retrieving - nurture or nature ?

The Plum · retrieving - nurture or nature ?

In a post to Chases Diary Patricia commented on a subject that has interested me ever since my very first Brit. I'd had dogs in the past with retrieve problems but that first Brit was and still is the only dog I've ever owned of gundog breeding to give me real problems. I have now had springers, labradors, brits , G.S.P.'s and a cocker. All of them including a show bred springer were "natural" retrievers - but the Brits were the least natural !

I partly blame myself and partly blame the breeders I bought my Brit from for the problems she presented. By about ten months old she would sit at heel , see a marked retrieve in the air and deliberately quickly about turn and sit again facing the opposite direction to the dummy. Her attitude was ,"If I don't see it then you cannot possibly send me for it !"
Retrieves were a no-go area.

It is hard to be certain in retrospect but I believe this happened partly because I was so fascinated by her hunting and pointing ability that I developed these far too much believing, as it had been with every other gundog I'd owned, that the retrieve instinct would be easy to switch on when needed. I'm afraid that isn't always the case.

More than ever before I now believe that the best way to ensure getting a keen retrieving puppy is to buy a puppy from parents that are both keen retrievers. I don't give a toss if a sire or dam is the Crufts Supreme Champion , if it isn't a keen retriever then I don't want one of its pups ! Why should I have to train in what the breeder should have bred in ?
I haven't noticed any reduction in the price being asked for pups who have non or poor retrieving parents so I'd go for the best deal and buy from parents who have proved themselves as being the full H.P.Retriever !

I have trained F.F. but never to a gundog - a strong retrieve instinct should be built in at birth I.M.O. .........Breed for the best - train for the rest.

I.M.O. we require good "natural" gundogs to be bred, fair enough it is usually better than average trainers that win in trials but what about all the other gundog owners ? What they need are relatively straightforward dogs to train . We should not have to all be John Halsteads or Rory Majors in order to have a good,practical gundog - of whatever breed !

I definetely belong to the keen natural retriever camp - it makes life so-o-o-o-o-o-o much easier !

Bill T.

guy

Can we pin down - natural retrieve instinct- a bit more?

All dogs have an ability to retrieve - if only a toy around the house - they have no other way of carrying anything after all but put it in their mouth. However i will accept that some dogs more than others will carry things around for the apparent 'pleasure' for themselves or because of a greater desire to bring things back to the pack leader.

So is what we are looking for a bit more developed or put another way are the early stages of 'retrieving for the common good rather than retrieving for self play' gone through at an earlier age?

or are we looking for the 'retrieve' to be the default behaviour over the 'hunt'? If it is acceptable to train a retrieverholic to hunt then why is it not as acceptable ot train a hunterholic to retrieve?

So, for arguments sake, let us say natural retrieve ability is 'the display, at a very early age of a desire to retrieve an object to a prompt provided by a human'. Let us now take two identical puppies with identical desires and abilities at an early age - one goes to a home where the retrieving skills are nurtured and enhanced by practice, experience and opportunity the other doesn't. Come reproductive age one will be an outstanding retriever and one will be indifferent - yet both started with identical abilities at a young age. One is lauded and one condemned.

The Brittanys reputation and i would contest its Achilles heel is its independent streak. Is this caused by the dogs confidence and ability to hunt at distance manifest in a small dog? (not that they know they are small) or is it caused by indifferent selection over many years? The priority for the dog was to find game - end of story. We have brought it to the UK and now wish it to play by our set of rules, without fully understanding the language of the rules it is naturally wired to obey.

This independence is either a 'problem' or a 'gift', but much depends on which way you look at it.

The Plum

A good post Guy.

If two pups start of equal in any respect, hunt drive, retrieve drive or independency of spirit and one pup goes to a home where the good traits are nurtured and the "bad" traits kept under control then my viewpoint is this.

The pup that gets the proper nurture to ensure that it fulfils its potential and therefor becomes a no fuss ,no ifs, buts or maybes, adult hunt -point- retriever is the one to take a pup from. The other dog is a maybe dog and maybes aren't good enough to take pups from.

A pup may grow into an adult dog and be saddled with a not so good handler who cannot or will not provide the nurture required but that is not my concern when buying a pup for working purposes. I buy from proven stock. If someone buys from unproven stock they are taking a big chance and if they do so knowing that to be the case then I feel little sympathy for them if their pup becomes just another "iffy" retrieving , "bog off"style Brittany.

