Raw food

sallie · Raw food

Hi,
do any of you feed your dogs on the barf or raw food diet - because of Monets allergy to gluten i have changed him on to a raw diet. I just wondered what you gave your dogs for roughage - i can't give Monet cereal so i am stuck - because of his lack in roughage Monet has started to graze on grass and eat sticks. Also i give Monet sunflower oil every day- is this good for him?
Ta Sallie

Mugi

I feed raw.....

There are some 'factions' that feel the dogs will get all their nutritional needs from Raw Meaty bones and meat, offal etc and others that feel there needs to be some 'fibre' added.

I don't routinely feed roughage as one of my dogs just will not so food works as this.

My deerhound is picky with raw meaty bones so mostly gets raw mince (lamb, beef, chicken or tripe), pilchards in tomato sauce, heart and bonemeal to ensure he gets a balance of calcium and phosphorous. He is allergic to wheat and intolerant of rice but will eat left over veg so gets cooked leftovers with his meat. He is not routinely supplemented, he is well grown, lean, muscled and active. He was fed on a mix of Burns and Raw from weaning.

My WSS will not eat kibble, he is the only dog who was getting to need veterinary intervention cos he was starving himself before my eyes when I tried to feed kibble. He eats RMB's, mince, meat chunks but NO VEG and no wheat/rice and again he is a fit, gleamingly coated and active dog. He is supplemented with Cortavet as although only rising 6 he has widespread arthritis due to his start in life.

Mugi decided he wanted to be raw fed a month or so after he arrived here, he has recently started to decline bones so gets bonemeal like Brice. He also gets cooked veg leftovers and has a variety of supplements appropriate to his age and health issues.

Chase is the most widely fed, he eats primarily raw like the others with veg etc but he also gets a periodic kibble ration on the advice of an animal nutritionalist to keep him able to manage all types of food.

I find all mine will sometimes graze if there are new crops although I haven't found any eating sticks. My friends kibble fed ESS also grazes so I am not sure it indicative of a lack of roughage or just a desire to eat sweet new shoots???

I don't feel knowledgeable enough to say what is right or wrong - I know my lads are healthy and happy and my vet supports how they are fed and cared for.

sallie

thanks for that - my spaniel cross has arthritis due to an accident in agility, what is cortavet? i treat her with aspirin and when it gets bad the vet gives me metacalm - but to be honest i don't like the side affects of metacalm.

Mugi

Cortavet is a more concentated form of Cortaflex which I have previously used. It is a form of Glucosamine and Chondroitin that is delivered in a small molecular structure making it more accessible for uptake. In younger dogs it has been found to plumpen the cartilage and in older dogs with more significant arthritic changes it slows down the damage.

Initially my vet had advised the use on a previous dog but now companies like Vet-Medic supply the supplements on-line at a competitive price.

There are many different formats, I am happy with Cortaflex/Cortavet and can only say that Mugi now has a better rear action than he did 18 months ago and he has managed a season beating despite starting late in life. I can't know if the supplement is the reason Mugi and Freddy are more mobile or if it is down to another element of their diet and lifestyle but if I run out I feel they start to stiffen if they are without too long.

Mind you my previous weim did not respond to a similar regime so I hope I am not blinkered Laughing

.

I don't use Metacam, Rimadyl or any of the NSAID's unless I have no other option to keep my lads comfy. I have bad experiences with the drugs in the past and personal knowledge of how the human equivalents have made me feel as I have used them for well over 20 yrs on a pretty regular basis as the lesser of a number of drug evils.

guy

mine are all on green tripe with a glop of salmon oil added and an egg incl shell every so often; chicken wings or meat offcuts from butcher once a week. Although recently they have also had dried complete (25% protein)- the stuff Topaz won at his trial, but too much seems to give them scurf.

They were fed once a day and used to often graze in the afternoons and were then sick. Now being fed twice a day with very little grazing

Victoria

Guy, how much tripe do you give each one. I have found a butcher who sells it and could not remember if you had mentioned the quantities before under a different post.
Processed versus raw...raw wins every time but I do cook up a 'boil up' for them everyonce in a while, which includes silver beet, garlic, potatoes etc with stewing steak etc. The first boil up after a worming, I will add some kelp and salt to the stew liquid. Dionee was a bit confused with the carrot pieces at first!!

guy

Victoria,
They have about 600gms a day. This keeps them on the trim side - 'hunting lean' On hunting days Topaz would have an extra 200 gms in the morning.

Liz

I changed mine to raw feeding about a year ago, as I had terrible problems with Sherry farting Shocked

and it was suggested this could be a wheat intolerance.

