I'd be very grateful for other's experiences on this subject.
And, apologies for the long post but I think the background might be helpful in understanding the problem.
For the first couple of days we had Amy she stayed overnight in our utility room (1.5 x 2.5m) and she cried some of the time. Poop and wee but mainly away from her bed area.
Then for a couple of days because she was sleepin in the main kitchen during the day (2.5 x 5m) - we let her sleep in there at night. Less crying as each day passed, poop and wee a bit random - as during the day.
By Monday we were reviewing our progress (or lack of it) with house training. We had been taking her outside after each sleep, play etc. or taking her there prior to, during or after any incident but whilst Amy's only 9 weeks, the whole effort seems a little lost on her at the moment.
A friend reminded us of crate training and its use in house training. Amy is quite familiar with her crate and was happily sleeping in there mainly with the door open.
So, on Monday night she climbed into her cage and we went to bed. She cried very little and did one wee.
On Tuesday I needed to go out twice for 30 minutes - once in the morning, once in the afternoon. I crated her each time (picked a time when she seemed quiet, bribed her into the crate with a small treat).
Previously when we've left for short periods during day - from 5 minutes to 1 hour there's been a couple of random poops and wees but nothing 'nasty'.
This time when I returned after my morning errand she had decorated the crate, its contents, herself and a small zone around with poop. I would describe it as 'semi-solid'.
In the afternoon, with everything and everyone smelling clean and fresh I went out again for 30 minutes and when I came back all was well this time.
Then, last night (well this night - it's 4.30am and we've been up since 3.30 cleaning and bathing) we came down to a pretty comprehensive 'poop fest'.
Amy's now sleeping after experiencing her first full bath and we're left thinking what to do next.
She's has had a couple of looser poops over the last couple of days; but is she pooping because she's been unwell or is she pooping because she's anxious?
Either way I'd be grateful for any advice on what to do. She's had a problem twice out of four occasions now and I feel a bit like we're caught up in a 'Schrödinger's cat' experiment.
guy
I think you might have more than one problem here.
One is the pup has not really got into a toilet routine and you have not learned what her periodicy for needing the toilet is - if she indeed has one. Perhaps you need to take a step backwards over toilet training. Cover the floor with newspaper so anywhere is OK then progressively reduce the area of paper available for use, perhaps even having a paper area outside. dogs tend to go in the same place so if the ground smells soiled they will soil it again. Before performing they will smell the area, so a trick here is to put something that discourages them from smelling that spot - pepper used to be a favourite.
When I first had Catja we went through a period where she would deposit during the night something that resolved itself when we changed her feed (done for a different reason)
The second problem is the projectile pooping. Dogs are inherently clean, hence the thinking behind crate to house train, they won't poop in their own bed.
I wonder about the food. Have you changed her diet recently? If not i wonder if she has developed an intolerance to something - gluten is a common one. If I let Ellie have the equivalent of a slice of bread I am rewarded with a 'scattergun' effect. I would be inclined to try a hypo-allergenic feed - salmon and rice or similar, even a 24 feed free period to start - just to let everything settle down. If it persists then a trip to the vet to check further. In fact you may wish to discuss this with your vet before you do anything, they are the qualified ones.
If this is happening when you briefly leave the house could you set up either a mirror so you can 'leave' but still see the dog or arrange a video camera so you can observe teh behaviour of the dog prior to the accident.
JayPatrol
Hi Guy
Many thanks for that - very useful.
I think we made a really basic mistake with the papers thing. I've never liked newspapers on their own because of the soak through, so we had bought puppy pads - and even gone as far as buying a Ugodog (which is a plastic tray with a removal top for your dog to go on (with or without a puppy pad).
However, we soon found Amy grabbed hold of the pads as soon as they were down and didn't much like standing on the Ugodog.
So, we pretty much resorted to encouraging her to go outside only (by trying to study her behaviour and anticipate her need) and we've been clearing any accidents with a special stain/odour remover - which may actually have been counter productive because it's no helped her to identify any likely repeat spots to visit.
Down to the newsagent though I think now is the best way forward.