You mentioned independence as part of a dogs make up Guy. Since I have bother spelling the word I just call it "bogging off !" Laughing

This bogging off has been and still is a common complaint on other gundog forums. Many pages - almost an entire book has been and is still being written on the subject. The culprit on the other forums is often the springer spaniel - the brit is not alone in having a hunting instinct, the owners and trainers of other breeds have the same problem. In some ways it matters more to spaniel owners for if an H.P.R. goes 30 -40 yards further out than was intended the handler can give a shrug and say," So what ? It is a pointer, its O.K. for it to go 50 or 150 yards from me."

The trainer of a hunt crazed spaniel cannot indulge himself like that. If a spaniel goes 20 yards too far it would probably flush game out of shotgun range. In that sense a spaniel trainer has it harder than an H.P.R. handler.

Bog off type dogs are related to the degree of hunt drive they possess and also to that indefineable "willingness" factor. The hunt drive is needed but so is the willingness to work with a handler - without that bit of the dogs make up being reasonably strong then another "bog off" type dog is well under way. I.M.O. willingness is another factor that needs to be bred for and I believe that the gene that carries this seems to often go hand in hand with the gene to like retrieving - it is an interaction gene that greatly aids in a dogs training.

As I said earlier- breed for the best, train for the rest.
Or to put it another way , the best bred dog is the one that needs the least training to be good at its job............. We should be setting out to breed good dogs - not good dog trainers.

Bill T.

barbara

I agree that we have to breed from working lines if we want to breed hprs with natural ability which is why we imported a proven working bitch (Sierra) from the top working kennel in France, Keranlouan. I have found that even though both parents may be great hprs the offspring may have very different natural ability. For example some puppies will carry anything from a very young age whereas the litter brother or sister may have no interest in carrying. The puppy which carries will make the better retriever imo. The other pup may have stronger hunting instinct or a better nose, it's a bit of a lottery. Our two oldies are litter brothers (12 years old), Merlin is a natural retriever and has a COM and was mated to our imported bitch, some of the progeny are great retrievers others are not interested. Sierra retrieves but has never really carried things whereas Merlin carries anything and everything. So really even if both parents are good working dogs look for a puppy which carries naturally.

Patricia

I love this subject too Very Happy

Pierre Willems has written an intersting article as to the" excellent proven " dogs. The nurturing, the quality of the trainer, the opportunities, the trialing etc... against the dog maybe equally good without the latter.
I have found reading the French Forum that to make the dog 100% on the retrieve ... they do it with the forced method.
It takes an exprienced handler to have the know how and patience to do that right: I don't have that sort of experience, so I take the easy way out and choose the Natural retriever.
I have had dogs who are formidable hunters but will only partly retrieve ( or sometimes yes and sometimes No)...or want to go on hunting. No good for anything, not even obedience.
I no longer want those; the pleasure I have now is from my male who pops up from nowhere bringing me pigeons and dead rabbits the cat has brought back, and for the hell of it, be it dead carcases, stiff rabbits, dummies, anything.
That dog gives me so much more satisfaction because he wants to give it to me. He may be a handful as he is fast but that can be solved.
Bog off dogs, what good are they to anybody?? After all they are supposed to work for us.
But then again, the obedience has to be instilled young and far too many do what they like Embarassed

Trvor Rigby was down here on a shooting training day for the N&S HPR club. He believes the younger you get the pup going, the better.
Expose it to lots of things and get cracking Wink

The Plum

I had already heard that the French and indeed other continental countries were using F.F. to train the retrieve. In my opinion that is a step in the wrong direction for any gundog breed. Our ancestors went to the trouble of breeding in the retrieve instinct often in a stronger form than non gundog breeds have . I have a worry that the use of F.F. could take our present day dogs back towards the retrieve instinct levels of the non gundog breeds.

I have trained non gundog breeds using F.F. but to my mind it is a cruel method of dog training. It means that a dog trainer wakes up one morning and cold bloodedly decides that he will hurt a dog. I think I read that this forum disallows mention of a certain collar. Having trained dogs with F.F. and with that certain collar I can say that given an equal amount of care in their use the collar is kinder.

