kandjt
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Shooting Times ArticleAfter being on holiday I was trying to catch up with my reading when I came across an article by David Tomlinson in last weeks Shooting Times. I know some of you have had a difference of opinion with him, but I must admit I found the article thought provoking. In particular when he wrote:
"I have spoken to many show gundog judges who have never seen their chosen breed working in the shooting field. How can you possibly judge any animal unless you understand what it was originally bred for?"
I could not help but compare this statement with the details of the selection and training of judges in France that Patricia posted on the forum some months ago. Altough I do not show my dogs I have been known to attend dogs shows and I also have a number of friends who show other gundog breeds and one of the gripes I've heard on a fair number of occasions concerns the performance of non-breed specialist judges. I wondered if a lack of knowledge on the working characteristics of Brittanys (and other breeds) was a contributing factor? I know that the Club runs potential judge's seminars but I am ignorant as to their content. Is there an opportunity for potential judges to see a Brittany at work? or if not is it something that could be built in?
Keith
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johnhod
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Surely dogs were originally bred to trot round a ring, until some evil people took them out in the cold and wet and made loud noises around them with things called guns
Now where its that emoticon, you know the tongue in cheek one 
Hope you had a good holiday, I hear at least one day was a success.
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Patricia
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Keith, as a matter of interest I have read the French judges training for fields.
Again, the student judge needs 2 years to be a " student judge". The assessor judge comes from a breed club who in turn reports to CUNCA.( Commission D'utilisation Nationale de Chiens D'arret) Basically an HPR Organisation. The assessor will take the student under his care and that will lasts 2 years.
The Assessor recommends the student to CUNCA where he will be controled on 5 occasions. If 4 of those controls are " positive" then the student will go trough. If only 3 then the student will have to do a further year.
That is a a very short resume but you can get the drift of it!
For the showing side I had pages and pages and translated the relevant bits.
It goes without saying the Assessor has to be of good character and pass his knowledge on etc...
For the shows, it is said ( as I re read it) that the judge must be absolutely familiar with the standard in ALL the breeds he judges,and be able to give a detailed critique. And be accutely aware of the repercussions his judging could do to a breed... Now that is an interesting comment.
If anyone reads Pierre Terran's posts, you will see the emphasis on understanding the head carriage, the gallop of the Breton ...in the field.
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doganjo
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| johnhod wrote: | Surely dogs were originally bred to trot round a ring, until some evil people took them out in the cold and wet and made loud noises around them with things called guns
Now where its that emoticon, you know the tongue in cheek one
Hope you had a good holiday, I hear at least one day was a success. |
That's not a chip on your shoulder is it John?  Is this what you were looking for? 
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | That's not a chip on your shoulder is it John? |
More like a b$££?y great log. I can't understand why people insist on getting involved in gundog breeds when they have no intention of using their dogs for the purpose that they were originally intended. I hate the thoguht that the brittny could go down the same disasterous path as some of the other gundog breeds that have been ruined by breeders whose only interest is the show ring and the money they can make from breeding
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doganjo
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| johnhod wrote: | | Quote: | | That's not a chip on your shoulder is it John? |
More like a b$££?y great log. I can't understand why people insist on getting involved in gundog breeds when they have no intention of using their dogs for the purpose that they were originally intended. I hate the thoguht that the brittny could go down the same disasterous path as some of the other gundog breeds that have been ruined by breeders whose only interest is the show ring and the money they can make from breeding |
Well, I guess I was that person - note I say was.
Basically I have loved Gundogs, (and I would have no other type of dog incidentally) since I was born, having been brought up with my Grandfather's Working Springer - he was out shooting every weekend in season, as well as any time Granda could get away from our Ice Cream factory. I had a cross Lab/Cocker as a pet when I was a youngster and we did obedience and agility together. Sandy and I got into Cockers, after we were married, and thereby gundogs, by accident, when Sandy's boss was emigrating and needed a home for Brandy, and we got involved in showing with our next cocker a very pretty little blue roan, because everyone said she was lovely. We had Show Cockers for a number of years and they couldn't have done a days work even if we'd let them try. When we had a disastrous time a few years later with a raging Cocker we moved on to Brittanys and the first thing Stan said to Sandy was would he give Brett some work. So we went to training classes, and took them hunting in the forests and moors around Aberdeen every day. But the trainers in Aberdeenshire weren't interested in HPRs, still aren't, so we were very much left to our own devices and working in the dark, and we didn't know any shooting people. If we had known then what I know now we might have been working and trialling them by now. But that doesn't make me a bad person because I like gundogs and want to show them, and I don't think you really can generalise in this way. It is not the be all and end all that they have to be taken out with a gun and shot over. If they are getting regular runs at speed through all sorts of cover, and obey basic commands, why can't pet owners have gundogs and show them as a hobby if they want to? I doubt if I would be your faithful treasurer but for my love of showing. So I would honestly ask you to try to understand "why people insist on getting involved in gundog breeds when they have no intention of using their dogs for the purpose that they were originally intended" Because I had no intention whatsoever of working my cockers when I first got them. There can be many and varied reasons why people get involved in any particular breed or group.
I was also fortunate that my second husband, John, became interested in working my Brittanys and took part in Field Trials with our little star, Gigi, but it is only recently that I have taken courage to do likewise.
I would also take issue with the statement | Quote: | | the money they can make from breeding |
The last litter I had in 2006 awarded me the princely sum of £1 per hour. This time round with half the number of puppies, probably about 50p an hour. Would you work for that, John? I do it because people want puppies from my breeding lines and/or I want a pup myself. Perhaps some of teh big breeders and top show kenels and also puppy farms can make a profit from breeding, but not the dedicated owners like myself. Only a small handful of the 30 or so pups I have bred in 25 years owning Brittanys have gone to non-working homes. I will however admit that next year's Aberdon pup will stand a far better chance of working because of moving house, making and renewing friendships in the shooting scene down here, and increased knowledge of what is required of me. If I have anything to do with it the Brittany will remain DUAL purpose - but it will not be SINGLE purpose and working only!
Annie
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Patricia
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I am sure you are not the only one thinking that way John. I hope to God the Brittany never goes the way the English Springer went or other breeds. People like the nature of the Gundogs in general, soppy Spaniels etc... Googoo Goldies, easy Labs. I think that is why? Maybe someone will say different?
Fortunately the HPR's are not quite as popular, The Brittany is not that easy and that is why I always thought it to be a good idea to put all the Positive and ...the Negative points on the BCGB web site. 
Nothing worth than ending up with the wrong dog for you and both being unhappy( nearly like marriage!)
On the plus point, we have more people interested in working the dogs than a while back and some working orientated enthousiasts on the committee. So that is a very positive side. Also I have had emails of some asking how to join the N&S HPR, as they realise they come from as far as Clacton, Southend etc... Some show people are also trying working tests and spring pointing...