We have changed Amy diet. The breeder fed the pups on a variety of food "to make it easier for you to change her diet on to the one you want" and gave us a supply of complete, powdered milk, wet food, biscuits etc.
Trouble was, with a brief like that we weren't really sure what do give her.
So, we had previously bought some Eukanuba Puppy and started her on that. She ate that on it's own for a few days but without any real enthusiasm and she wasn't eating the weight recommended on the bag for her age and weight (only about 60%).
So we started giving her some of the breeders powdered milk with her 1st meal of the day and some wet food mixed in with the dry at some of her other meals. That was a couple of days ago and in the same time frames as "the troubles" so I think it's probably back to the Eukanuba.
She's being weighed properly again in 2 weeks at the vets so if there are any issues with her becoming underweight we can tackle that then.
I'll keep all of your advice in mind though.
Apologies again for the long post - I'm normally able to be quite succinct.
Patricia
Guy brings up many interesting points:
Firstly: a young puppy cannot control its bladder and needs to go after he/she wakes up and after meals: If night time was a problem I would bring forward the last meal a little bit.
Secondly, I don't think puppies need milk apart from the maternal milk. They can go on solids as long as it is an EXCELLENT brand. Be aware of hypallergenic diets which are not all what they say on the packet!( My daughter who works for Purina showed me some good exemples!! )
Go for a quality diet, ie Proplan or similar -salmon & rice- You will see a puppy who goes to the loo half the amount and is more solid.
Also: get a good supply of newspapers and at least the accidents are in one place. I am not keen on those puppy pads when the Daily telegraph will be far superior! After all this, it is a matter of time for the muscles to control toilet timing
JayPatrol
Many thanks for that Patricia.
Would you (or your daughter) describe Eukanuba as an excellent brand? We keen to get the best we can but it is difficult to choose between them.
I know a puppy's transit is relatively quick - would you expect her to have emptied her bowels within, say 4 hours?
Pippa's Pack
I think we need to remember that, just like babies and small children, some puppies may not be able to last through the night at first. With our youngest, she slept in a soft travel cage in our bedroom with a favorite blanket and a soft toy. She would settle soon after 'lights out'. Sometimes she would wimper around 03.00 or 04.00 am. I would lift her out, take her down into the garden and let her do whatever she needed to do. Then back into the cage. Again she would soon settle. It was not long before she was going through to 05.00 or even 06.00 am. We never had a wee or a poo in the cage.
We now have the other end of the scale, with a couple of oldies who sometimes need to get up in the night, but they always tell me. I know how it feels, I have the same trouble myself!
doganjo
Lots of good advice here, Jay. I seem to remember saying some of it myself when you first contacted me. Agree with Patricia and with Gay. Don't think there's a need for the vet yet though. She doesn't need milk now and as for giving them lots of different things before they go to their new homes that is rubbish and just upsets a young stomach. My bitches are fed on a good quality puppy food in the last couple of weeks before whelping and the pups are weaned onto that food. They stay on that and are given a sample home with them - enough for a few days with instructions to change over to whatever the owner wants to gradually over a period of at least a week.
Don't forget, you have my phone number if you want to chat about any problems.
Annie
Mugi
When Chase was little he slept in a teeny crate so he had no room to 'go' without it being in his bed. For the first few days I had him in my bedroom in the crate and as soon as I heard him stir I would pop him out onto paper (he didn't go out for the simple reason I had 3 older dogs who I didn't want to disturb) and I made note of the times he was up. I then started setting my alarm so I was awake in time (usually around 3am after his final 10pm feed) and after a few weeks he was extended by half an hour before I would get up until by around 14 weeks he was sleeping from say 11pm to 6am with no accidents. He went downstairs in his crate around 9 weeks old but I still was getting up to pop him on paper.
If she is hosing I would consider she has a tummy upset. Chase was fed ProPlan for his first and last meals of the day, a meat meal (raw) be it mince or chicken wings for another and his fourth meal when he was teeny was weetabix or rice pud made with goats milk. The first meal to be dropped was the weetabix/rice pud and he went to mince for one, chick wings for another and ProPlan always being his night meal.
