| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
Pointer versas Brittany??My daughter has decided to go out with a Falconer
Tonight the discussion was lively on whether one should be " proper" and work an English Pointer rather than an HPR. The GSP in his case, being called a " disapointer"  
This is actually quite a soft dog -with a tail- God forbids working anything else than an Irish Red and White or a Pointer in conjunction with a Peregrine Flacon. I called him a snob  ...Now, maybe Des could enlighten me to what is superior about the Pointer and why can't a Brittany do the job as well????????????Sorry if I show my ignorance. My daughter is now hiding in embarrassment 
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| doganjo |
Des raised teh question of running a POinter that ertrieves in an HPR trial becasue he knew of HPR owners who rejected the idea of an HPR becoming an FT CH by winning in POinter and Setter trials - no retrieveing or water work is done.
I quoted the KC regs below: J regs for Pointers & Setters 8. Credit points Systematically quartering with stamina pace and style. Hunting with drive and purpose. Style on point and production. Natural backing. Dropping to wing. Quiet handling. and for HPRs 5. Credit Points Systematically quartering with stamina pace and style. Hunting with drive and purpose. Good marking. Style on point and production. Quiet handling. Dropping to wing. Good water work. Speed and efficiency in retrieving. The main differences I can see are that HPRs are run singly as opposed to pairs in setters and pointers, HPRs are required to retrieve and also to do so in water. Setters and pointers are not required to do this. So the standards are very different. There are a number of breeds that can be trained or sometimes show natural traits to do similar jobs to our HPRs but they are classed differently by our KC and that is what we should abide by. IMHO |
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| Patricia |
Not what I meant Why is a Pointer better to work with a Peregrine considering we are in East Anglia and not the moors of Scotland?
Why cannot a Brittany do the job too??? Hope to hear from Falconers?... Bird being " served" being paramount...I look forward to seeing the GSP with the hawk next! |
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| doganjo |
Ah, I see, sorry. It's mostly GSPs that are used by falconers up here in Scotland. I know one using a pointer but he has a Brittany too. Moors are pretty heavy going for our guys rittle regs lol | ||
| Des O'Neile |
Certain dogs are/were bred specifically to do certain jobs. This does not mean that other dogs connot do this type of work to an acceptable standard but the specialist is bound to have an advantage if the work is very specalised. To my mind the pointer was developed to be a gundog but somewhere along the line it was found to be very efficent at working with falcons/hawks. In the mind of many falconers the pinnacle of their sport is to fly a peregrine at grouse over a pointer. Anything else is therefore thought to be less than the ideal.
The unfortunate thing about human nature is that people tend to make decisions about all members of a particular breed based on their experience of one member of that breed. For years the less commom continental breeds were mainly in the hands of "fanciers" and sometimes fanatics might be nearer the truth. I could therefore fully understand if a falconer who had had a bad day with a Brit. thought they were poor and obviously somebody who'd had a bad day with a pointer would quite possibly think they were crap. All the time of course it would be more to do with the handler than the dog. I would feel that everything else being equal a good pointer would have an easier time of it on a moor than a good Brittany mainly because of the size. If the falconer wasn't just poking fun then I would reserve judgment of somebody denegrating a particular dog.....without first seeing it in action! |
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| Patricia |
I am having great fun with this Falconer!!! Beside the fact I can wind him up very well He cringes when I speak of Lanner Falcons and I remember from the days we had " Falconers training days" the rivalry between " Short Wing" and " Long wing". Goshawks are also frowned upon!!
This Pointer" brigade" fly their birds on lowland ie Suffolk, Cambridgeshire, basically large fields. Even ours are not big enough and French partridge is not good enough compared to the English!! Oh dear...
Now, these Pointers no doubt are brilliant, but how about their handlers?? My point: why can't a Brittany do the job as well as not in Scotland?? Des? Mind you, I am not worried about that one bit 
You find some Brittanys which are not midgets and also cover the ground well and hold point very well too. Long enough for a Peregrine to gain height as I recall with Ray Butler's bitch a few years back. 20mns point and solid. This young man has a GSP, I get the impression he worries about serving his bird more than maybe having the dog on the " button"? As my friend is part of the N&S HPR club and owns - and has trialed 2 GSP's - plus working on a pup- I will see if he wants to go out with him to see how to work well with an HPR. Nothing like education
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| doganjo |
Patricia, do you think Des is in Scotland as you refer to it - he is in Ireland! Mind you perhaps he has worked his dogs on the Scottish moors. My Brittanys sometimes have a difficult job getting in and out of deep rutted heather clumps on the moors - as do I so I just don't tackle the moors any more. Having said that Ceilidh once brought back a dog hare - that was on the Buck, a grouse moor near Craigs Castle(where we ahd a field trial last year). She was pretty exhausted though, and all cut underneath and her feathers torn off down her legs. John took her up there a lot so I never got the chance to show her much. | ||
| Patricia |
No, I did not say Des was in Scotland...I am only saying that some Falconers are using Pointers in East Anglia and why? why is a Brittany not as suitable? Or is it because it is an ego thing?
