Refusal to retrieve

johnhod · Refusal to retrieve

I don't usually have a problem with Moss retrieving but since starting training with a local group he is reluctant to pick the dummies on the ground we use.

We've trained with other groups in the past and he has retrieved fine. Only once had a problem with him at the Brittany weekends and that was on a single retrieve. So it's not to do with having other dogs around.

I regularly train him on dummies, on a variety of grounds without problems. It just seems to be this one ground.

The instructor is trying to put it down to the fact that there are lots of rabbits around but that's also the case at Catthorpe and it doesn't bother him there.

Any ideas about what could be the cause or ways I can get round it, other than leaving the group.

guy

Have you tried throwing them and letting him run in for them? It was a trick Rory showed me to 'jazz up' Topaz.

Mugi

Is it just retrieving that is a problem with this group John or is he not as keen overall???? I used to go to a class where none of my dogs would maintain a stay and it transpired that an instructors dog was sat on a stage watching and mine found this unsettling. I just wondered if one of the other dogs is quietly eyeballing him?

johnhod

Guy. Yes I tried that. I didn't explain it before but he'll go out for the retrieve but just blanks it when he gets there then seems to switch off and just wander around. It's really annoying because both times it's happened I've stopped off on the way home and tried with him again and he's been fine. First time I just did a couple of easy seen retrieves. He went straight out picked them and brought them in. Second time I did a memory and a couple of splits. Again no problems

Sue. Yes, it's only the retrieves. Everything else is fine. I think that's why I'm finding it so frustrating.

Mugi

Is he blanking a dressed dummy too?

guy

It sounds almost identical to Topaz at 'training classes' (we go to a retriever class once a week.)

problem one - the ground is used by many dogs and he will, given half a chance, stop to piddle on any tussock of grass.
problem two - he will sometimes pootle out and blink the dummy and then search industriously for it in a 'more likely place'.
problem three - he puts on a 'I cannot be bothered' attitude.

the solutions we have come up with.
1.exercise well before arrival and then 'get on his case' if he starts mucking about.

2. go out to him, put him on his lead, return to start and try again. If that does not succeed return him to heel and send another dog. Jealousy soon kicks in.

3. throw him a seen over the fence and down wind.

I find the simple short seen retrieves the hardest, and nigh on impossible if a pheasant or pigeon should make a noise locally.
The problems usually all stem from the retrieve being perceived by the dog as 'too easy'.

I think he also quickly senses when I he can 'get away' with something - when for instance i am unable to go to him to correct him - say at a trial :-)

Don't know if that is any help?

johnhod

Thanks folks

Guy, I'd thought about the number of dogs and take him onto the ground early if I can so he can go through the sniffing and piddling routine. That seems to settle him for the other exercises. I think what I'm experiencing is a mix of problems 2 and 3 he heads of to where the dummy is, appears to acknowledge the fact that it's there and then goes walkabout.

Sue Tried him on a rabbit skin dummy a couple of weeks ago and while he ran out faster he still ignored it when he got to the spot where it fell.

Seems to have the attitude "I've found it, you can pick it"

Ghilliegumdrop

John, go back to doing it on lead when at this ground so you can control him.

kandjt

Hi John

Just to let you know that BB went down the same route for a few months and even now has her moments. If you get to the ground early sometimes it can be grey with rabbits and pigeons and most Tuesday evenings we see a number of rabbits in the brush by the sides. I'm sorry but I can't remember if Moss had the same trouble with his retrieves from the woodland, BB performs far better with those than the easier ones from the grass.

One cause that I discovered with BB was that she didn't like Nick's dummies, particularly the orange ones, so for a few weeks I just used my own. I'm sure Nick would have no problems if you asked him to use yours. It made me realise that I regularly used the same few dummies for training and I have bought a whole selection of different types and I now use about half a dozen different training grounds to give the dogs different experiences.

Like yourself I became very frustrated because BB was doing everything I asked of her away from the group, both training and out shooting, but I now accept that I need to trade off the benefits that she gets from the obedience and steadiness training with her erratic retrieving. It's also made me realise that she'll never be a working test dog.

As you've seen I have the opposite trouble with Cassie, she is as steady as a rock, but come Sunday afternoon, with the other dogs she wants to retrieve every dummy. If dog training was easy we would all have FTH's.