F.F. is done in various ways , with wires or cords around toes ready to be twisted and by various methods of gripping a dogs ears - pliers included !
It is not something I would ever want to do again. I am not a tree -hugger but that method goes beyond what I would do to a dog.

If dogs are being imported from the continent they may have been F.F. trained in order to compete successfully. They may have a weak retrieve instinct and that may be getting passed on to their pups here.

One dog I trained by F.F. many years ago was a border collie who was a complete non- retriever. He won right up to test C in the obedience ring and since I needed a gundog I did a bit more training with him then used him. I have won retriever Open trials so I have a pretty good idea of what is needed in a retriever. That dog was capable of winning a retriever trial. Had he been a labrador and he'd won trials and people had brought their bitches to him to be mated, what would the result have been ?

It is impossible to say for certain but if he passed on his non-retrieve instincts to even just 1/3 of his pups there would be an awful lot of very disappointed and frustrated retriever trainers going around. I would not have been passing on my ability to train F.F. with every puppy sale. Had those puppy buyers wished to continue with their dog most of them would have had to have gone to the considerable expense and trouble of finding a pro- trainer who could also train the F.F. for not all can and I'm very pleased to say that in this country very few would be willing to.

Bill T.

Patricia

Having read the " Abbe Godard" book lent to me kindly by Guy, I saw many pictures of the FF. One was to nip the ear hard enough than when the dog screamed, you banged a dummy in his mouth and then tickle his chest.
I have also seen the platform and the poulie with the equipment for a FF and the string round the toe in America. It is uncomfortable, the dog opens its mouth.
I will say in that case the dog did not look stessed by it, but I would not know where to start Embarassed

As for the imports, Bill... You get the Ch on spring trials and the ones on Autumn( shot game) mostly on released game that day. Called " cocottes" or chickens. There are the pros for both, the spring trialing fraternity claiming the higher quality for nose sense etc...and speed. Some Chs over there are both( spring and autumn) or even on wild game( woodcock, grouse etc...)
Many imports here come from very good working stock here as you know you cannot just have just SH CHs.
The male I imported last is the dog I described as fetching me all sorts of his own accord. His favourites being pigeons and he is not fussed by the feathers. Sierra is simply from the top kennel as far as I am aware. 3 of her kids in France are Champions, one retrieves naturally according to his owner...

The Plum

I'm not trying to "knock" anyones dog or line of dogs here Patricia. I am simply saying what I believe are good things or bad things to have "naturally" in a breed.

I am against F.F. although I can train it. I.M.O. it could be used to help hide a lack of a natural instinct. If a dog had to be taught inch by painful inch how to run and hunt we would not want it - I apply the same thoughts to retrieving . I like it to be something the dog naturally wants to do and to which, just like hunting , I then apply a few bells, whistles and other odds and ends to take off the rough edges and to have those retrieves done to my direction.

Bill T.

guy

Patricia

Bill, I could not agree with you more...
I was referring to imports which I hope will bring some " positive" to the breed.
The difficult bit I find is finding out the nature of the Stud dog who has a lot of qualifications abroad- Is it biddable, pliable to training, kind nature, not agressive? that sort of thing.- And it is true we don't know how they have been trained...
I like a dog who wants to please without continuous arguments! Wink

The Plum

Guy ,where spaniel ranges are concerned I find it much more difficult to control the range than I do with an H.P.R. After more than twenty years of training wide ranging dogs I barely notice if Charlie exceeds the 15 to 20 yard range that I'd like him to keep ! He is so fast over he ground that I can barely finish giving one turn whistle before he needs one for the turn on the other side ! It is like watching a hard fought ping-pong match ! Laughing

Charlie is often out with Buck and would like to run much longer beats. I think many H.P.R. 's have a beat length . My old girls is about 50 to 70 yards and always has been. If I allowed her to hunt at that distance I had few problems. Trying to check her a lot earlier would have "cramped her style " From what I've seen of Charlie he would naturally turn at about that same distance --- not what you want from a spaniel but in keeping him in tight I am fighting my own nature ! Sad

I thinks Bucks natural turn distance is about 2 - 300 yards. With that kind of distance an odd 20 yards more or less makes little difference - I find it easier to think of H.P.R. ranges than spaniel ones. It seems that I am a victim of my own nature ! I have met the opposite type of trainer, those who are so used to labs and spaniels that they simply cannot get used to giving the freedom to an H.P.R that it often needs to do its job.