I would expecxt a Brittany to retrieve hares, we have lots here as we shoot them too along with pheasant and partridge... |
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| doganjo |
I didn't mean that they couldn't retrieve hares - of course they can,. I wasn't sure what you meant but I think you are saying that a Brittany can work fine on flat areas like Anglia whereas a pointer would be fine on our grouse moors. I think you could be right. And that this falconer (and perhaps others) has a big dog and looks down on our little dogs because he has a big ego? Is that right? |
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| Patricia |
This Falconer has not a big ego -he is in fact really nice -but I feel some of the others may look down at a small HPR? What is it so brilliant about a Pointer but not our fabulous Brittany????
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| doganjo |
You must come up and try our mountains sometime. 
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| johnhod |
Dave A works his dogs on the moors (only the English ones as far as I know and obviously they're not as tough as the Scottish ones) and I've worked Moss on moorland as well, fortunatley not for too long as I think you really need at least a brace working in rotation. It is tough going on the older heather and while Moss didn't look as graceful as the pointers that were there he worked his ground, found game and pointed it long enough for the guns to get into position. So if you're looking for something moves elegantly go for a pointer, if you want game in the bag and don't mind being seen at the end of the day with a dog in tow that looks more like a bundle of soaking rags use a Brittany.
A bit of a generalisation I know, but why not  
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| doganjo |
Well put John! | ||
| Dave A |
I saw this on another forum for falconers etc and thought it manswer a question or start a new round ?? Dave A |
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| Dave A |
Should say " may answer a question " must start to read before i hit the submit button | ||
| lockedon67 |
Re: Pointer versas Brittany??
Little is disapointing about a Gsp - one only has to see how many are registered each year to back that point. I love the breed and found them ideal as an all-round hawking dog. I have seen plenty worked with success and admitedly a Gsp may not have the finesse of a pointer whilst on point, I would wager that alot of hpr's seem more trainable and are within the realms of most to bring up to a decent level of obedience in the field. |
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| Victoria |
Patricia, this post is really interesting...I watched a gundog DVD (American) cannot remember by whom nor what falcon was being used; but there was a guy with a French Brittany...they were in openl rough...the Breton was wicked... | ||
| lockedon67 |
That because they are.... Good things come in small packages 
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| Patricia |
If anyone out there who flies a peregrine Falcon?
Do you need to drive round fields with a set of binoculars spotting coveys of- English- partridges? Then let the dog out and set him to hold point? Is this how everybody does it? I don't go on Falconers's forums
Please if you have the answer...The poor GSP was worn out after a run in our fields and spent his night ...snoring
If you can enlighten me
I think some are worried by the speed of a Brittany . To me that is the essence of the breed, cover the ground efficiently in order to find game quickly.
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| doganjo |
Aw, could the poor GSP not keep up? These Frenchies can show anyone a clean pair of heels! 
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| david |
The man i bought my Brit from, Mark Belmonte swore by his bitch and told me that most quarry put up at a certain well known falconry meet was produced by his bitch. I have no evidence of this, but i have no reason to doubt him.He placed this little Brittany well above the Gsp he also had.
Having worked different breeds of dogs for quite a few years, i find it impossible to say one breed is better than another, though there are certain strains within a breed being produced that seem to be superior in certain ways. David |
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| steve |
hi patricia this is an old post so may now not be relevent iam sure the reason people say you must use a pointer is all down to tradition there are many good traditional falconers out there who put many hours into training there hawks ( i have spent many hours setting up delta kites to teach a teircel to gain hieght drove hours to find the right spot for a 10 minute flight) with there dedication comes a price a one sided veiw if you dont fly a peri at grouse your not a true falconer and you must have a pointer to do it if you were to use anything else it is to be frowned upon a defination of a falconer is to train a hawk to hunt in its natural state at suitable quarry wether it be a hybred flying out of the hood at rooks or peri at grouse i have been flying both longwing and shortwing for 23 years and my favourite is gull hawking with my female tri bred she will take slips from half a mile away at gulls sat out in feilds but to a traditionalst thats not true falconry iam not knocking them its great to see a tradition going with passion but they dont all look at the bigger picture
steve |
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| Victoria |
Tell us more, Steve, please! | ||
| steve |
what would you like to know and i will try to help | ||
| Victoria |
To the uninitiated how do you juggle the dog's hunting methods and that of your raptor...
do certain dogs dislike working with your birds? you must be very busy what with a dog at foot and a bird at hand?!! at what age is your peregrine trained and to what age would you work them? it is such a fascinating subject, Steve, and I would love to observe this form of hunting in person. One day! |
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| Waldo |
I also find the whole concept rather intriguing and something I'm sure in this country you would never be allowed to do. Sometimes the only thing I feel we miss out on over here (Australia that is) is that we have no real history/tradition to speak of in comparison to Europe, etc.
Cheers, Waldo |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Bit like the USA Waldo
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| Victoria |
Well you are both right but here in New Zealand we are world famous (sorry, Waldo) cos we get to see the sun before anyone else, everyday!!!!! | ||
| Waldo |
Don't be sorry Victoria, from what little I've see of NZ it looks like paradise. Cheers,
Waldo |
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| guy |
the discussion about training haws has been split off and is now here
http://thebrittanyforum.myfreeforum.org/sutra25084.php#25084 |
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