I only intended to change Sherry (then 5) and possibly Rosie (10) as the other dogs I had at that point were Bliss (14) and Toby (12 year old Weimaraner) and I didn't want to change a very old dogs diet. However they rebelled and it was definitely a case of "we want what they're getting" so everyone changed.

Rose and Sherry are fed twice a day: breakfast Sherry has 3 chicken wings, Rosie has 2. Tea time they get either minced tripe or beef or lamb - Rosie around 100g and Sherry 200-250g - and chopped up raw veg. For those who don't know them, Sherry is a lot bigger and far livelier than Rosie, who is small and quite laid back (for a Brit!)

Toby and Ozzy (4 month old pup) get 3 meals a day. Wings for breakfast, meat and veg teatime. Toby gets lunch - his tripe (he can't tolerate other meats) is split between the 2 meals, and he also gets a raw egg daily. The pup gets kibble for supper.

Since the change I've found that Sherry is no longer a gas works Very Happy

. They produce less sh!t, and what they do produce is easier to pick up. Coats are much better. Teeth are cleaner.

I find it good that you can vary the amount and proportions of the foods you give the dogs - tailoring it to their individual needs. It is a bit more work to get food sorted out in advance, and I did have to get another freezer for the dogs, but the advantages make it really worthwhile.

Annie as admin

Hi Liz
Where do you get all this stuff? I might try it once I move as Allez is a living moving breathing gas works as well.
Annie

sallie

Sounds to me that all brits have a windy bottom problem! I am giving Monet - kidney, liver, minced beef, chicken wing, egg and veg per day... might have to cut him back Embarassed

Thanks for all your help

Bernice

Sounds to me that all brits have a windy bottom problem

Tommy certainly has ..... Shocked

our other dog Judy (English Springer) never has this problem - they eat the same food. Tommy does eat very fast though - perhaps that causes it. And Judy is a "lady" ...... Smile

Bernice

Patricia

Just to let you know the advice I have received on the subject from a qualified nutitionist/ vet working on the subject of the diets.
It has been noted that Rickets in dogs has made a come back since the introduction of such a diet. Plus a significant amount of eccoli is present. Especially the concentration of such in abbattoirs. In the wild, a dog would scavenge, but there again, how many dogs would you find catching chickens? The domestic dog is just that, a man made dog. In the wild he would resemble a dingo type/ carolina dog/canaan type.They would die younger and of diseases.
A raw diet is not great for bones.The minerals contents etc...are not balanced.I am concerned with people feeding my pups on such foods and therefore seeked advice. I am not a liberty to reveal names...
I have fed tripe but with a commercial food too.There are some good brands of dog food on the market, don't disregard them because the raw food is popular right now.Also check your minerals when " home cooking" there is an article on it in this week's Dog World.
Just beware...
Patricia

Annie

Thanks for that, Patricia. I must admit to being a little worried about the raw diet. I did hear of a litter of pups that died because they were weaned on chicken wings which had bacteria on them. I'm not sure I could be bothered with the regime required when it is so much easier to feed a nutritionally balance prepared dog food - out of the bag into the bowl. Gives me more time for other things - like playing with them Laughing

I do give mine extras such as left over casserole/pasta/curry/bolognese though, so I suppose I am then 'unbalancing' that Rolling Eyes

Don't know if there is 'perfect' answer TBH
Annie

sallie

Monet has tried these commercial dog foods for nearly two years - including the holistic, gluten, dairy, soya free best of brands all of which have made him ill. Since being on this diet he has not had vomitting and diarrhoea or weight loss - surely a food that does not make a dog ill is better for his health and happiness rather than following a regime endorsed by industries such as Masterfoods/Mars Corporation (Pedigree Chum); Colgate/Palmolive (Iams, Eukanuba and Hill's). I take the wellbeing of Monet very seriously and have not taken this decision lightly - i feed my spaniel cross on Burns one of the best convenient foods on the market and her digestive system can tolerate it, she also does not like the raw diet... what i am trying to say is feed the dogs the food that they can tolerate, in turn this makes them fit, healthy and happy - what more can an owner want. Surprised

Annie

No-one is disputing that. No-one is saying that prepared dog foods are the best for every dog. However, neither is anyone saying that a raw food diet is best for every dog. My friend's labs have gluten intolerance and she feeds A & I Chicken & Rice, which is a nutritionally balanced prepared food. They have beautiful shiny coats and work hard picking up three days a week in the season.
Annie

sallie

Hi Annie
what is A & I chicken and rice? as i don't think i've tried him on that and i need a food to take away with me at weekends

Annie

I don't know the brand myself but I'll ask Sue for you tomorrow

Victoria

Thank you Guy, I shall buy some tripe on my day off.