Personally I do not like Eukanuba as it gave my weimaraner the squits and once you get an idea it is hard to shift it . My personal choices would be ProPlan, Arden Grange or Challenge (which is what I feed now as one dog is grain intolerant so I prefer the salmon and potato for him).
Hope she soon settles into a routine. Chase was essentially house trained very young and rarely had accidents - Brice on the otherhand was nearly a year before he was reliable .... mainly wees mind you.
Patricia
From Jessica Rush: Purina veterinary diet team.
Generally Eukanuba seems to be a good diet, but have heard it said a few times that it can cause very oily skin / coat – so watch how much eat (re: weight) as oil is fat.
Personally I would recommend Pro Plan puppy Lamb& Rice (with Optistart). They do really well on this. Amongst the ingredients, it has a natural form of clay in it to help bind faeces (branded as “Digestion”). Great for delicate stomachs. The Optistart added (unique to Pro Plan) has extra antioxidants and colostrum – proven to help build puppies immune systems, line the gut and balance gut microflora (good bugs and bad bugs)... producing happier & healthier puppies.
The feaces should be more solid, and less of it too.
Alternatively, the Pro Plan puppy salmon & rice is great too – for Sensitive puppies... limited in ingredients (one of the most hypoallergenic products on the market – though to be truly hypoallergenic – the diet must be “hydrolysed” which is only found in prescription diets – i.e. Purina Vet Diet HypoAllergenic, Royal Canin Hypoallergenic, or Hills Z/D).
Pro Plan puppy main ingredients are actually good quality cuts of meat (i.e. lamb or salmon) and rice – which are highly digestible. The main ingredients are NOT dehydrated meat protein, animal derivatives or cereal... which are not so easily digestible – therefore producing more faeces.
Also both lamb & rice, or salmon & rice Pro Plan are wheat gluten and dairy free.
barbara
My bitch is also fed on Purina Proplan Puppy food for about two weeks before whelping and the puppies have the same food when weaned. If you want to give the puppy milk goat's milk is best. As Sue & Gay said the only way to get a very young pup through the night is to sleep in the same room and take the pup out when it stirs, it does work. One of my pups got really stressed if it had an accident in the crate, even though it had a bed at one end and paper at the other, and would jumped all round the crate if it had an accident which could be why yours spread poops all over the place.
Take her out as soon as she wakes and praise her for performing and straight after a meal and she will soon get the idea.
Good Luck
doganjo
and make the last feed earlier - you might get a bit longer in bed that way. Mine are always fed 8 am, 12 noon, 4/5 ish pm and 8 ish pm, tehn down to three meals a day about 5/6 months then 2 meals a day at about 9/10 months but the number of meals is usually set by the dog not completely emptying it's bowl in 10 minutes.
barbara
I forgot to say she should have been wormed 3 or 4 times before you collected her, every two weeks until 12 weeks old.
JayPatrol
I feel like we're resurfacing now after a couple of challenging days.
As well as being more careful to take here outside at the right times we're also getting up twice in the night at the moment to check on her and give her a loo opportunity. She doesn't seem very keen to go out in the cold/dark though.
We've restricted her space in the kitchen and whilst she happily sleeps in her crate haven't locked it again at night yet - trying to see how we get on with papers.
Thanks to everyone who gave advice (and yes Annie you had covered most, if not all of those things off yourself).
We're almost fully migrated to Pro Plan with a litle warm water on and off (thank you Patricia and Jessica). And no milk but a few other goodies like the occasional carrot, a few frozen peas (one at a time - propelled by a hairdryer - I'll post the video when I get the chance) and sometimes an icecube (I think that's ok for her teeth?).
Poops are more solid now - must be the clay in the Pro Plan. When I heard there was clay in the food I was hoping for a pooped espresso cup or at least a thimble but it's still just poop at the moment javascript:emoticon('')
)
. My personal choices would be ProPlan, Arden Grange or Challenge (which is what I feed now as one dog is grain intolerant so I prefer the salmon and potato for him).