Bill T.

barbara

I totally agree that training the retrieve by the FF method is detrimental to the breed and not something I would wish to do.
What I forgot to say in my previous post is that Merlin's litter brother Bret has never really liked retrieving and pick up a bird, no way! Smile

Correct me if I'm wrong Patricia but I believe in France the priority is the passion for hunting, a fast dog with drive and a great deal of time is spent on training the point. In Patrick's videos there are many Brittanys on point in one field all honouring the dog in front and they are trained to hold that point for maybe 15 minutes. The retrieve is often taught with semi live birds to make the dog keen. (a flapping bird is much more exciting)

guy

Bill - do you not think there are different rules being applied here? an HPR turning at its natural beat length and a spaniel having a turn at a desired beat.

I thought the aim (and here I may expose my ignorance) is to have a dog (HPR) turn on command when one wanted it to - thus creating an artificial beat to suit the circumstances. I am thinking here of a wide field that a judge or the guns wish to take in two or more strips - (4 guns for instance = 160 - 200 yard beat (100 each way).

Letting a dog work to its natural boundaries regardless isn't necessarily a dog under control? or is it ?

The Plum

Yes Guy ,I agree that a dog should turn when told to for doing so is often essential. I still like to see a dog ,or at least my dogs, work to their own natural beat as often as possible though for I.M.O. this makes for the kind of dog I like - what I call a swashbuckling hunter - the dog looks "freer." I find it hard to explain that feeling about a dog.

As with just about everything else in dog training a balance has to be maintained. Too little control used in training or at work and many dogs would become uncontrolled but too much used can make for a mechanical looking dog. The "balance" has to be right and that balance varies according to the dogs temperament. Many brittanies seem to thrive on more control being used while that same degree of control might make a sensitive dog type look spiritless.

I think a confident handler often has a confident dog a bold decisive hunter that tears the ground apart yet is still willing to accept control in tight situations. This liking of mine for that boldness and a dislike of whistling too often gives me big problems with dogs that are meant to hunt very close. I don't think I am mentally suited to training spaniels to trial standard ! Laughing

Too much whistle use inhibits a dog, but I certainly accept that dogs must obey the whistle , I accept that they must turn when required even if that dog is only being allowed thirty yards per side in thick cover or where game is abundant.

I'm the bloke that got chucked out of his first H.P.R. trial (an ALL AGE stake) for letting his brittany run her natural beat length in woodland. Vicky was accustomed to running grouse moors.............................. Laughing

The judges commented at the trials end that they had loved the little Brittany bitch but that she was like Hailes Comet - you only saw her as she whizzed past once every 86 years !!! Laughing

I learned a lot by being chucked out that day ! Laughing

It's all about getting the balance right.

Bill T.

eddieh

The Plum

Hi Eddie - thanks for the "appreciation" - must admit I still grin every time I think of it !

I had a lot of fun with that bitch, I deliberately used to wind the other trialers up, they were mainly G.S.P. folk and since I was new on the scene they didn't know that I am a "work" dog fanatic. I used to walk along with the rest of the trial contestants with our dogs on the leashes. Whenever we came to a puddle or a muddy place I used to pick Vicky up and carry her past that area mumbling that I didn't want her to get her beautiful feathering all wet and dirty ! Laughing

One lady eventually lost her temper at this and loudly and angrily said, " Bill - will you put that bloody dog down ! ? It's supposed to be a bloody gundog !" Laughing

I really enjoyed that ! Razz

Brittanies were not well known then and quite a few contestants thought they'd not have to worry about beating a little lap dog ! I loved seeing their faces when she'd completed her run and we returned to the others !

Bill T.

Patricia

Barbara brings up some points which are dear to the French...I have heard previously on another Forum that we want to turn the Brittany into some sort of Retriever and that this is not their prime function Confused

The Spring Pointing trials are held in the highest estime..and that is because, after reading several posts on the subject, the dog has to hunt wild game and not only point it, but find it...in really vast areas and not automaticly with large amounts of game. The dog has to really dominate the bird, do a Coule, and " nail" it.
The important factor in all this is the NOSE quality, which I think Barbara is referring to. The passion, the drive, the way the Brittany gallops and his head carriage. That is really important to the French.
Now onto the Autumn trials, they have definitely trials on wild game like Deols where I followed the judge.
I have not been on released game trials but nevertheless, the same as us, the dog has to be carefully prepared and be steady to flush and shot.
The water retrieve is done only once and entered in the work book of the dog.
Patrick Morin will often speak of the " chien de chasse pratique" and chien de printemps. Chasse Pratique is a good rough shooting dog who will do everything airly well. These are selected as such for the shooter.
Then, the competition dog.... Bit like driving a Sport's car, they are not for everyone though many go shooting with their champions.... Wink