Once upon a time in the good old days when I was a girl ( Confused

)we made home made dog biscuits and our dogs ate meat, raw or cooked.
They were given skim milk from the separator, or a bowl of frothy milk warm from the cow, when separating wasnt done. When they were not doing stock work, they were hunting rabbits, possums, feeding whelps, or lyng in the sun. They were never ill.
You never heard of eczema, bowel and other cancers in dogs in those days. Our Smithfields died in their sleep in years exceeding their allotted span.

Patricia

This is from my daughter Jessica- breeder manager Purina-

The questions and responses on feeding the BARF diet are fascinating.
I don't claim to be an expert on nutrition, but having worked at a vets for nearly 4 years and in the pet food industry for the last 16 months, with quite a lot of nutritional training during that time - and I would be very wary making up my dogs' diets. One of the main reasons being the calculations that are needed to ensure feeding the correct balance of nutrients, vitamins and minerals for the size/ weight and energy requirements for the individual dog... having had to work them out myself during seminars and training - they're a nightmare! You almost need an A level in maths!
There has been a huge amount of press about the BARF diets and they are becoming increasingly popular, but what worries many of us is the lack of information / advice about working out what your dog needs whilst feeding a BARF diet. I have come accross people feeding just chicken wings to their 4 month old puppies. It terrifies me to think what calcium / phosphorous deficiencies could arise from this, not to mention anything else.... but then you have the other extreme where people are supplementing their dogs too much (without knowing it - as they're just following the instructions on the packet), little realising or knowing how much of a vitamin or mineral, etc is actually in the diet they are feeding, and this can lead to just as severe problems. I've seen cases where hips & joints have been severely distorted by incorrect feeding (this was not caused by neglect, but by mis-understanding). Plus the bacteria that can be picked up. Vets are also now seeing cases of rickets, and several other diseases (since the increase in popularity of the BARF diet) that were thought to by wiped out years ago!

Only sunday at Crufts, I was discussing the benefits of some of the latest research in puppy food, and the lady told me about a litter of 10 labrador pups, 9 of which died due to e.coli poisoning from being fed raw chicken wings. They loved the food, but is this a risk I would want to take?? Yes it's an extreme case, but not the only one by a long shot.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against feeding bones etc as a treat, to help teeth, or keeping the dog stimulated. Just not feeding as the main diet. There are many reasons why companies do the research into diets as they do, and it is not just to line their pockets! However, not every food will suit every dog, and also there are some diets I have looked into that aren't really what they claim.. i.e. being "hypo allergenic"; certain flavour being the main ingredient - when it isn't even on the ingredients until way down the list; natural; amongst many other claims, naming no names.
You do have to be careful, and it's experiencing these diets that make people think all complete diets are bad, over manufactured and artificial. But I won't go into it further!

Basically, dogs were created by man, they didn't evolve naturally and nor did their digestive systems - therefore, they are not completely like wolves or other wild dogs. And wildlife do not have the same life expectancy or ways of life that our domestic pets do. neither are they wormed, vaccinated etc.
Their lifestyle and diet is completely different. Can you honestly say that you know the nutritional value from a wild dog or wolves diet, and how that would compare to a home made one? Without all the dreaded claculations, I wouldn't!

Unfortunately many vets do not get enough in the way of training on nutrition whilst at uni, and are not nutritionists...

Jessica

sallie

The question that i asked was 'what roughage do you feed your dogs' Annie kindly gave me some sound advice by pm.

Surely working in the pet food industry you would advertise the benefits of your own food, it would go against the grain to endorse another feeding regime.

There is conflicting evidence out there from nutritionist, some reports show the increase in liver, kidney and heart disease due to the chemical inbalance and derivatives added to convenient commercial dog foods, there are also reports showing the side effects of the barf/raw diet such as rickets - neither diet is right or wrong.

I have made my decision to feed Monet the raw/barf diet as an informed, independent, individual who has the best interest of my dog at heart. Very Happy

[/quote]

Liz

There is general ignorance in this country about nutrition - for humans, let alone for dogs.

I fed my dogs commercial diets for many years, but was finding that in order to suit my dogs different needs - different ages, different breeds, different energy levels, faster or slower metabolic rates - I was almost needing to give each dog a different food. I didn't have the storage space for all these different foodstuffs!

I also became increasingly concerned that while I was trying more and more to feed my family unprocessed natural foods, I was giving my dogs a highly processed product.