One of my vets told me that one of her breeds, the Bracco, did not have a field trial representation at the time. But an "event" side 
My own and personal view is the same as the French, I am not interested in just a SH CH. This is of course, only my feelings. 
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johnhod
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See, I told you I'd get a reaction 
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Patricia
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This actually runs deeper...It has to do with the desire to breed for " selection"...As Bill's favourite topic, " the proof of the pudding is in the eating". You have more chances to have a higher working drive from " tested" parents than the untested who may still come from good lines.
Hence the reason for the scale of values in France...It does not mean the others won't be any good, just that you are putting more odds in your favour by having titles? Yes, No??? Opinions?
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johnhod
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True
By not even attempting to work your "gundog" how will you know if you are breeding poor quality in or not? Unless your dog retrieves how do you find out if it is hardmouthed, if you don't introduce it to shot how do you tell if it's gunshy. If it's never put onto a runner how do you know if it will track one (just a few of the many failings that a breeder could, perhaps unwittingly, be promoting in the gene pool)
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Patricia
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Again, it is selection for what people want. I would be interested to hear on this Forum how people " match" their dogs for future puppies and what are their criteria?? That could make an interesting conversation!
If for instance( on the working side) your bitch is not the strongest of retrievers, you might want to put her to a dog who is excellent in this department.
Ifd you have a wilfull bitch, you may think about a softer and more biddable dog...and go down the line that way.
I feel biddability is understated in our breed... All that of course without forgetting conformation!
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doganjo
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| Patricia wrote: | This actually runs deeper...It has to do with the desire to breed for " selection"...As Bill's favourite topic, " the proof of the pudding is in the eating". You have more chances to have a higher working drive from " tested" parents than the untested who may still come from good lines.
Hence the reason for the scale of values in France...It does not mean the others won't be any good, just that you are putting more odds in your favour by having titles? Yes, No??? Opinions? |
This is not what John was saying. What he said was that he couldn't understand why people had gundogs when they didn't intend to work them and I just explained why. We are not discussing the good and bad points of our own breed other than whether ownership should be restricted to people who shoot over them. Personally I would shoot the working people because they are the ones that restrict the gene pool, not the show people. A show breeder will consider a working dog if it is of good enough quality, a working breeder will never in a million years consider using a show dog unless it as FT qualification.
Yes, John, you are now a fully fledged member of the 'wind Annie up brigade', along with Jan and Bill
But let's be honest it isn't difficult to do so I don't really know why you all bother.
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doganjo
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| johnhod wrote: | True
By not even attempting to work your "gundog" how will you know if you are breeding poor quality in or not? Unless your dog retrieves how do you find out if it is hardmouthed, if you don't introduce it to shot how do you tell if it's gunshy. If it's never put onto a runner how do you know if it will track one (just a few of the many failings that a breeder could, perhaps unwittingly, be promoting in the gene pool) |
OK, a step further - if this were to be the criteria then you would be breeding hot gundogs in every breed - Yes? And how many of these would you sell to honest to goodness working homes? Every one of them? No, of course not. So on statistics at least half perhaps more are going to be in what you would call pet homes, and yes, the ones that are worked are also in pet homes, but I mean the others that won't get any work. And what do they do? They give a breed a bad reputation for being a b $%£^^%$£y nuisance in the home, wrecking it, constantly needing attention and walking. So by far the best method is a combination - yes breed for quality - but not for really HOT stock.
Annie
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Dave A
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A couple of interesting points have been raised, I think that Hot dogs are just as bad as unknow quantity untried and untested show dogs, At the moment i would suggest that very few of the current owners of hot dogs are able to fully train them hence some of the problems, like wise if you go down the pure show dog route we will end up with two types one that is pretty with little between its ears and one that will hunt the next county.
Thankfully we have a small number of dogs and out of a litter 2/3 may show/work, 2 may show only and the rest possibly work only with the odd pet for good measure, I have 3 Britts and this has happened in the litters i have been involved with, So we should still be able to look at a litter brother or sister to see which type or style or trate we like.
The importing of good working stock is always going to put the H back into hpr but we also need dogs that can be managed by the enthusiast and not just by the Expert (pro )
I have 2 that are easy to handle and shoot over and one that is on fire and very exciting but as they say in the horse world , Not a novice ride.
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Patricia
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"By not even attempting to work your "gundog" how will you know if you are breeding poor quality in or not?"
I was trying to answer that question!
To see if you are on the right track, you have to wait and see how the pups develop. Behave, hunt, retrieve, attitude in the home etc..
By mentionning a biddable nature, I meant not " hot" but an attitude " OK, you want me to do that and I will because I want to please" and not give the 2 fingers
Going onto imports...they don't all bring just the H back into HPR!!!!!
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Mugi
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I freely admit that I have previously had gundogs with no real intention of using them for what they are bred for. My weim was one of the few (weims that is) who possibly could have done a decent job but with a combination of ill-health and very negative attitudes from the local gundog club when I enquired as a novice about learning I was destined to never do anything. My WSS is hopeless  .
So the dog that got my hooked into working with dogs was Mugi and that was hardly a planned occurence, I never expected that getting a 10 yr old dog would change my life so much.
There are those of us out here that have a handicap. We were brought up in a town by townies who have never been shooting/hunting/actually done much in the countryside at all . I was always a bit of a misfit as I liked camping/hill walking etc from a young age, I then did something totally mad and joined the TA (boy did that shock my parents ) and in the 19 yrs I served I learned to shoot a variety of guns and was pretty good.
Sadly I had a 100 mph (combined impact ) car crash a few years back and I have been left with nerve damage in my neck and shoulder, I can't maintain a shotgun in position for long and even a minimal recoil hurts for days after and leaves me with pins and needles so I will never be able to shoot over my own dogs.
So don't knock people who get gundogs with no intention of tapping into their skills - the right dog may convert a few people. Sometimes it is more down to not having the right contacts - once you are 'in' the gundog world is great but it can be daunting if you are entering with no prior experience.
I know Mugi has changed my life for the better, I have a whole new hobby, great friends and Chase who will hopefully take me further (down the road to a nervous breakdown   ) into working with dogs. I can't see me not having a dog I can truly work with until I physically can't manage - tis a wonderful feeling being out with your dog.
At a show yesterday the comment I had for Mugi was - "I love your Brittany's muscle" he came 3rd in AV Special Veteran 10 yrs plus and his muscle is down to his work - something he will be out doing tomorrow. Chase too got a comment on his power and also the fact he was clearly dying to be doing something other than be in the ring. The judge was unsurprised to hear he is being trained to work .......
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Patricia
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I am also a " Townie" as I was brought up in Paris and my family actually does not even like dogs very much
But my great grand father was a Gundogs fanatic and that is all I can think of!