See you Sunday

Keith

johnhod

Hi Keith

I did wonder if it was the dummys but when I took him to the field before training on Sunday I threw one of his own and though he sniffed it he went past that as well. You've seen him on the steadiness and obedience, I don't think there's a real problem there, certainly none that I can't overcome. Its just the B*&($Y retrieving.

johnhod

Ghilliegumdrop

Long lead, send him out for it, if he overshoots bring him back and start again Exclamation

Just so you are not chasing after him Rolling Eyes

johnhod

I see. I don't think it will work though. He hardly breaks into a trot in he's on a long lead, he juist walks along looking back to see what's touching him

kandjt

John

If you are going Sunday I'll try and remember to bring some cold game, maybe that will give you some idea about the ground and it's effect on Moss

Keith

johnhod

I'll be there Keith. It would be great if you could bring something along to give him a go on.

Thanks

Dave A

hi Keith
Hows it going with your youngster, will you both be ready for next season ?

kandjt

Hi Dave

BB is working out just fine, she discovered deer on holiday so I need to try and do some work on that before we go back to Scotland again. My lab pup is showing loads of promise so I'm hopeful she'll be ready for next season.

Keith

Dave A

sounds lke you are having fun !!!!!, I have been slowly building up the training with the youngest of my trio and she is doing ok. I have had her on a grouse moor up until the birds started nesting and she has taken to it well , With good comments from the keeper . One thing that did make me smile was something he said after a training session, " they are more of an old mans dog than his breed " He is 70 + and has a new setter (irish) so i guess he isnt to wrong on the reasoning. Thought you might find the comment of interest as you try to sort out your old mans dog in full flight at your next training session.

Patricia

My experience has been that most of the Brittanys I have owned were not that keen on dummies once passed a certain stage. Embarassed

Once they had xeperienced the thrill of " real " game", cold too, the dummies went out of the window. Unless you are a really good trainer with infinite pateince and do some "controlled " ie forced retrieves (I am not good at these) it is hard...

I have a young bitch who will fetch dummies with feathers around but definitely not plain dummies. She blinks them too. I had to revert to obedience,no retrieving and fetching other items like tennis balls or else.
As there was no point in a battle.

But over the years I have found my dogs really did not like dummies, apart from BB's mother and BB's brother who would retrieve for the hell of it, from stems of rape to bits of plastic laying around. I treasure such dogs as the training moves on so much faster. After all this and no success then I would resport to professional help and advice such as Rory's... Very Happy

Only my findings....

Dave A

I had a springer spaniel that didnt like dummies and as a last resort as i wanted to do a bit of training, I took all my daughters cuddly toys into the garden, the dog wandered amongst the sea of teddys and brought back a small sheep (toy) and that is how he started ,once onto cold game etc he was fine, but all the initial training was done using the sheep toy, i hope my daughter doesnt read this, as i used to put it back !!

johnhod

The problem isn't really retrieving dummies as he'll do that. there was a short period at the end of the season where he only wanted game but I fixed that with fur and wings. It's just this training ground where he shows no interest in retrieving

Annie as admin

Allez has retrieved a newly shot duck, a runner, as well as cold game. But all before New Year. So now with nothing else available I only do 2 retrieves and only 2 or 3 times a week and he picks up every one. However, he has just brought me a knitted two foot high clown, my slippers, and ALMOST one of the cats!

guy

hey this must mean you are moved!! welcome back. hope it went OK

johnhod

Welcome back Annie. Have you sorted broadband yet or are you still on dialup? Hope everything went well with the move.

Annie as admin

Move went well, still on dial up till next Monday - Donald is broadband manager with O2 so hoping to get staff(Mummy's) discount from him. My boys have sealed the rear half acre so it is dog safe as we have a busy road next to our lane. hope to do front half acre as well but it will be a humans area - playhouse and activity scentre for grandkids, BBQ area, seats by the stream etc, and my ducks sailing by on their way to greener pastures. Rolling Eyes

Getting off here now as I don't think an 0845 number is allowed on the BT free weekend calls. Mobile is 07984663721 and - phone 01259 7297233 if i'm needed.
Annie

Victoria

Seats by the stream!! sounds wonderful!!