What suits one person's lifestyle won't necessarily suit another.

Annie as admin

Sallie's question on roughage for these raw diets made me ask my friend Sue who is an acupuncturist and Chinese Medicine Practitioner. She has food allergies herself as have her labs so I though she was a useful person to ask. She says that some sort of cereal is necessary and recommends rice. Apparently in the far east when fasting they never completley fast and always eat a little boiled rice each day. It is good for the digestion.
Hope this helps
Ugh - back to the packing now - who suggested moving house - I'll give them 'house move' Twisted Evil

Patricia

I would not dare advocate one brand against another. I am purely stating some facts which are based on science. But, on a personal basis, I tried a high quality puppy diet recommended by a friend- not Purina!!!!!!!!!!- who also bred Rotties( as well as a Brittany now) and the difference was immense. In rearing and cleanliness.Their quality is obvious for everyone when you read the label. Meat MUST always be listed first.
And indeed, there are a lot of rubbish foods on the market.Best to go in to everything with your eyes open. And the fact my daughter works for the pet industry has nothing to do with it. We have experienced all sorts over our 20 years in the breed, diet also influencing behaviour.
Patricia

Ghilliegumdrop

At the moment both Merlin and Ghill are on Purina 2-24 month Large breed puppy food....nothing to do with Jessica....just that G & M Growers had a bag that was open and I got in there first. I put some tripe with it and both of them are eating well and enjoying it so I don't think I shall change it for a while.

Annie as admin

I'll be honest, with a limited pension, both the dogs and I eat the cheapest I can find. The local animal feed store bags their own dog food and the guys seem to do well on it, wth nice shiny coats. I look for my own food in the reduced section of Tesco and Morrisons. I have a nice shiny coat too Wink

Dave A

I have been glancing through the posts on food and feeding . To the people who own dogs that are allergic to glutten you can find a good number of qualitity products on the market to cater for this problem, I have used a couple of types of complete foods in the past for this, I might mention i have been using complete foods for over 25years and wouldnt use anyother method ,but it is each to his/her own.I currently work 3 britts aged between 14mths and 10 years and they are all doing well,If i want to make it more intersting or have a fussy feeder i add a very small amount of tinned meat, and i mean small amount ie a table spoon full mixed in. Another thing to keep an eye on is the amount of protien present as this can cause behaviour problems

Ghilliegumdrop

I thought the Brittany was a behaviour problem Twisted Evil

Dave A

Good point, whilst i am on here meant to say i liked your dog merlin at crufts he is a soid looking lad, I didn't recognise the sires name , is he a local dog and does he work ?

guy

Victoria

Guy, for the dairy goat group in recognition of length of membership I had little gold Toggenburg badges made; each gold Toggie denoting 10 years of current consecutive membership; how about a little gold Breton to denote forum members...that would also be a way of getting more people on the forum...if they saw people with neat little gold Breton badges, they would all want to register!!!!

Patricia

Regarding protein: I will post further information on this:again, I was corrected on this subject.The behaviour related problems in some less good complete diets are due to colourants and additives.A bit like in kids I guess...You would not believe what goes into some foods.
I always worried about a balanced diet to keep my dogs in working condition yet not hyper.
Patricia

Annie as admin · how to recognise a forum member

Your Tresallier logo looks good, quite similar to the working hpr one - can you design something similar for the forum in the form of a jpeg? Then we can all download it ourselves and print onto sticky back paper.
Annie

guy · Re: how to recognise a forum member

Annie as admin

guy

Sorry to get your hopes up - I have just looked at the admin panel and one needs to do it a different way. (When I hosted a forum on my site all I did was overwrote the current image file with the one I wanted. )

you need to edit the brittany club template you wish to use and change the forum logo there and then change the forum to that template from the current 'subSilver' template.

guy

Available as an on line read..

Nutrient Requirements of Dogs.
Revised 1985

Subcommittee on Dog Nutrition
Committee on Animal Nutrition
Board on Agriculture
National Research Council

NATIONAL ACADEMY PRESS
Washington, D.C. 1985

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309034965

Victoria

guy

Mine comes from a feed supplier rather than a butcher. All they sell is food for working dogs (so no VAT)

It comes in frozen blocks- these will defrost in 24 hours in the fridge, are topped up with hot water just to take the chill off and create a 'soupe'. That way there is very little smell - as once warm .........

This is not their one hundred percent diet - they get cheese rind, eggs, tuna, mackerel, bits of raw veg, raw lean meat (we have a butcher who kills and butchers his own organic meat) chicken wings, mince, salmon oil, fresh herbs, every so often.