As teenager my Brittany was not worked.
But when we bought our first one in this country from Stan Smith, the condition was that we worked her. And Alan did, and I took het to obedience classes.
So, of course not, you can't find only that sort of home for however many puppies. As long as people know what they getting themselves in!
Nevertheless, what a disaster that some gundogs are uncapable of doing the basics of their job...Lost all instincts, even if untapped.
Even if unsused it should still be there.
I looked at the web site of the owner pf Tantale de Keranlouan( Ch breed 2006) who also have Cockers. And they look like the show version but also work.
Is it not what we should be doing?
And as breeders, is it not our responsability to select for at least a
minimum working ability???
The number of times, I am asked on the phone..I don't want a pup from just show bred parents
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johnhod
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I don't see the "Townie" arguement as being really relevant. I was born and brought up in Liverpol (like Sue I always enjoyed getting out into the country, walking, camping, etc) and I still live there now. Yes, it is more difficult to find suitable training ground and particularly gamey ground. I rarely shoot (even barn doors have to be oversized if I'm to hit them) but I make the effort to find work and training ground for my dogs, as I think I owe it to them to develop their natural skills, in return for the pleasure that they give me from being able to spend time with them.
I don't see that it is fair to keep a gundog away from game any more than I think it's fair to keep one of the giant breeds in a small city centre flat.
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kandjt
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Having started this thread I thought that I ought to put some bones on where I'm coming from and then share with you some of my concerns.
I started shooting when I was at primary school and have owned and trained gundogs for over thirty years. For me there is nothing more exciting or satisfying to see than a dog I've trained doing what it was bred to do. either a Brittany quartering, pointing and retreiving or a Labrdor making a 300m retrieve on a runner. I am quite content to see a dog working, a chance of a shot is a bonus.
I agree that you do not have to shoot to work your dogs and in the past I have taken my dogs beating, worked them with hawks and falcons and have handled my Brittany for other people to shoot over. This season I have been asked by a number of fellow syndicate members to work BB for them when we start rough shooting after Christmas after they have seen her work. Not everyone who works their dogs shoots, for instance, John has worked his dogs for many years, but I'm certain he hasn't personaaly shot for a significantly long time. However, if you have aspirations to enter either trials or tests then at the least your dog should have been shot over, or at the least introduced to gunshot and game.
As you may have gathered I have Labradors as well as Brittanys and I do not want to see a separation of show Brittanys and working Brittanys like we see in Labradors and other gundog breeds. With such small number and low gene pool such a split would be a disaster for both the 'show' Brittany and the 'working' Brittany.
My dogs represent a considerable investment for me, both financial and in time and as such I need to ensure that I find the right dog, with the right background to do the job I want them to do. When I buy any puppy I do a lot of research, I check pedigrees, scour the internet, read the shooting press and pester friends, even before I contact the breeders direct. I learnt the hard way that not to do this opens a whole can of worms. Even with the larger population of working Labradors this is a difficult and time consuming task, with Brittanys it is considerably more difficult. Patricia rightly says that this is case of selection and I want a dog that meets all of my requirements and not just some. If I want to breed form my bitch then this becomes even more of a minefield as genetic, health and temperament need to be taken into account.
If the Brittany in this country is allowed to polarise into show and working lines it will be a very sad day for the breed and can, in my opinion, only lead to serious problems in the future. I came to the conclusion some time ago that there needs to be some give and take on both sides. 'Working' owners like myself need to get involved in the show side. I know that I do not show BB, but I have tried but she hated every second and I'm sure that you have all had the experience of trying to get a p****d off Brittany to do anything, so I gave up as a bad job. When I get my next Brittany I will certainly try again. Conversely 'show' owners need to experience or at the least understand what owners like myself want from our Brittanys.
If I have offended anyone I am sorry, but I am concerned at where the breed is going and the consequences that implies.
Keith
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Patricia
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I understand what you are saying Keith...And I respect all the time and questions you have about the breed. Like for the "livre d'elevage" in France, the background, the field trial chs in the pedigrees, all the different titles etc...
May I ask how you think we can keep away from a split into working/ show Brittany??? I have my ideas but it is always interesting to hear other's.
If like in their country of origin you needed qualifications in both sides, would we get as many people showing Brittanys?
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guy
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I have to say I think the present system is working really rather well.
When it comes to taking samples of a product for quality assurance standards one needs a rule of thumb to determine the number to sample to make a valid assumption about the whole. The number to measure is often the square root of the total to be sampled
Let us use the oft suggested figure of extant Brittanys root 2 of this is 54. Now I bet I could think of at least thirty Brittanys I have heard of who work to some degree or other - by work I am going to say as a gundog doing as they are bid. Not just running around free hunting. I don't exclude those that start with the best intentions and get carried away with their endeavours and bugger off. With a little help I am sure we could come up with the 54.
If one then applies the same rule to sample those dogs that work to find a number to test for high levels of ability in the field; ie provable at Ft level then the square root of 54 is a bit over seven. LAst year there were eight Brittanys who their handlers considered good enough to enter Field Trials.
I therefore put it to you that there is sufficient quality in the breed that can be proved capable to ensure the overall working ability is not being 'lost'.
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Patricia
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Sorry but I am not in " root" system. I am pleased you are optimistic!
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eddieh
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| johnhod wrote: | I don't see the "Townie" arguement as being really relevant. I was born and brought up in Liverpol (like Sue I always enjoyed getting out into the country, walking, camping, etc) and I still live there now. Yes, it is more difficult to find suitable training ground and particularly gamey ground. I rarely shoot (even barn doors have to be oversized if I'm to hit them) but I make the effort to find work and training ground for my dogs, as I think I owe it to them to develop their natural skills, in return for the pleasure that they give me from being able to spend time with them.
I don't see that it is fair to keep a gundog away from game any more than I think it's fair to keep one of the giant breeds in a small city centre flat. |
I don't have a problem with the desire to keep the instinct and ability to hunt in the breed but do think that Sue's point about living in a town can, but not necessarily, be more relevant than you think John.
I currently live in a town, but if you google my postcode you will see that I live a few hundred yards away from farmland. Had I grown up here I would almost certainly rubbed shoulders with the children of farmers and landowners. Later in life I would have drank with them.
Google this postcode -IG11 0QX- and you will find a completely different situation. Yes, there is land near the river (there was a lot more when I was a boy and we spent a lot of our time there), and there were partridge there if nothing else, but the nearest I ever got to seeing anybody hunting or shooting was bumping into Paddy McKevilly sitting on the remains of the aa gun emplacements , shooting beetles with a .22 air rifle. In all the time I lived there, I never once came into contact with anybody who hunted (apart from a bloke down the road who had three ferrets).