Such a dog matures mentally early and they are the ones chosen for competitive owners. Horses for courses.
These dogs are faster, run hard, and go to the experienced like Sierra's Ubaye, Usmal and Utique who proved what is the most important factor in many Frenchmen's opinion. The Nose, the switched on attitude to find and hold that bird.
This is my understanding after reading long posts on the French Forum, as well as discussions about what is, after all a French dog.
I will finish by saying a dog sitting in a trial is definitely not favoured! Whilst in the US it is eliminating Embarassed

Is that what you meant Barbara?

Lin Dyke

barbara

Yes, thanks for the explanation Patricia Very Happy

The Plum

Nature or nurture has been in my mind again following a day of picking up yesterday. I had two beginner dogs with me Buck the G.S.P. and Charlie the cocker.

Buck gave me a problem with the delivery of his birds - he wants me to play chasey with him for them ! Other than that he does very well for a beginner. He had a few birds last season and this season should see him become quite an accomplished picking up dog.

Charlie , I bought back in April of this year, I think he's 17 months now. This breed was on the way out when some enthusiasts worked on it back in the sixties and seventies. What a difference those enthusiasts have made. On two separate gundog forums it has now been posted that this breed is on the crest of a wave at the moment. I can only say that I agree. Charlie just "does it." With next to no training by most H.P.R. standards he will do anything connected with hunting or with retrieving - other than running in -or attempting to - he gives me no problems to correct by training that aren't of my own making - such as hunting beyond spaniel ranges. He is by far the best spaniel I have ever owned or trained for others.

With just 3 picking up days behind him he will now find and fetch pheasants, ducks, pigeons and rabbits. He will do this in any kind of cover, nettles, brambles, brashings the lot and he will do this from land or water whether the game is dead or alive.

He is a breeders triumph of breeding for nature. Whether I can control all this isn't really the breeders problem. He is a very willing little dog but the instinct to chase and to run in still exists. As an old trial judge friend once said to me - " I wouldn't give you tuppence for a dog that did not try to run in !"

Bill T.

Waldo

I've been watching and reading this thread and have been absorbing as much as I can. Being new to the Brittany/gundog scene I have been stumbling along but getting as much info from varied sources and web sites such as this help tremendously.
I find it amazing to read of the various "bred" in traits then notice these in my Brittany Annie. She is a very willing hunter, I don't know if it was a coincidence or not but at around 12 months when I took her for her first real hunting experience (not just a walk in the paddock) she all of a sudden calmed down at home and seemed to mature a lot in a short period of time. Almost as if she said well about time, I've been waiting for that! Let's go do that again.
She is not a very regular willing retriever when at home though, yet on the couple of occasions when a duck has been shot off a dam she retrieves from land or water without fuss and very enthusiastically, certainly not text book but she does get my duck out of the dam as quickly as she can. These dogs (well at least mine) never cease to amaze me with their natural ability, I'm certainly hooked on the breed and look forward to what she will teach me next.
Cheers,
Waldo

Patricia

I read a lot of the French posts, and some trialling people write their views which I have written in here.
It seems, that certainly one Professional likes to put the passion in the pups and gets 2 to hunt together and sometimes " catch" a quail. Not very PC here, but it creates the wish to look for more birds.
I know in Sierra's case( as I have followed her children's progress on the Forum) several from that litter were reserved for competition. and have delivered. But they were mated to a son of a great dog of the 80's Ebert de Keranlouan. So Nature here. And sold to experienced amateurs, Nurtured Wink

Again: 50% breeding. 50% training.
The Breton is the most popular gundog in France. All little French kids will grow up saying "I want one of those dogs, my dad had one".
I sold one of Lorca's daughter to a French lady who is now so besotted by "Nenette" that she gave up her day job to become Roger Mugford's help Cool

No other gundog matches the Brittany in France...not even a Cocker Wink

guy

The Plum

It sounds like youve got a good one Waldo. Very Happy

My first Brit was like that, I despaired of her as a retriever until, in desperation, I actually took her shooting. She went from being a not likey to a likey very much in an instant ! Laughing

The trouble is that training things like directions to a specific retrieve is difficult if not impossible if the dog will only retrieve freshly shot game. Training for "blind" retrieves etc. is just next door to impossible. Game falls anywhere and to get the best from a dog you have to be able to send it anywhere.