Victoria

Gaston loves fresh fruit...apples, bananas, etc; helps pick the berries (not so keen on the red currants thankfully)! Found him scratching around under one of the quince trees...he had found one that had dropped into the long grass...does that constitute a flush and retrieve? Smile

Ghilliegumdrop

Certainly a 'pickup'. Very Happy

sallie

Thanks Guy - on that basis, it seems that i need to add fish into his diet so that he can get the beneficial oils... on an academic note, it did push my maths 'a' level to its limit Surprised

This natural diet is improving the condition of Monets coat - it is starting to get that deep shine back to it. Pity it is not improving his hearing Surprised

Patricia

Salmonella in raw foods diets." numerous concerns have been rasied about raw diets. Among those is the possibility from the bacterial infection from raw foods. But these concerns had little data to support or refute them -until now- The results of an investigation regarding the presence of salmonella in raw diets fed to pet dogs have been published. In the study, meal size samples of foods prepared by clients that regularly fed a raw diet to their dog as well as faecal samples from the dogs and similar samples from dogs fed the commercial foods were analysed for Salmonella. Eight of the 10 food samples and 3 of the 10 faecal samples from the raw diets tested positive for Salmonella. All food and faecal samples from commercial foods tested negative for it.
These results provide evidence that dogs fed a raw diet are more likely to shed Salmonella in their stools.This may be of particular concern to pet owners with samll children and those with aged or immune-compromised people in the household.
Furthermore raw meat can contain dangerous bacteria and parasites.Just like us not willing to eat raw or undercooked meat pets are just as vulnerable.In addition, feeding raw diets can lead to fractured teeth or spilinters from bones causing external injuries by lodging in the mouth, throat or chest, damaging the stomach lining and puncturing intestines. There is no scientific evidence to support that raw diets provide a balanced diet, reduce allergies, reduce vet bills, improve coat quality or tooth and gum health. In fact, the evidence is quite the opposite is true.
Whilst it is certainly not impossible to prepare a pet food at home, it requires an in depth understanding of a pet's nutritional needs."
This is a study on nutrition and the needs of dogs.
Patricia

sallie

Although i can appreciate what you are trying to say and your views on feeding regimes - salmonella, camplyobacter, ecoli and many other gastrointestinal infections can occur because of things that are in the natural surroundings e.g. through bird droppings - as i have said i have done a lot of in depth research in to the raw/barf diet and also commercial diets... i am a mature student at the university of plymouth and can get hold of reports that are scientific or reports produced from food companies that promote raw OR kibble - these reports come from all over the world. I base MY feeding regime on what is best for Monet, it is not cheap and is very time consuming - but Monet thrives on this diet and i am not going to change it. Basic hygiene should be promoted when touching dogs that are fed either diet - my grandson has to wash his hands when he has touched my dogs one that is fed kibble and one raw Surprised

Patricia

I agree with you up to a certain point... My main concerns are that there is rather a lot of press promoting the raw diet but no where near enough ready information on the cons of feeding such diets. Both sides of the story are needed for the general public to make an informed choice.
Most dogs do very well on a good quality complete diet, but I must emphasise that the main ingredients should be meat first followed by rice or cereal, etc.

Victoria

I know we have thrashed this food topic here and under Tips and Ideas, but I was interested to hear what my vet said about feeding. I took Dionee in for her booster shots and we were discussing what I feed her.
The vet said that eukanuba should ideally constitute 80% of her food. Ye gads!!!!!!

Annie as admin

Why 'ye gads' - it is an excellent well balanced and extremely well researched food, by a well respected company. And no, I don't own shares in it, nor am I in cahoots with their Directors Wink

But I don't feed it as it is too expensive.

sallie

'ye gads'

Annie as admin

My lot get mixed kibble/muesli/dried veg stuff from local horsey shop, plus scraps (not many of those since there's only me here Wink

), and an occasional scoop of Lidl's Gero tinned stuff, which they would kill for Rolling Eyes

Victoria

Why the 'ye gads'; not only the cost but I just think 80% is very high for dry food. It is quite confusing really; the lady at a funny little pet shop I went to looking for a good leather collar (where have all the leather collars gone, gone to plastic every one, when will someone ever learn, etc (enter the web...import one from the UK, instead, with real brass!!) sells Nutrience; she told me IT was the best; the vet tells me Eukanuba is SUPERIOR to Nutrience (petshop woman told me with the authority of a RSM that Optimum was basically rubbish). It just happens to be (no dye) the one THEY like... supermarket had Beneful samples when it first came out (about a year ago- the ad on TV is neat (well the guy with the dog is cute if nothing else!!)...when proffered to Gaston, he snorted and snuffled, rolled the lump around in his mouth and wandered off (??) Rolling Eyes

guy

Ghilliegumdrop

I though Beneful was a butter substitute.........why would your dog need to eat it Question

guy

Mine was a Purina product, definitely not butter - i can still spot the difference between dog nuts and butter. Full of coloured bits and pieces, and there was me thinking dogs were colour blind.