Not only were we geographically isolated from hunting and shooting, but, (probably more importantly) the idea of that sort of lifestyle just didn't occur to anybody. I suppose we were culturally (socially?) isolated from it as well. I suppose it was something posh people did
There is a lot of grey between the black and white of these two extremes.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were to say that your background was similar to mine. But something drew you down a path to a world that obviously gives you a lot of pleasure. It didn't happen to me or anybody I grew up with and I don't know of anybody from my past, who still lives in Barking, who has discovered that world but I intend to make an attempt to join you.  It may be a fleeting or occasional visit though.
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doganjo
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| Quote: | | If one then applies the same rule to sample those dogs that work |
Can this theory be applied to showing? I cannot see the problem in our breed that you all seem to be getting concerned about. By my reckoning there are something in the order of about 100 to 120 Brittanys being shown regularly in the UK, and I think that is about 3% of the approximate total living dogs. Not only that a number of these are also actively worked - John's, Guy's, John A's, Sue's, Patricia's That's maybe 20 or so between them alone, and there's probably many more. So that means the majority of Brittanys here are either worked or are pets - and how many are just pets do you think, without doing any work at all? I doubt if there are many! They aren't exactly a pet breed are they? I certainly don't sell them as just pets. So using basic logic or maybe just a rough educated guess, I would say about 80% of Brittanys in the UK are worked - problem? I don't think so!
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johnhod
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So there are about 4000 Brittanys in the UK, 3200 of which are worked and yet many people who shoot have never seen one. Interesting statistics
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kandjt
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As a Labrador owner for over 30 years I have become increasingly aware that the schism between show and working has widened, something that I believe is to the detriment to both. I do not think that I have ever stated that there is a problem with the breed, but I hope I have expressed my concern that the Brittany does not go the way of the Labrador. I am not anti-show nor am I anti-working, but I am pro-Brittany. It has taken me a while but I believe that the Brittany is not a working breed nor a show breed, it should be an amalgam of the two. Work should balance show and vice versa, which is what I understand underlines the Brittany as a dual dog.
My concerns have been based purely on my own perceptions formed over the last two years. Thank you Guy and Annie for responding and giving me some figures to digest and I appreciate your views. I hope you will allow me to use these figure to perhaps illustrate my concerns.
1. If there are 3000 Brittanys currently in the country and say 150 are being shown, then only 5% of the population have been before a judge. If we cut the population down to 1500 to allow for age etc this still only brings the figure up to 10%. Therefore, a significant proportion of the breed have effectively not had their conformation checked. If the majority of Brittanys work then there is an obvious inbalance in favour of working Brittannys.
2. Even if we take the two figures given; 54 for working and 100-120 for showing there is again a significant difference, this time towards showing.
3. If as implied, there are two tiers of working, ie., working and trials, are there two tiers of showing? showing and Crufts? Do the numbers of competing in both trials and Crufts balance? Put another way do we have the same number of Field Trial Champions as we have Show Champions?
I have not set out to cause problems or to score points and if I have upset or offended anyone I can assure you this was not deliberate and I profusely apologise.
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Patricia
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"I would say about 80% of Brittanys in the UK are worked - problem? I don't think so!"
How do you come with such figures? My estimation is: a lot are with Falconers who don't give a monkeys about retrieving ability or the club, and an awful lot are pets.( nothing wrong with that witht he right management) Then the rough shooting, but according to demands I have had over many years, thre are still less than pets and Falconers. Let's face it many would stick to to other gundogs or the more popular GSP...
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doganjo
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| johnhod wrote: | | So there are about 4000 Brittanys in the UK, 3200 of which are worked and yet many people who shoot have never seen one. Interesting statistics |
By working I would include falconry - perhaps you don't? That is by far the most popular ownership for our breed. I know personally of about 30 Brittanys being used by falconers.
Annie
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johnhod
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Obviously falconry counts as working, thoguh I have the same reservations as Patricia about the of retrieving ability being lost (just be cause it's not needed). I'd just be wary of suggesting that there are 3200 working Brittanys around
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Patricia
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That is another point: what do you call working? really...
Just hunting and pointing does not " cut" it for me. It is better than nothing for the dog, but if you knew over my many many years of enquiries the remark I get:" I am not bothered about the retrieving, as a matter of fact, I 'd rather they did not with the birds." one like it only last night.
Is that good for the breed if such dogs are untested in that field and bred from? Or will Mr Tomlinson be right in his comments???
You get a few who want to shoot and fly hawks but it is a minority.
Then there are the many " active" pet enquiries:
By the way, I am not trying to be difficult, just the way it comes across to me.
People will do what they like, it is a free country...well, not sure for how much longer with the effects of that blasted BBC program.
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doganjo
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| Patricia wrote: | "I would say about 80% of Brittanys in the UK are worked - problem? I don't think so!"
How do you come with such figures? My estimation is: a lot are with Falconers who don't give a monkeys about retrieving ability or the club, and an awful lot are pets.( nothing wrong with that witht he right management) Then the rough shooting, but according to demands I have had over many years, thre are still less than pets and Falconers. Let's face it many would stick to to other gundogs or the more popular GSP... |
I think this shows an elitist society
Falconry is not working - huh?
If I bred Brittanys and could only sell to pet homes I would stop breeding. I have already given my own breeding figures - about 30 bred, about 3 or 4 pets only homes, the rest falconry or shooting dogs, in some cases both. I repeat the Brittany is not classed as a suitable pet dog so the majority of the 3500 in the UK MUST be working. WE weould be getting an awful lot more on rescue if they were. They certainly aren't being shown which I thought was the whole point of this discussion?
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Mugi
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To me the pertinent point is what we class as work.
To my mind I don't work my Brittany - we share a hobby that allows him to use some of his natural talent in a way that suits his age and yes we spend two days a week working on a driven shoot. But Mugi is unable to extend his talents too far as he has to work the drives according to where the guns are as opposed to where the wind and scent may take him. He does point and we have to move on with the line so I acknowledge his point then move him on (poor old man), he also does some retrieves but we certainly aren't using his skills as an HPR. So it is a compromise....
Now Chase I hope to be able to work in a manner more befitting his heritage but as I don't shoot myself this won't be easy. I want to find ways of ensuring he does the whole package - Hunt it, Point it and Retrieve it..................anyone want to shoot over my dog .
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doganjo
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Exactly my sentiments. I feel too much emphasis is put on the Brittany having to be 'worked' meaning shot over 3 months of the year? What does it do the rest of the time! Falconers have their dogs working for a good bit more of the year than shooters. What puts purists off them is that they don't ask their dogs to retrieve, however, the ones I sold puppies to do, as they shoot as well as having birds of prey.
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Patricia
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Working could endorse a whole " package" of tasks. In Switzerland, they even use them as avalanche dogs.