I had to work in reverse with that bitch. The normal retrieving training begins with dummies. Then dummies with fur or feather on, then cold game then warm game then freshly downed game. It is possible to do this in reverse with that kind of dog , I've done it and so could you.

Bill T.

Patricia

The English Setter has only had a slight rise to the Breton in births this year...
When you see shooting parties on a Sunday in France, English are not what you see. Cool

The Brittany is the most common gundog.

guy

very tempted to try and join the local ACC - just so I don't feel guilty about walking all over the fields dog training. I have the guide to the exam book and apart from the names of birds most is very straight forward.

johnhod

ACC??

The Plum

ACC - - - It stands for 'arrass it, corner it and catch it ! Laughing

Bill T.

guy

association chasse communal - or something similar A cooperative 'club' that holds the shooting rights. You have to own land locally or be amongst one of the 10% of membership they can take in who don't have land or live in the commune.

am not quite sure where we fit - our garden is registered as 'agricultural land' but it is within 40 metres of the house, an area the ACC cannot shoot in (but I could).

Pippa's Pack

As a 'non-working' Brittany owner, I hardly dare enter this debate!

However, I find these views on retrieve very interesting and informative. We own 4 Brittanys, 2 of which will retrieve naturally and 2 of which will not. Our first came to us as a rescue aged 2 years. She has always hunted and pointed and I think has an excellent nose. She would not retrieve at all although we tried to persuade her. One day whilst out walking she came running back to us carrying a pigeon. It was still alive and completely unharmed and she brought it straight to us and gave it to us. The same thing has happened with a pheasant, a couple of rabbits and even a young blackbird.

Does this mean she does actually have a natural instinct to retrieve? If so, why does she show no interest in anything thrown?

johnhod

Getting Moss to retrieve dummys was a long and sometimes frustrating task, but give him a bird or rabbit and it's no problem. He has improved on dummys but still blinks them if he considers them not to be challenging enough.

Fortunately the shoot we work on doesn't kill too many dummys so it's eay to get him to work

eddieh

johnhod

Good point Eddie. The problem is that I can't always access game when I need to train him so the desire to retrieve other objects needs to be nurtured. But a natural desire to retrieve natural objects is important I believe.

doganjo

I totally agree with you, Eddie. What I have always been told is that the reason for using dummies is that it is very difficult to keep enough dead game for training out of season. Allez blinks dummies too if there is anything even remotely more interesting in the foresmellable distance

The Plum

The reason a dog should retrieve dummies is that they do not have to be kept in a freezer as is the case with dead game and they can be placed exactly where you wish them to be for the purpose of training a dog directions. Directions are needed for blind retrieves and also for marks where the dog has begun to go a bit wrong. I.M.O. they are esssential for good gundog training - unless you can take your dog out and have it shot over several times a week on a plentiful supply of game. Even then a dog that will only retrieve game would find some retrieves impossible because it could not be handled well enough.

Pippa - the dog you describe is pretty normal . Your situation is the same as mine was 20+ years ago . You would have to work in reverse with live game first - dummies last.

I believe that if a toy or a piece of rag or ball of paper is thrown for a young puppy it should go out and pick it up and run around with it - notice I did not say retrieve it . If the pup can be easily persuaded back to the thrower with its prize then that is a bonus. I find that with most pups of virtually any breed I can get the pup to bring it to me. I build on that small beginning on a daily basis. The one time that I did not keep the retrieving going right through puppyhood was when I landed up with a non dummy retrieving Brittany.

Bill T.

guy

There are a lot of problems I can think of to be had using cold game to teach retrieving.