Annie as admin

She's dottled - she's thinking of Benecol Wink

Ghilliegumdrop

Told you there's no jokes allowed on here Rolling Eyes

Patricia

One thought: Look at the condition, coat and body weight of your dogs. Look at their teeth. Hair. Does that dog strike you as in fantastic body order, not too lean, not too fat, feeling ribs without showing them? If so, you are doing something right.
Nothing wrong with good quality dry food, some have nothing to prove and fed by the most experienced , knowledgeable and true " dog people" Cool

Annie as admin

sallie

No dandruff
teeth white and strong with no plaque build up
hair has a good deep sheen
good muscle tone
all over good weight covering - not fat or thin.
excellent stamina

So for Monet RAW wins the day

and with 26 years of owning and training dogs i am an experienced, knowledgeable and true 'dog person'!! Wink

If on the other hand you are talking about my spaniels - winalot chunks and mixer biscuits rule the day Laughing

my spaniel cross thats 'Burns' fish and brown rice ... my point - all dogs are different

and on a final note all people that are serious, care about and try to do the best for their dogs are 'true dog people'

Mugi

I will come back in on this, I don't profess to be an expert but have been given expert advice by a qualified canine nutritionalist on feeding my dogs since a problem arose with one.

I can quite honestly say that when I got Freddy he had to be fed raw, at the time I was vegetarian and had been feeding my previous dog a good quality kibble for years and was happy. Freddy went to the point of true starvation as he would not eat anything offered, I lie not and he had veterinary intervention to check his nutritional issues. I go to the point he ate barely enough kibble to keep him alive although his liver function was suffering and I gave in and tried raw (he was raised on a raw diet btw). He has never exactly flourished and for a spaniel he has never ever been food orientated but the other day he made 21kg for the first time and he is in super muscle and gleaming coat.

Being a novice raw feeder I was not prepared to try and raise a giant breed on raw but by 6 months old Brice proved he had a wheat and rice allergy so raw he went in the end.

Two years on and we have Mugi, well enjoyment is everything and he chose to eat raw within a few weeks of arriving despite being offered a high quality senior kibble.

Chase I decided to raise on a mixed diet, he loves and tolerates high quality kibble as well as raw and commercial wet foods. At the moment he is slightly lean but he has really upped his activity and he is not eating to compensate as he always wants to be doing rather than wasting time eating. I am sure this will soon swing back to a normmal diet/exercise balance but if not I do weigh my dogs on a regular basis to monitor weight along with a hands on assessment of fat to muscle.

All the dogs with a glossy coat have just that (deerhounds do a rugged look Wink

) and all are on the leaner side of normal but are muscled and very active. I feed a good variety of protein sources and add in roughage and other as advised and appropriate to the dogs.

There is so much information out there and all manufacturers or processors of foods have a stake to develop products that we, the consumer will buy that I see no particular 'problem' with new and better foods being produced all the time - we are as a race always trying to improve on what we have but I do think that we also have choices.

Feeding raw is certainly not an easy option if you want to privide all the nutrients etc that your dog needs, neither does feeding kibble mean you are abdicating responsibility to others to sort out the needs of your dog. We do the best for our dogs as we see fit and I for one will never close myself off to a train of thought.

There are any number of reasons why we all chose to feed as we do, who can 100% say who is right or wrong but I bet all who contribute to forums such as these are striving to do the best we can.

sallie

I WANT SOME OF THOSE EMOTICONS - i can't find them anywhere Exclamation

sallie

found them, how embarrassing is that Laughing

sallie

Hi Sue, you still a veggie? I am one too - and this raw diet plays havoc with my morals and lets not go there when it comes to chopping up heart and other such stuff Confused

Annie as admin

sallie

3 weeks to go and i have finished my degree - i am never going to study again! i must admit i don't tend to read properly - just scan through things, and thats how i miss stuff Laughing

Ghilliegumdrop

How come I get told off for digressing from the topic Evil or Very Mad

johnhod

Ghilliegumdrop

Exactly

sallie

sorry my fault Laughing

Patricia

Remember, you get what you pay for...By the way, Beneful is American.
Check out in any complete food analysis of meat ( protein) of what it exactly is.