Yes, Falconry is work, so is Spring Pointing etc...and Working tests though they don't involve game.
The only and final point I wanted to make is that this breed was developped as a rough shooting dog, able to bring back what is shot.
Ok not to use the dog for just that, but...when you breed, make sure you use a dog or bitch that retains that instinct. Or...we will have to agree with the comments I heard at the game fair ( and made me cross) that the Brittany is an HP without the " R" 
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Does that mean you would deprive a dog of a good home just because they would not 'work' it Annie?
Do you not think there are other ways to 'work' a dog apart from shooting over it? After all your dogs don't get shot over so why should you say what other people should do? Seems like a case of 'don't do what I do, do as I tell you.
Dogs can, and do, work in other disciplines ie; obedience, agility, search and rescue to name but a few. If someone has a dog and competes in obedience, for example, the dog is working all through the year not just for 3 months during the shooting season. What is wrong with that? After all these little dogs are supposed to be 'versatile' and can adapt to most things.
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The Plum
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A really good topic and many times I have felt my typing finger (right index ) twitch with the urge to join in !
I can tell you what people do - or should do - with their gundogs outside of the three months Five and a half months surely of the shooting season. .............They train them 
The shooting season starts on the glorious 12th on the grouse and ,if I remember correctly ,does not end until February 1st. Thought you were an accountant Annie - how does that work out to 3 months ?
In addition to this there is about a month of spring grouse counts done each year and about a month, maybe more of grouse counts done prior to the shooting season starting. That doesn't leave much of the year "unworked" does it ?
Back when I could still shoot and traipse over the hills my year with my Brittany went a bit like this.
JAN to Feb 1st. --- Roughshooting , working my dogs for estate clients and picking up at shoots.
Feb - rabbit control - she pointed them - I potted them with an air rifle.
March - The same but with grouse counts added.
April - same again for the first week then rabbit control only.
May - rabbit control and decoying woodpigeons.
June - same again
July - same again but with grouse counts added
Aug - Grouse counts - then working her for estate clients on the grouse moors.
Sept. - Same again but working on partridge too for estates clients
Oct. - Pheasant shooting added to the partridge for clients and rough shooting on my own ground for snipe, partridge, pheasant , hares and rabbits with occasional grouse and blackgame thrown in just to keep things interesting. Also decoying the thousands of pinkfoot and greylag geese. A decent Brittany can manage even a lightly pricked greylag goose. Also picking up on various estates.
Nov. Much the same but usually minus the partridge.
Dec. - the same but with occasional days out with falconers and with various hawks.
Back to January and more of the same.
On top of this I also found time to train my dogs !!!
A working H.P.R. of any breed can have a very full life. It's up to the owner how full a dogs life can be........................
I too was brought up in a town centre and had no contacts whatsoever in the shooting world - I made my own luck.
I really don't care if folk show their dogs or not, that's up to them, but GUNDOG is a title that has to be earned, just being born from gundogs is not enough to earn any dog of any breed that title.
Bill T.
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doganjo
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| Ghilliegumdrop wrote: | Does that mean you would deprive a dog of a good home just because they would not 'work' it Annie?
Do you not think there are other ways to 'work' a dog apart from shooting over it? After all your dogs don't get shot over so why should you say what other people should do? Seems like a case of 'don't do what I do, do as I tell you.
Dogs can, and do, work in other disciplines ie; obedience, agility, search and rescue to name but a few. If someone has a dog and competes in obedience, for example, the dog is working all through the year not just for 3 months during the shooting season. What is wrong with that? After all these little dogs are supposed to be 'versatile' and can adapt to most things. |
You have misread what I said. I said I have only rarely sold puppies to pet only homes. Three I think, in 25 years of owning this breed. I also said if I could only sell to pet homes I'd stop breeding. I stand by those statements. I sell my pups to what I consider to be the best homes - as far as I am concerned if the new owners intend to do agility, obedience or anything else that will suffice to keep their brains as well as their bodies fit I feel I am doing my job as a good breeder. And to put the record straight, Freckles and Allez have both been shot over, Freckles had a scare (Ex FT Sec shot a dummy launcher near her at a TAN when she was 10 months old) so is now technically gun-shy although if the gun is close she is fine strangely enough - perhaps because she can see where the noise is coming from, who knows? Hester (my GWP) has been shot over too - using an air rifle with a silencer as she is also gun-shy - no other reason than being over sensitive to noise. Belle is the only one of my dogs that hasn't been shot over and with a fair wind we may change that soon. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, faes are wurrysome"
Annie
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The Plum
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Shotover is not a term applied to dummy launchers, starting pistols or air rifles being fired near to a dog. It means to take a dog shooting for game with the dog working to put that game in the bag. It can be applied to any of the gundog breeds but if a dog hasn't worked on game then it hasn't been shotover.
Only working a dog on game will show if that dog has the attributes needed for breeding other gundogs. Other than that the breeding is depending on luck, hope and wishful thinking just a bit too much I.M.O.
Unfortunately many of the qualities of a good working dog are not visible to the eye. They happen inside the dogs head and the only way to "see" them is to actually work the dog on game while looking to see if the dog has sufficient of those qualities. No amount of training with dummies, starting pistols etc. will prove a dog is a gundog - they are all just in between stages on the road to making one.
Bill T.
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The Plum
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I have been very puzzled by the references to two to three thousand Brittanies being "worked" in this country. I do consider falconry to be work but it isn't gundog work and I would not buy a pup from a falconer no matter how good it was at hunting and pointing - I'd want to know the dog was shotover, wasn't gunshy , liked retrieving and was soft mouthed.
Put it the other way round - would you think a dog was a hunt-point- retriever if all it ever did was retrieve and was useless or unproven as a hunter- pointer ? This is the position with many falconers dogs except that many only hunt and point.
Where are all these "working Brits ?" In well over twenty years the only brits I have seen out shooting in any of its various forms have been my own ! I have seen a few at field trials but that's it !
I think many puppy buyers say they will take the dog shooting but once they have the pups, they do not. There isn't an awful lot that a brittany breeder can do about this state of affairs but I do have one suggestion.
Train your dog well enough to gain field trial awards then breed from it. Working gundog folk look for proven work bred gundogs. Prove your dog in the field and the pups will have a far better chance of going to people who will work them - you will probably have a queue of would be buyers- genuine shooting buyers - waiting for the pups as they pop out of the bitch !