1. for a young dog a bloodied carcase encourages it to lick and mouth the bird rather than pick it up
2. Some birds (and pigeon are notorious) have very 'dusty' feathers that also fall out very easily. This can be off putting for a young dog. (slipping the bird into a stocking tip reduces a lot of the problem.
3. If the bird is damaged or becomes damaged then there is a tendency to encourage further mouthing and 'chomping'
4. some birds are not that heavy and it is easy for a dog to try to 'kill it' by shaking it violently.
5. a several days old bird does not smell the same to me as a fresh shot one so what is being taught?
6. There is a cost to using cold game, either in the purchase of it or its acquisition and storage.
7. if you keep it frozen you have to thaw it out before use.
8. Half a dozen birds take up a lot of space in a game bag and are quite heavy to carry.
9. i know a number of dogs that will not pick up a bird that has already been in the mouth of another dog.

Dummies are a tool to aid teaching. You can set up situations easily, i can certainly throw one further than I can a dead bird. You are not teaching it to 'retrieve' with a dummy - it knows how to do that naturally, you are refining that skill.
The trick is to transfer the high 'desire' to bring back an animal onto an artificial dummy. You have to invest the dummy with value by your attitude towards it. I bet not many people take a bird from a dog and immediately throw it out for another retrieve - no, they are overjoyed and praise the dog for such good work. Do you praise your dog for bringing back a dummy, is that dummy so valuable to you that you carefully put it in a pocket or bag, did it take a lot of finding or was it just a few yards away in full view?

It may take quite a time to convince a dog it wants to retrieve for you rather than itself :-)

Patricia

So...out of a litter of...well bred parents who like retrieving...how do you pick the one pup which will be reliable? As they do change?
I am interested in Moss, because his father Solo, was the easiest and most retrieving orientated youngster I have had. As I did not sell him until he was older having grown quite tall....
Does that mean Moss's mother is not much good on that side, as Solo loved dummies? He went to Jamie having been shot over, and swimming etc...
Not an easy choice when you want a strong dog in that field. As I said we also don't want boot polishers and poor nose quality. But you don't hear about that Rolling Eyes

eddieh

Thank you all for treating me gently Very Happy

and pointing out the (when you think about it) obvious along with the not so obvious (to me).

I suppose a large part the question I was trying to ask was, should failure to retrieve a dummy be regarded as a fault. It is obvious that it presents quite a problem when training if nothing else

Ta

guy

The Plum

Liz

The Plum

The "nurture" part of things is important too. Belle my "kidnapped" brittany has now lived with my sons family for well over a year. Before she was one year old she would hunt,point and be be steady to flushed game. She had retrieved pigeons, ducks and pheasants - runners included and she would pick dummies - in fact she loved going out for them.

Now she chases rabbits and squirrels and her retrieving on dummies is very "iffy." Even if she condescends to pick it she always spits it out before reaching me. I could get her to do it properly again but what's the point ? Her home environment would be continually working against me.

She is now a family pet - nothing more. My son thinks she's great and a real character but after a bottle and a bit of wine a while ago I pointed out to him that she'd been capable of far more when he first got her than she is now ! From a working point of view her nurture has gone far wrong.

Bill T.

Pippa's Pack

The Plum

My first Brittany once pointed on wild geese grazing in a field. She could not see them, a light screen of trees was in the way................ those geese were at least 600 yards away ! At first I believed she must be pointing on some other much closer game but she roaded on and on until we went through the trees and the geese saw us and flew away - she promptly lost interest. I have heard of longer range points but that was the longest one that I have experienced.

Anyone who has brits as family pets or as showdogs is very welcome to do so, I just wouldn't buy a pup from those dogs. I would need proof of working ability in the parents. It is possible to have a good worker, a good showdog and a good pet - I'm not greedy either - I only want two of these ! Laughing

Bill T.

staandejachthond

for a EB to retreive or not......I think that all gundog's are naturly retreiving "things".....
my EB loures de l'ardour 4-1996/5-2007 did retreive everything he could carry...ducks/fasant/rabbit/pigion/ dead fish crawling with maggots!!(yuk pale

) accept a Hair.......he never retreived a hair....
my joung Eb 6-2006 baron de l'ardour started to retreive as puppy, but then stopped and never wanted to retreive again.....so i think my one off dauhters, did something while during changing teathtime that made him to stop retreive....
in februari he went with the breeder to spain for training, and there is him told to retreive, and no ather choice than that...
with the beginning of the duck hunt season in holland; he was first a litlle reluctend, but with some strong persuation he went.....last saturday he retreived a hair...... Shocked

I think that they do retreive very well....but training and nurturing during puppytime is most importent...