Mugi

Annie as admin

Hope Guy is taking note of all this as he and Julia are doing the lunches Laughing

guy

No doubt we will be given a list of those with dietary requirements for the day. Veggie, vegan, gluten free etc - But as Julia is a veggie this option is already catered for. :-)

Nut allergies however are hard; particularly when you are catering in a a foreign country where you don't have the language!!!!

Victoria

sallie

Well here's a turn up for the books, my fault for talking about it really - my spaniel cross that will not touch raw food (meat, fish or veg) and lives off 'Burns' has just been diagnosed with ecoli!! Monet is clear - vet said that it is probably because of the enzymes in his diet that for this time has prevented him from also getting ecoli. Laughing

I must also point out that she has been run down because of her arthritis and this might of contributed to her immune system unable to fight this strain of ecoli. Thank god for insurance Very Happy

Monet is happy because he can stay on his raw diet, although i must admit i am cooking his meat ... just incase Embarassed

Victoria

Sallie, excuse my ignorance but what are the symptoms of ecoli? Hope 'Burns' is improving. Smile

Ghilliegumdrop

Why don't you give her a spoonful of natural yogurt on her food? Not the low fat stuff thats horrible!

sallie

Wish i knew about the yoghurt first - i was conned by the vet and bought some 'Promax' got it home and found that is was expensive pro-biotic yoghurt (£20)!

Hi Victoria - symptoms of Ecoli that Poppy had... about 3 days of being under the weather i.e. not wanting to go out for usually walks, then she got loose stools and vomitting, which after two days turned bright yellow and very, very loose (consistency of water), the worse is the smell - i cannot describe how rancid it smells. She has hardly eaten for one week and when she does it seems to go straight through her and she has had considerable weight loss.

Had Monet checked too - but he is clear, apparently ecoli is not as contagious as campylobacter - which is very rife down here in sunny exeter and to be honest i thought that is what she had. Hope that this helps. Sallie

Patricia

Ecoli is more likely to affect young dogs or old ones...

Victoria

No wonder it can be so dangerous to younger/elderly dogs. I nursed a woman with salmonella; the ahem, odours created by that, I shall never forget!!!!!! Talking of this, every decade or so, sparrows have an epidemic of salmonella; always a worry around the milkers, dogs, cat etc.

Victoria

Our latest gundog trial association mag features an advertisement for 'real meat' dog food (Field and Forest is the name) and thought I might get some for my two to try. Went onto their website and found this link

http://dogarticles.info/recipes

guy

I like to at least try and keep an open mind - so i have been feeding my lot one meal a day complete, the other gren tripe - now i know purists will say that that is the wrong approach. the two orange ones and particularly the older will look in disdain at the dry stuff (I even add hot water to make a bit of a soup) and has been known to go without breakfast and once even went and took a cardboard tube from te recycling box, tore it into bits and started eating those.

I have tried Judges - we won a bag at Caversfield; Eukenuba, Purina, and the local shops own made by Dodson and Horrell. sp.

I have found their coats are not as bright as on pure tripe alone, but some of that may well be the recent conditions at the workshop (very dusty) and also coming into spring and taking on new coats.

Ellie i would say is doing the best on 'Adult lite' although a bit windy. She went a bit podgy on 'working dog' complete and tripe.

If given green tripe and complet biscuits they will all eat the tripe out of the bowl first and the biscuits second.

Researching the net to get a better understanding of their nutrition i came across these
http://www.holisticforpets.com/pdf/UnderstandingPetFoodLabels.pdf gives a rough and ready calculator to self determine the quality or otherwise of a feed - seemed to make sense.
The second http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main seems to have a wealth of info and struck quite balanced in its approach. I found the cost analysis of using premium feed over median quality over cheap most interesting. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=costfactors

There is a link on that site to a nutrition analysis site - for example whole fresh egg http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c201n.html was particularly informative I thought and the first site i have found that gives a detailed analysis of tripe.

As people know I tend to run my dogs 'lean' but i don't like 'tucked up' nor do I want to see 'the pins' as you might in a pointer. I find that complete food tends to leave them a bit 'tucked up' My ESSs also we so. They were on an ad libitum regime so it was not that I did not give them enough!

Does anyone feed their Britt ad lib?