Bill T.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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| Quote: | | I have been very puzzled by the references to two to three thousand Brittanies being "worked" in this country. I do consider falconry to be work but it isn't gundog work and I would not buy a pup from a falconer no matter how good it was at hunting and pointing - I'd want to know the dog was shotover, wasn't gunshy , liked retrieving and was soft mouthed |
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Well, I got Merlin from a falconer Bill and he is not gunshy [I took him out and sat him behind one of the guns] he likes retrieving and, so far, he is soft mouthed, what he will be like when he is out retrieving fresh game is another matter  But we shall see
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doganjo
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| Quote: | | Shotover is not a term applied to dummy launchers |
Again you are misreading my post - I didn't say dummy launchers were being shot over. What I said was that Freckles had a scare with one when she was young, but she has been shot over a good few times since, although not recently, and I have no need nor wish to put her through it again. Simon took her and Flash out on a number of occasions with a real gun and she retrieved real rabbits and real pheasants. But on a few occasions when Simon shot what she had flushed when she was far away from him, she got frightened and ran to be beside him. Allez has been shot over a couple of times now and will be again next weekend. I am hoping that Donald will start training Belle and we can get her out too. We will never get Hester out again, but it doesn't matter as she is nearly 12. Incidentally, I DO know some stuff about shooting, I'm not a complete duffer
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The Plum
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I don't think I misread your post Annie, I read what you wrote. No mention was made of dogs retrieving any game shot . If a dog is frightened by gunfire I would have to say it is gunshy or at least gun nervous, to call it anything else is splitting hairs a bit surely ?
Bill T.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Where are you next weekend Annie.......are you going beating and picking up How did he/you get on the last time you went
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doganjo
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I'll tell you after we've been.
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eddieh
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To be fair, Annie never equated "shot over" with the use of dummy launchers.
Her words were | doganjo wrote: | | And to put the record straight, Freckles and Allez have both been shot over, Freckles had a scare (Ex FT Sec shot a dummy launcher near her at a TAN when she was 10 months old) so is now technically gun-shy |
which I read as "Freckles and Allez have both been shot over,BUT Freckles had a scare (Ex FT Sec shot a dummy launcher near her at a TAN when she was 10 months old) so is now technically gun-shy.
Also, I never said that my background led to a lack of opportunity to learn about working gundogs. What I was trying to say was that where I come from, working of gundogs was not on anybody's radar. It did not occur to anybody to find out how to train a gundog to work. It was not in our culture. This can only be contested by anybody who lived in my community at that time. Only one person in the club comes near afaik and that is not quite near enough.
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doganjo
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Thank you Eddie, good to see at least ONE person reads before they try to shoot people down. (pun intended)
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Lin Dyke
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There is one dog on this forum that truly shows the true potential of this breed. He had been a pet for the first ten years of his life, a very well trained and loved pet. Circumstances changed and he needed a new home. He found himself in the care of a very special person who took the time to find out what this wonderful breed is all about and gave him the chance to do what he was born for. This led to a pup who is doing very well in both working and showing, as he has also done.
Our young rescue is from a Falconry line (half brother to Jan's Merlin.) He just wants to retrieve anything and everything, points the birds in the garden and when out and about hunts like mad and points, as does our other boy and before them the "Grand Meister" Josh.
Those of us who do not have the good fortune to truly work our Brittanys can at least give them the chance to show they know what they can do at the TAN and other training events.
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eddieh
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Could I suggest that , before anyone says "I lived in a town" that they look at a map of the Midlands and East Anglia. Consider an ellipse which includes Peterborough, Leicester, Melton Mowbray and Corby. This will give an idea of the size of the built up area of London.
Towns differ! In size and otherwise!
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Lin Dyke
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Having grown up in West Sussex and lived not far from Peterborough (first husband was in the RAF) and also lived in Leicestershire, I think I know what Eddie means. A friend of mine lived in the "smallest town" then moved to the "largest village". All these areas have a hunting, shooting, fishing culture.
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kandjt
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There have been some very interesting posts over the past few days which could have, I believe, important implications for our breed. What has struck me is that often disagreements are caused by misunderstanding and imprecise communication as much as, if not more than, deep seated convictions. If nothing else this topic has started discussions and the more we communicate, the more we begin to understand each other. We might not agree, but hopefully we can see each others point of view without dismissing it out of hand. To that end I would like to make a few comments and askk a few question so that this dialogue miight continue. They are not in any particular order of importance, but just as they enter my head.
As it happens I know Peterborough very well, my wife's family hails from Whittlesey and I spent ten years living and working in Peterborough. I was for a number of years a member and eventually secretary of the now defunct Peterborough Gundog Society. When I moved to the Wirral it was a shock to find that I couldn't find training land and shooting on my doorstop, rather than just down the road as it was in Peterborough. It is possible to find land in urban areas, sometimes in the most unlikely places, if you keep your eyes open and are not afraid to ask. By the way the one thing I don't miss about Peterborough is the stink from the sugar beet factory, if its still there you have my sympathy!
A new job meant that my hobbies of shooting, fishing and gundogs were effectively redundant, effectively limited to holidays and the very, very occasional invitation. Although my dogs were no longer actively working I still continued their training. It was noticeable that if I couldn't train them for various reasons their behaviour and condition altered even though they still received their usal exercise. This was particularly noticeable in my Brittanys, has anyone experienced this?
It appears to me that a common misconception is that a working gudog is or should be a field trial dog. Thanks to Bill's calendar we can all see the versatility of a HPR gundog and think that there is probably more that could be added. Is there there a need to educate people about the work that a Brittany is capable of? I know that there have been demonstrations of various aspects at Le Weekend, but they can only scratch the surface. Could the Club/owners put on taster days/sessions showing the Brittany working in the field ie roughshooting, falconry etc?
I can understand the need for field trials, but have long thought that there is a need for a hierarchy of tests at levels below them. For various reasons I am not a fan of working tests, especially for HPRs, although I can see some merit in ones that use cold game. The BCGB do put on the TAN and a Spring Pointing Test, but is there a need for others that would help prepare the dog and the handler for Field Trials?
I know that this has been discussed on another thread, but retrieving has cropped up here as well and I would like to give my take on why the retrieving instinct is very important to me. As a live game shooter I have respect for my quarry and also a responsibility to ensure that they do not suffer unneccesarily, thus a wounded bird has to be found as quickly as possible. A good, well-trained dog is the most effective way of doing this. There is also a financial consideration each pheasant costs around £40 each to rear and feed, for instance my small shoot has spent £2500 on feed already this season. Each bird lost is money down the drain. Finally, as my Brittanys are primarily used for roughshooting and often I may only get one shot, a lost bird is a lost Sunday dinner. So for me the retrieve is not an optional extra, it is the culmination of the HPR experience.
Keith
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The Plum
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A good post Keith. I disagreed only with a couple of small parts of it
I have never lived in the huge sprawl of the midlands but I did live in the centre of Edinburgh. Getting into the country involved a bus journey since I did not then own a car. My dog and any training gear needed also went by bus. Same thing on the way home. I had labradors then and still managed to train them well enough to win trials with. If you have the determination to do it , you will do it, if not you will live on wishes.