Britmania

In my experience, retrieving training needs to be a mixture of both dummies/toys and dummies with fur and feather added.
The secret is i think, dont make it boring. We have a very intelligent breed, and continuously retrieving the same dummy with the same smell is - boring.
I start off baby pups with a favourite toy, which comes out for retrieving practice only. I shut all the doors in the hallway and hold the pup at one end of the hallway. I throw the toy to the end of the hallway (where there is no escape) hold the pup for a second, then ask it to go and get the toy.
The pup has no distractions, goes straight to the toy and picks it up. Lots of encouragement enables the pup to bring it back successfully.
When this process is engrained, we progress to the back yard.Again, the least amount of distractions are around and the pup has already learnt what you want.
I now introduce another dummy and alternate it with the toy, so that the pup learns to do the same with it as it has done with the toy.
When the second dummy is being retrieved successfully, I then progress onto a dummy with some pigeon wings attached.
By now, the young dog is retrieving in the back yard anything I ask.
Before venturing out into the paddock (you call them fields), I make sure basic obedience has been instilled; ie the dog MUST be able to be sent away to the left or right,come back when asked, wait for commands and
deliver to hand gently.
It all takes time, but a dog with the correct understanding of what you want will work FOR you and to please you.
Retriever training is also most successful if you make it fun. Sophie and I go out every day into the paddocks and I drop a toy and a dummy when she is out infront of me. On our way back, she finds them and retrieves them back to me. This way, she has found something (ie the time spent there is not wasted) and she always gets a few cat biscuits as a reward - so it is a nice thing for her to do too.

Just some thoughts on how to make it more interesting for the dogs.

Patricia

Very good points Very Happy

We call " paddocks" areas of enclosed grass!!!

kandjt

Took BB to the same ground that John has been having problems with Moss and had nearly the same results. She marked every retrieve that was thrown for her, went straight to the fall and blinked every one. She hunted up her blinds found the dummy and blinked them. We tried every type of dummy we had between us without any success. The only thing that she would retrieve, which she did with fantastic drive and style was tennis balls, something she has hasn't seen since we started retrieving training over 18 months ago. Earlier in the afternoon she'd had her daily training session and behaved perfectly and retrieved a thown dummy when we had got home. Hopefully the training group has found some new ground and we'll see if there is any difference

Keith

Patricia

Keith, that is really..odd Confused

What is going on? What are your thoughts?

kandjt

Patricia, As you can imagine I've spent some time trying to get my head around it and can only think that because the ground is used by other dog walkers that the scent of other dogs is overpowering and putting off the Brittanies with their superior noses. My lab puppy has no problems with the same ground and the same dummies. For the life of me I can't explain the episode with the tennis balls. I have thought to stop taking BB, but the obedience training is good for her and the socialisation with other dogs has been really good for her, it has turned her from a sensitive dog into quite an assertive dog as Pepsi has found out.

I'm taking BB for some one to one training with a HPR trainer tomorrow which will give me a better idea if there is a major problem.

Keith

johnhod

I really should have written in earlier to thank Keith for bringing some cold game along with him to the last session that I went to with the group. Moss was totally different of that. We'll be back there this Sunday to see how things go. The possibility of some new ground sounds promising.

johnhod

sallie

that was very good John - 'awkward' - i liked that Laughing

Britmania

Keith, just a couple of questions... how old is your Brittany and have you ever put game scent on the dummies?
Some individuals do need to be taught how to "hold" a dummy and ground that is covered in all sorts of scent (piddle/poo/rabbit etc) can be very distracting for even the most capeable retrievers.

johnhod

I think Keith has found himself in the same situation as me, with his Brittany.

We both train with the same club, on the same ground and we both have dogs that can and normally will retrieve well, on a variety of grounds but refuse to do it on the ground used by the club.

Those who attend the Brittany club training sessions will know that Moss doesn't have a problem on ground covered in rabbit scent or in working in the company of other dogs. It's just this one ****** place that he refuses to retrieve at.

kandjt

BB is two years old and is normally a very capable retriever and has experience of all sorts of dummies as well as cold and warm game. I have used artifical game scent on dokkens and canvas dummies in the past, but to be honest found no significant advantage in using it. I stopped using it when Fleur, on of my now departed Brits got hold of the bottle and drank the lot, so I now save my money. I do sometimes rub dummies with freshly shot rabbits sometimes, which seems to be more effective, not to say cheaper than the artifical kind.

I'm loath to stop going to the club, because BB gets so much out of socialising with other dogs, so I'll probably only use tennis balls for a while to see how it goes.

Keith

Britmania

It sounds like the grounds are definitely the problem. I wonder if there is something the groundsperson looking after the place does that makes the surface so unattractive ( eg:Im thinking of something used to clean up after the functions)? Do any other breeds react in the same way? Are the grounds used for something other than doggie activities?

Weird or wot?!

johnhod

I'm hoping that there will be a positive to be had from Moss having caught KC. I've stopped all retrieving, in an attempt to keep him something like quiet. We've spent the last few days working on heeling, staying and steadiness. I just hope he's as bored with it as I am and will never turn his nose up at a retrieve again.