Patricia

Sorry for winding you up yesterday Razz

The link you sent is absolutely correct. It is important to look at what the protein actually is and what your complete" is made with. Is it proper meat or ground up bits and bobs? because when you think of it, leather is protein too!
Tripe is perfectly good for dogs and years ago we used to collect all stomachs from the abbatoir and mince them up for the quarantine kennel dogs. I used it until not that long ago, but it has become expensive and not so easily available. The fat in it is very good for the dogs.
Guy, which completes have you used? quality? Have a you tried a mixer biscuit? I don't like feeding a " rabbit" look alike complete. I have tried several but comparing a cheaper complete with the better brands has been an interesting exercise. One for quantity fed and digestibility, and the other for coat. Toscane has never been so hairy!!!
You have to feed what works for your animals remembering what you want to do with them and if in working/ show condition. If you like them leaner for shooting, you can always " top" them before the shows if that is what you decide to do. JMO.

guy

On the strength of this thread I have looked at my feeding regime again.

I had made a few trials of dried complete food. the appeal of convenience is a great one.

As mentioned earlier i have given a few of the major producers products a go with mixed response from my dogs.

When I get an unsolicited offer of a free bag of food to try i could have taken two views - one -'this is a hard sell' the other - 'if this person is so passionate about their product it must be worth a try'. i took the second view and went out of my way to research the food and also try and source some locally before the free sample arrived. Whilst I was unable to source the 'free sample' food locally i was able to buy an 'equivalent' protein and oil content option.

The free sample arrived the same afternoon - so now I had two very high oil and very high gross protein feeds to try.

I have now been using these for about a week. The two products in question are Purina's 'Performance' and an own brand marketed by FeedThyme (made by a long established feed merchant) . Having personally tasted them both I found the 'performance' the more palatable.

I chose a 300gm ration per dog per day fed in two 150 gm meals.

The initial response from the two dogs (Ellie is on a 'lite' diet so not party to this test) was very positive to the 'performance' and not greatly interested in the own brand. A week on, interest in 'performance from the puppy is waning - some of this may be its 'filling power' . the older dog also has started to refuse breakfast. It may be time to adjust the servings.

Stool volume is quite high, relative to tripe, but well formed and not compacted.

The free sample came via http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk/ a great find - I would invite you to check out their pricing. In the back of the catalogue is a complete list of all their feeds with oil, protein, ash and fibre contents - so very easy to compare them.

mixing tripe with the own brand resulted in Topaz eating the tripe out of the bowl and leaving the nuts. Haven't tried it on the other one.

on an initial quick 'choosing' test - a handful of each product on the floor - the Purina performance won hands down on each occasion.

Just some initial reactions.

Patricia

Guy, no hard sales...pure passion. Laughing

try living with someone who won't lift her nose from a laptop and volunteers to do presentations on "performance". Joke apart, we have testimonies, and one is a Brittany who measured 4 ins across his back. Came back to the breeder as ...-usual story- he ran off. Now on Performance and this young lad has not looked back. He has just now been rehomed to some people whose friends had a Brittany ( another rehoming case) and lived to the ripe old age of 17.
Whatever food, as long as it is balanced and has top ingredients, then it is OK. I have learnt a lot and just when I thought I had it sorted!!! Rolling Eyes

Victoria

Yea, found some tripe!! Will feed to them next week and see what they think!!

Annie as admin

I can almost 100% guarantee they will love it! I have no idea why - it is disgusting stuff!

Patricia

I have not met a dog yet who did not like tripe...When it is good, it is nice grey colour, fresh, springy and firm, not sloppy and green when it goes off...Great stuff. I always used to have it straight from the slaughter house until the EU put its nose into our affairs and made it far more difficult to obtain. The price went up and the supplies became more difficult. You can find it at Anglia meats in lbs blocks, not that great when you have 8 dogs to feed. And no longer cheap.
I worked in quarantine kennels when tripe came in large containers and all dogs were given it apart from the special diets. And that was over 100 dogs...Good with mixer biscuits ie Winalot.

sallie

Have found a dry food that agrees with Monet - its Arden Grange Sensitive, fish and potato... it does not have any grain in it what so ever, no sloppy poo, no nasty whiffs, and no vomitting, draw back being £49 per 15kg bag and no shop sells it so it is straight from the manufacturer. Monet loves it and so does my spaniel X. Very Happy

Patricia

Sallie, that is great news.Arden grange is great and puppies do well on it too. My friend had recommended it to me as she reared her Rotties on it and I was amazed by how well they did and digested it. Have you tried to get it through Berriewood too? They are very competitive in their prices. I have used them for years now as they deliver too. But I am not sure about Devon...

Patricia

For sensitive stomachs...allergies to wheat and NOT doing publicity for proplan. " Salmon and Rice" has NO wheat, soya, beef, chicken, dairy or colourants...

Only Salmon and rice as the main ingredients.

Raw food

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