The part I disagreed on Keith was the need for in between stage "tests."
If any kind of K.C. recognition was given to a test of any kind then there are people who would use that slip of paper as a means of boosting their puppy sales. No matter if a test uses cold game or dummies it is still just a test. Only real game on real shooting days can decide upon a gundogs real value both as a gundog and as a potential sire or dam of future gundogs.
Trials aren't perfect but at least they take place with game being found ,shot and retrieved.
I have taken part in cold game tests , I've judged them too. I don't like them. I now don't send my dogs for birds that other dogs have had in their mouths. The other dog may have been hard mouthed and I'd be left wondering ,"Did my dog do that ?" Even if no other dog that day had retrieved the bird , what about the dog that retrieved it when it was first shot ?
I think using cold game could lead to problems that a dog didn't have before. A dogs nose is easily capable of telling the difference between a fresh,untouched by other dog or human hand bird and the falling to pieces stinking old things often used in cold game tests - even I can smell them ! I believe Guy has a photo of a duck used in a cold game test - perhaps he would be kind enough to show it ?
I have seen trial winning labs refuse to pick such birds - and I don't blame them ! I have also seen (twice) dogs in H.P.R. trials that have won novice trials and are competing in the blind over the water in the next trials up the ladder, find the cold game and eat it !!!
Only fresh shot game can give a clear picture of a dogs behaviour.
Bill T.
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kandjt
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Thanks for the comments Bill, I actually don't disagree with any of them, perhaps I need to qualify my comments. When I organised Cold Game tests I tried to ensure that each dog had a fresh bird for each retrieve. Because of this would only run one such test a year and I had a chest freezer solely to store the game. Luckily the Fens are fantastic for pigeon shooting and gamekeeper friends were very helpful.
I didn't envisage the Kennel Club being involved with the inbetween tests for the very reasons you give. The Brittany Club run the TAN and the SP test that are not under KC authority and wondered if there was a way these could be adapted or extended to help competitors gently into Trials. Through the years I've seen dogs at novice trials who obviously had little or no experience of game never mind retrieved one. Hope thats a bit clearer?
Keith
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doganjo
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Thank you, Keith, and Bill. Both very interesting posts. However, I don't think that additional test awards won by my dogs between the TAN and Field Trials levels would have made the slightest bit of differenece to the sales of any puppies I've bred, whether they were authorised KC events or not. Most of the serious Brittany breeders ( I don't mean the one-off ones, or perhaps even non-club member ones because I don't know any of those) have waiting lists for puppies, and if anything I suppose acquiring additional titles might just increase the length of the list. But there are only a finite number of pups in any litter so last time I had a waiting list of 6 plus myself, and there were only 3 pups. 7 into 3 won't go
So I would certainly endorse additonal events being set up, and if I can get some game accumulated and find some ground I'll try and get something arranged for after the season ends. I think it is too big a step to go straight into trials, I have never tried but I remember presuading John to enter a few that by today's standards Gigi had not been trained for. Yet she got to the water on three out of 7 trials (might have been more, can't remember now). John had never worked a dog let alone trialled one and I was very naive on what was required but bless his soul he went out and did it for me. I guess Gigi must have been just one of these good dogs - or lucky Which is another subjuect altogether. If Guy and John are watching this thread they must be pulling their hair out because we are no longer discussing either conformation or Shooting times
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The Plum
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| doganjo wrote: | | I think it is too big a step to go straight into trials, |
Why do you think that Annie ? Everyone has the same chance to do well in a trial. Luck does play a part but if your dog is good enough it will eventually win. There is no requirement to win first time out, you can get "on the job training " of the very best kind - bitter experience ! I got chucked out of my first ever retriever trial and I got chucked out of my first ever H.P.R. trial. I learned from my mistakes and both of those dogs eventually won trials.
At present I have been taking a look at spaniel trials. If Charlie ever gets the kind of work he needs on sufficient rabbits then I may run him in a spaniel trial. I do not expect to win but I do expect to learn how to win.
You just do the work, then do it again then enter the trial and do your best.
Bill T.
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guy
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Bill - I will try and find that 'duck'
Some very interesting points.
A rough shooting dog and a field trial dog are not always the same. I believe there is a saying that goes along the lines of 'the best way to spoil a trained dog is to take it shooting'.
Interim tests. I think we have lost sight of the original reason for 'working tests' and that was to provide a means of measuring the progress of training outside the season. Pressure of numbers has now made it a goal in its own right - and nothing wrong with that; just not my bag. For me the full monty is the retrieve to hand of fresh shot game. The SGWC although run at the end of a FT and involves the full HPR has none of the adrenaline associated with running in a FT.
Whilst I have said I think the current set up proves Brittanys are still capable I feel I need to elaborate that point. I believe you can still 'scratch' most Brittanys and find a capable dog under the skin. But this is a 'reactive approach' rather than a 'proactive' one. I don't get the impression breeders are choosing their stock on the basis of 'ability'. Indeed I fail to see how they could as there is no way of recording 'ability'. All that is happening is that there is a mixing of latent talent rather than a considered selection for talent
Perhaps if the dual purpose breed clubs only promoted links to kennels with a track record in the field and in the ring then the unhealthy domination of one specialty over another would not get started.
A final thought - the Brittany was developed as a gundog that had to have a good personality and be a house dog for the rest of the year - let's not loose sight of that part of it's character.
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | I don't get the impression breeders are choosing their stock on the basis of 'ability'. |
I await Patricia's reply to this. I'm sure she'll argue that the dogs she imports are chosen for their ability.
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guy
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Patricia,
Barbara Anderson
Steve Wright
Alithea Lockie
Joanne Hague
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Dave A
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don't forget yourself Guy, Haven't you got a young German Lady.
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guy
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Dave - i am not raising puppies yet. But i am doing my homework on lines and ability. When I do let herself have a litter (probably not until next Christmas at the earliest) I am intending to run them so second owners can have a very good idea of how they perform.
Having had two rehomes and a puppy at nine months i am convinced you don't need to have a pup at an early age to develop a deep relationship with the dog.
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Dave A
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Good I will look forward to that, And i would agree my first britt was 2 yrs when i got her ( A kind of rescue ) and when she realised she wasn't going to be passed on again, She settled in and has been a very reliable working dog ever since ( now nearly 11 yrs )
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guy
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as a PS to an earlier post - to avoid any confusion from a swift reading, I did say 'the dual purpose breed clubs' - plural and general, not ours in particular.
