Pointing

sallie · Pointing

Could someone explain why Brittanys are made to sit when on the point ... is it just to keep a solid position on the point or is it their natural pointing position?

I see the Pointers stand to point as did my Irish Setters, though a friends English Setter used to sit to point.

Monet naturally stands when pointing a bird, with left foot in the air, tail doing its own thing and this is the position i prefer as it is easier for me to move him in/on. However, he sits to point a rabbit/hare.

So if i did field trialing with a Brit would i have to sit or stand to point?

Mugi

I have never heard of a dog sitting on point.

doganjo

Nor me - who told you that?

Lin Dyke

Ditto from me ... Question

Des O'Neile

Bird Dogs, is a term I don't really like but it is fairly accurate when applied to Pointers & setters. The original MO for the setter was that it would indicate game and more than likely two people would come up behind the dog dragging a net supported by two poles. They would drag the net over the dog and then rush forward in an attempt to throw the poles and the net over the covey. Two facilitate this net dragging the dog was trained to lie down on it's belly when pointing, better known as "setting". The Pointer on the other hand was originally used for falconry. It suited this MO better if the dog stood up tall so that both the falconer and probably more importantly the falcon could see the dog. This became known as "pointing".
In the context of you friends English Setter the "sit" is probably a misconstrued "set". There are a lot of setters that actually point most of the time and a lot of pointers that occasionally set but whereas I don't know that much about the detailed operation of HPR's either in the UK or on the continent I have never heard of them setting and never heard of them sitting either when pointing but many people don't or can't teach their dog to drop to the flush and only require it to sit. Sitting after the flush is totally different from sitting when pointing.

guy

April 1 is not for a while. Laughing

Sit to flush yes. Sit to shot yes.

in continental field trials it would be an elimination.

johnhod

Hopefully you're getting confused by the way someone has described it to you Sallie. The point is made and held in the standing position, but on completing the flush the dog is required to sit.

Des O'Neile

Re Sitting to the flush.
As a matter of interest is sitting to the flush sufficient. I know that as regards Pointers & setter the rules have changed, more than once. I have just thrown out a lot of old copies of the J regs but I think the current requirement is to drop. What does it say in the HPR section? Anybody!

guy

I think - without finding my copy that 'steadiness' to flush is sufficient. The 'sit' is aspired to as it is 'proof' the dog hasn't moved. i know of some trainers who have their dog sit to the sound of 'wing beats' rather than the visual stimulus of the bird flying up.

It is a bit of a grey area - but as I understand it - the dog needs to see the fall it is allowed to move to achieve this - for instance a flush from cover at the edge of a wood (working within the wood) the dog would be allowed to move to a position where its view was not obscured by undergrowth.

Victoria

To sit on point here would be an instant disqualification in the trials!!!!

Des O'Neile

Guy,
How does that fit in with the idea of a blind retrieve?

Des.

Des O'Neile

Found it.
Breeds which Hunt, Point and Retrieve.

J(E)

5 Credit Points
Dropping to wing.

6 Eliminating Faults.
Unsteadiness

7 Major Faults
Not stopping to flush down wind.

I have usually found that what is required in competition permeates through to usage in the field so I would have expected the respondants to this post to train for the drop to wing but that doesn't seem to be correct in this case.

And for your interest

Pointers & Setters
J(D)

8 Credit Points
Dropping to wing.

9 Eliminating Faults
Not dropping to flush down wind.

Des O'Neile

I presume it is linked to this thread but would someb0dy explain to me the HPR Major Fault of :-

Not acknowledging game going away.

Patricia

Funnily, in France, they are not keen on the dog sitting, though it is not eliminating. But, once the dog on point, the handler will get up to the dog and will do a " coule" ie " roading in". Dog must be steady to shot and flush. Yet, in the US, it is the handler who flushes and it is a fault for the dog to sit. Rolling Eyes

Wyngold

Yes in the US the dog gets penalized for sitting or droping at flush & shot
which can be infered as insecurity especially if dropping to shot, ie force training methods....
Dogs establish point, handler walks infront of dog, game pops and then shot. Handler returns to dog to release for retrieve.
In the case of a fly over or flush that precludes the dogs need to "mark"
a pivot or step to facilitate the dog seeing the direction of the flush is allowed.
Any dog that points suddenly that may force it to drop, or aquire a position in which it is not fully on its feet will be penalized.
Preferance is for a dog that points with a high head indicating its dominance over the game.

Britmania

In NZ, our pointer & setter trials include all the HPR breeds and they are expected to indicate the gamebirds by either pointing in the classic fashion (with neck outstretched and front paw lifted) or by setting (ie standing rigid with neck outstretched and all four paws on the ground).

The dogs are expected to quarter the ground searching for game, then characteristically slap into a pointing or setting position.
I have never seen a dog of any breed actually "sit" while pointing - in trials or out roughshooting.

Generally, as Des says in his earlier post, sitting after the flush is a totally different thing to sitting whilest actually pointing.

In NZ trials, some handlers take the option of teaching their dog to sit after the bird is released to ensure no chase takes place. One could argue that the competitior should be docked a point for steady to game. It is open to interpretation by the judge.
Here, the handler will be penalised for walking infront of the dog whilest it is on point - this is seen as "taking the point away from the dog"- especially if the shot is about to be fired to test the dog for steady to shot.
A sudden find, where the dog spins into a point is considered acceptable and if the dog is in an awkward position, it is not penalised.

It is mandatory that the dog must not move to either the shot being fired, or the flight of the released bird.

Our ruling on "roading in" is that if, in the judges opinion, the dog and handler are outside of gun range, the dog must be roaded in.The handler must stay beside or behind the dog when it finds and must not move infront of the dog during the workout.
The dog must move freely when commanded into the bird.The handler must not touch the dog at any time during the workup.

Isn't it interesting to have subtle variations of how the point and set are treated worldwide!
Cheers

lagopuslagopus

sallie

johnhod

It could be that your stop whistle and sit whistle are the same (I know mine are) and that, at some point during his training the stop whistle has been blown immediately a flush (on fur) has been made. He could associate this with the expectation that if the rabbit moves he'll be told to sit so he now sits in advance of the flush (hope that makes sense).

Someone with more experience than I'll ever have will probably have a more logical explanation though.

sallie

Thanks John - think you have hit the 'nail on the head'. I won't stop him doing it though, because if he is sitting he is not moving and that means he is safe; if he did field trials however, it would be a problem.

Victoria

Sallie, this is really interesting, I think!!! I have noticed that for each type of prey, mine have a different point...you know they are pointing hare, pheasant or whatever by the subtle differences...we have a moorhen here (the pukeko) and Dionee when on point for them, sort of moves her head from side to side, maybe it is the flicking tail of the bird who knows; maybe the bird goes in and out of focus with their bobbing stance!!!! (I do not hunt these birds but they are included in the game bird list)!!
Was talking to a man the other evening who had recently lost his Brittany bitch who he hunted on duck, pheasant and deer. He said he always knew when she was on to a deer...not the usual point, but she would stand and shiver as if very cold...on no other game would she use this point!!
At a training day, a guy told me that you need your dog to lie down on stop, not sit or stand, because it takes him longer to get up than if sitting or standing, and therefore slows him down!! I laughed at him and said no way would my Breton condescend to lie down on a stop whistle!!!!!