my excuse for not celebrating... but whats yours? Happy New Year Anne - love from me and Monet | ||
| Victoria |
well, Sallie, Chris (Britmania) and I tried to have this subject thrashed out some time ago but it all turned to custard. I do not know why this matter seems to bring so much emotive negativism out...it is so important yet...well, the rest they say is history...I have said all I intend to write about this subject for the time being...but as Breton owners and breeders we should be able to debate this matter at 3000decibels without getting silly about it...IT EFFECTS US ALL!!!! Glad to see you back!!
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| johnhod |
I like that Sallie. It seems to imply that views of the BCGB are intended to offend That may be the intention of some members but not all of us.
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| Patricia |
Happy New Year to you all whether you went Partying or not...  We did not as I had an influx of people, family over etc...and I am tired of cooking!
The BCGB is often there for its members in its defence. Sally, try to talk to one or two of them, you may be suprised Like Anne, I have been in situations where I have needed that help and Margaret for one was always there for me and I know for others too. None of us agree all of the time. But we work for the breed.
For one, I think animal laws are ill thought out and do not have my respect. Look at the DDA, the hunting ban etc... I am positive those " do gooders "will not stop until they ban dog showing, make our life hell in the breeding of dogs etc...Once they have achieved all of that, they'll move on to something else as they have nothing to fill their sad lives. Bob tails: So many Brittanys are tailless in France and abroad. A lovely Swiss lady Anka, breeds quality dogs with that gene in mind. I can send a link if needed. One of the officers of the French club also breeds several tailless or short docks. That may be where people cringe. We simply need to keep a database. Problems should be reported. I will report back again when I breed from my bob tail later... If all of this comes as offensive, it is not, it is only our tone which is passionate
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| doganjo |
A cold/flu - but fed it half a bottle of wine at midnight and it's beginning to fade away. And here's me, the one that said she'd never drink alone in case of becoming an alcoholic like my grandfather. Glug glug!
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| sallie |
Hi Victoria... didn't realise that this had been debated before and was only replying to the recent post  if nothing has been done since last debated an old saying by my Grand-dad comes to mind 'apathy and complacency bring forth contempt' ... lets hope that this is not the case here.
John ... my signature has been there for 6 months... have you only just noticed? Plus i have now amended it so that it doesn't offend any particular party ... mind you it might now offend everyone
Hope all goes well in the campaign and stay focussed. On a last note - Monet will be my only Brittany - they are a lovely loyal devoted dog with a passion to hunt and please, aren't these traits more important than any argument about bob tails? |
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| johnhod |
I have to admit that it never lodged in my underused brain before. Maybe I was too interested in the content of the post to notice the signature before.
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| Victoria |
Please look under Section Conformation for topics on the debate of tails. Yes, Sallie, in my view these traits are vital to the breed, but so too is the tailless factor as it is going (in countries where docking is banned) to see (and is already happening) breeding of bobs to bobs with the WELL DOCUMENTED AND SCIENTIFICALLY SUBSTANTIATED consequences...not much use having one of the most prey urgent of breeds if THE WHOLE PICTURE OF THE BREED IS NOT SEEN by breeders...as breeders we are not breeding for now, but for the future generations...of the Breton, not humans 
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| doganjo |
I haven't seen any papers on the matter - can you give me your source please, if you can, I'd like to see others results as well as some I received from France |
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| Victoria |
[quote="Victoria"]
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| doganjo |
This is what you wrote but I can't find anything else. In the list of litters Pierre sent me only one is shown as having any problems - I've attached it here. Did he tell you of other problems, because he didn't give me any. If you have done more research and have new information it would be extremely useful for us all. The supposed re-absorption does not actually occur according to Dr Cattanach. It is rather a matter of non-implantation, which would not affect the bitch to any extent. Click to download file 
Click to download file |
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| guy |
Anne - do you have any explanation for your file?
Ano? QL golden retrievers and how the repeat matings column works? |
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| doganjo |
In the repeat mating column he gives the number of the litter followed by an equals sign for the number of the previous litter, and again for others prior to that.
Ano (annouri? I think) = born natural short, QL = Queue Longue. Patricia can maybe help with the translation. Pierre has goldies too, or had, not sure if he still has. Obvioulsy no bobs there But he listed all the litters he has had over the years (this list goes up to around 18 months ago I think)
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| Patricia |
Ano is Anoure...Bob tail.
Yes, QL is long tail. I don't think Pierre has Goldens now? I know Annie wanted and has a Cavalier 
I fully intend to let Anne have my data when I breed short tails.( if she does) My imported bitch has a stump and will be mated a to a tailed dog. the mating will be done for the usual working and conformation qualities. It is true I don't want tails myself.  
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| doganjo |
Thanks, Patricia, and YES please!!! More information we have on this breed trait the better. |
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