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kandjt
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I think that all gundog breeds would do well to implement this, not only the dual purpose breeds. I have been impressed with the aims of the Working Clumber Spaniel Society's aims:
| Quote: | To promote and encourage training and use of the breed
To restore the breed's physical soundness and functional qualities
To encourage owners to breed selectively from sound, work-proven specimens
To hold educational and competitive working events
To resist moves to alter the breed's type which may damage its utility |
This approach is obviously bearing fruit, in the past 10 shooting seasons, 11 different dogs have won field trials. This compares with only one in the previous 84 seasons. Added to this the average hip score of work bred Clumbers is 12, but for show bred the average is 55!
Certainly food for thought
Keith
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The Plum
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Hi Keith ,are the work bred Clumbers much smaller and lighter in weight/type than the showbred and can you tell me if Clumbers are managing to win trials against springers and cockers ?
My personal feeling is that a really good dog can win against any competition. I don't think making up a Clumber for example or a Brittany to Field Trial Champion status should happen unless the dog has beaten all comers on the day.
I am aware that Clumbers are a greatly improved breed but do they do their trial winning only among the spaniel breeds other than cockers and springers ? This is a breed I like having seen my first working ones about 30 years ago. I think Princess Annes dog trainer or gamekeeper trained them ?
Bill T.
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kandjt
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Hi Bill, as far as I'm aware a Clumber hasn't been made up to FT Ch, most of their wins have been in minor breed spaniel trials. I think shear numbers are against them, in 2003 only 134 Clumbers were registered compared to 12000 ESS and 13000 cockers. The weight problem is something the working Clumber people are upset about, the Kennel Club have raised the recommended weight in the breed standard to 80lbs at the behest of the show people, working dogs are about 20 to 30 lbs lighter!
I saw a Clumber working on a shoot last season and was impressed, although he was slower than the Springers and Cockers he covered every inch of ground really thoroughly. I did some beating last year whilst I was on the waiting list for the syndicate I'm now in, and enjoyed it so much I'll probably do more next year. If I do I would seriously consider a Clumber, a slower dog would make a nice change from my Brittanys and Trial bred labradors.
The Working Clumber Spaniel Society has a nice website with pictures and videos showing working Clumbers in action.
Keith
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Patricia
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I will try to answer John...and other things indirectly.
Bill is wanting a dog from proven parents..no problems here. I like to go back further really and that is where the breeding side comes in as well as ascendants's results. When I look on the " livre d'elevage" I look at te trial results, how consistant etc...This already gives me a picture of what I am looking for when importing. Often I will have some idea of what the partents look like, but that is not enough. And not only that, but health, looks etc...
I will now give you an exemple of how difficult this all is: Adding to the gene pool is no bad thing either.
I had decided to buy in a good male from proven working stock- and tailless- and the best I could find, both parents with field awards, recommended breeder, etc etc...
I went to see my puppy in France, he is retrieving from land and water, pointing etc etc... but...he won't make size.
Therefore he won't be coming over as I want to have a gundog capable of working sugar beet, carrying hares and geese if need be.
My observation is there are many small bitches being bred from ending up in weedy and fine animals making it difficult to fulfill their job.
When they say" construite en lice- brood bitch - that is for a good reason.
So, for me ( like many) the whole package and nothing else. 
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The Plum
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I don't know if this still holds true but it used to be case that it was the larger brits that did well in trials. I have met Rory Majors bitch and she's a big girl too. I prefer the larger sized Brits myself for working.
Bill T.
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The Plum
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Keith, can a spaniel winning minor breed trials never make F.T. CH. ? Are there no Open trials for the so called Minor breeds ?
The K.C. is being utterly ridiculous and showing their complete ignorance of a dogs working requirements by making the Clumbers weight up to 80 pounds ! What a bunch of know nothing numpties but that's what happens when show folk rule the roost. It is obvious that they are not trying to seriously work their dogs !
Even a well built trialing male labrador would be unlikely to weigh 80 pounds. Even Buck my G.S.P. falls short of that weight !
Words fail me to describe the stupidity of folk who think a dog of that weight and build could be a worthwhile working gundog .
Bill T.
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Mugi
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I will never forget the day I was told my WSS was too thin and muscled at a show. He was lean and powerful and capable of doing a days work (well if he weren't gunshy ). It was not a positive comment btw!
When Mugi was recently shown at an Open Show in AV Special Veteran 10+ where he came third I was given the other attitude by a judge who likes working dogs. Her comment as she came down the line was "I do like the muscle on your Brittany".
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Liz
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The trouble is that some show judges don't recognise muscle if they see it! I remember one judge going over my Wei bitch and being told she was very lumpy - the woman had obviously never felt a well muscled up dog before
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doganjo
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And I cannot be doing with judges and vets who tell Brittany owners their dogs are fat. For goodness sake, they are well ribbed, strong boned, well muscled, and have rounded bums - they aren't flippin' fat! (well the occasional one is from time to time I suppose - if he gets too many treats for being a GOOOOD boy)
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highclare
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Hi,
Going back to Clumber Spaniels. Clumbers, WSS, Sussex Spaniels and Field Spaniels are all classed as minor breeds and there for can not run against ESS and Cockers. The minor spaniels can't run in an open field trial so can't become a FTCH's.
I know some working Clumbers spaniels that would give any ESS or Cocker a run for there money but can't prove it.
That is a KC rule not the breed clubs rule. As for the size of the clumber they are not smaller, if anything they are taller but they are not so heavy and are much fitter than the show Clumber.
Gill and the Mabeleen
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kandjt
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Thanks for that Gill, I wasn't sure about the situation and rather fudged my answer to Bill. The Clumber I saw would certainly have held his own with Springers and Cockers. I'm still tempted but hopefully I'll be adding another Brittany to the pack next year. The situation over the trailing of spaniel minor breeds is, I think, fairly indicative of the Kennel Club's understanding, or rather lack of understanding, of the working gundog. Incidently, there has been a number of articles in shooting publications expressing anger at the KC's desire to obtain legal standing to enforce their Accredited Breeding Scheme and the implications it has on working kennels. Over the years there has been rumblings of the working gundog world breaking away from the KC and I've already read one article that has reopened this discussion. With the KC reeling from the fallout of the BBC programme and their stand on the ABS I'm sure this issue is sure to gain momentum.
Keith
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The Plum
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Keith if anyone within the K.C. wants to tell me or the vast majority of working gundog folk I know what size or shape a working dog must be then the K.C. will very quickly lose the revenues from the work only people. It would be a bit like folk who only play blow football telling real footballers how to play the game !
I hope the Clumbers and the other minor spaniel breeds continue to make progress and do well in the field. I don't think the K.C. wants them to do well though - an 80lb. weight Clumber is an obscenity.
Bill T.
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johnhod
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I, for one, am not sure that the KC should shoulder the full blame for 80 lb Clumbers. Isn't the breed standard put forward by the breed club for acceptance by the KC?
I never thought I'd see myself going to the support of the money grubbing monopoly, but fair's fair
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