Status of the American Brittany in the UK?

kandjt · Status of the American Brittany in the UK?

Some of the posts in a couple of recent threads have got, as Hercule Poirot would say, the little grey cells working. I wondered what exactly was the Kennel Club's stance on the American Brittany?
I know that Brittanys from Europe have been regularly imported from France, Belgium and Germany and Des O'Neil was considering one from Spain. In the early 80's I met a couple who had imported American Brittanys from the US and I believe that Bill T's Vicky was half American so some must have entered the UK at some time.

I've looked on the KC website but can't find anything on there. If like other breeds an American Brittany was brought over to show at Crufts would it be entered in the Brittany classes? Likewise if one was imported now would it be registered as an American Brittany or a Brittany? I know next to nothing about the workings of the KC other than to pay my money to change data on their database.

Keith

doganjo

Officially there is no such breed as the American Brittany (it needs to be said to be different by the CEB for that to happen, I believe) so the KC does not recognise anything other than the Brittany as is laid down in the UK Breed Standard, which is taken from the French FCI one, albeit in less detail in order to conform to the KC pattern for standards)

An American Type Brittany was shown under me at Crufts in 2007. It did not fully fit our breed standard in my eyes so was placed fifth out of five. I did not withhold as it was not completely outwith the standard and had some merit.

If an American Brittany was brought into the UK it could be shown as a Brittany because that is what it is but unless it looked like the French ones it would probably get nowhere. It is possibly unlikely most breeders would use it either at stud or to have a puppy from.

The Laws brought in a couple of American bred dogs in the early 80's. These were mated to French bred dogs by the Hardmans under the Bredebeck affix, a number of pedigrees have Pumpkin Sandy de la Mont in them, but the blood is quite dilute now. Four Bredebeck bitches were bred from and carry teh American line, so these may still be found in some UK pedigrees - Belle, Chantal, Eloise and Floraine. Most other UK breeders stayed away from the Bredebeck lines. Occasionally you see a throwback to the American type.

JMHO

Liz

My dogs have Vicky way back in their pedigree, but the American blood is so dilute by now.

I've never seen a photo of Pumpkin Sandy, if anyone has one I'd be very interested to see how far the line has moved back to the French look.

staandejachthond

as far as i can understand; the american's see their brittany's as a seperate breed... they even go so far as that only white / orange with a red/pink nose are considerd "real"brittany's......

But there are american's who say that the frech original is the breton / brittany.....so even there is a differance in thinking of what and how......

gundoglover

I have been reading Robert Cole's "An eye for a dog". In this book he describes the American-style Brittany as having a longer leg and shorter body that results in an over-reach in profile at the trot, while the European-style Brittany does not. He also alludes to a difference in temperament, but does not expand on this. I am curious as to what this difference in temperament of the two styles of Brittany may be.

Patricia

Goldie will be more qualified to answer all this having the 2 "types". It is said the American will go further and faster.
I have never forgotten the descrition" Aspro in the horizon!!"
I think after all the years of non communication and keeping their Original imports, the breed has deviated into a different type in some regions of the US.The grooming does not help as they clip the coat, not the fact they have few " roan" and dark noses. Looking at the Wesminster video, the trot is different and the angulation is more accentuated.
I have however been to the US and seen a very nice bitch as well as some ugly trialling dogs which did not resemble the French Brittany.
Is it to do with the original type exported there? I have also seen the Cornouaille kennel...

gundoglover

Thankyou Patricia,
Yes, I've seen the Westminster videos and understand how trimming and moving the dogs very fast also contributes to the differences in appearance and movement. However, I hadn't heard of differences in temperament before. I would be interested to hear what this may be.

Wyngold

In general Temperament is as variable as the people who own and how they rear and train the dogs no matter the lines.

The only "real" difference in temperaments "I" have seen and it could be relational to the lines... is that I find that French dogs are a bit more "dog aggressive". Not sure if this is because the French system promote single dog trialing instead of in "couples" and so dog to dog interaction is not evaluatd in a competition setting except in the barrage it is hard to say.
I do know that when in France I see many Bretons wanting to posture and pick fights in the national show (mostly in the male classes), and a definate more "sensitive" demeanor in most cases with regards to people interactions where the dogs are more "submissive" if you will.

I have found that some lines of French dogs are soft in a way that when the going gets tough they sometimes "fizzle" in their desire to keep going like in hot weather, or cold, etc. Again it is more individual dogs than the breed as a whole.

Again most I think is due to the different trialing systems where 15 min. runs in competition is the norm and in the USA 30 min is the bare minimum and most heavy championship competitions require the dogs to hunt for 60 min. Also all of our dogs run in couples from their very first puppy stakes as well. So dog to dog interactions are immediatley noticed and probably the selection process will gravitate to the dogs that will keep hunting longer instead of fizzling out.

I must say it is very interesting showing French typed dogs to AKC & CKC judges who normally see the American typed dogs....the comments are very favorable to say the least...and many are very pleased to recieve copies of Louvet's standard booklet with drawings. Have had many say how precise the drawing are and yes they describe exactly a square dog, and funny that so many CKC and AKC dogs look so long. Even recently the UKC American Brittany standard page was revised and I found it very disgusting that the drawing they used showed a longer dog than the standard describes. The emphasis on the flying trot is the biggest detriment to the American "Show" dog in that by selecting this trotting structure they are inadvertantly selecting a longer back which genetically is also tied to a longer back skull IMHO.
I do find that many American dogs are more physically should in structure, we have less "fiddle fronts" or "Elbows out" than do French lines, and because of our more elongated skulls see much less cases if any of undershot mouths like is frequented in French lines with too rounded and foreshortened faces.

Me I feel that only one standard should apply....FCI

"No" Americans do not feel that the only dog is an Orange and white one...there are many Liver champions and a few Liver Tricolored champions as well. But getting good Livers or good Tricolor specimens is harder. We have many many Roan champions as well. It is the "Judges" that tend to overlook correct dogs in favor of the "predominant" dogs appearing in the ring that causes breed drift.
Sadly this not only affects Brittanys but all the breeds....we have fewer and fewer breed specialists and too many professional handlers that become judges IMHO, and with them often the emphasis is on flash and showmanship and less on correct breed type, even the handlers dictate what dogs they will present which affects what gets seen in the ring.

gundoglover

Many thanks, Goldie, your answers are always interesting and informative.

I also agree that only one standard should apply. Your explanation for a possible source of Cole's statement about differing temperaments is helpful. It sounds like there is variability within and across both styles of Brittany.

As for the over-reach, Cole states that in 2003, Brittany breeders confirmed that there should be no over-reach for Brittanys, so the flying trot is wrong (although flashy).

ETA: Can someone tell me where I can purchase a copy of Louvet's book?

guy

Keep an eye on Abe books

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/S...eul%2Bbreton&x=8&sortby=2

I bought my copy from French CEB - they might post you one?

The Plum

Pumpkin Sandy de Lamont was the dam of Victoria of Talwater , Vicky for short . An American style Brit bitch co - owned by me and Libby Groundwater . I was her working half and Libby was her show half . Vicky won trials and she also won at Crufts.

She certainly was American in type and in my opinion all the better for it !
She won two trials on grouse moors competing against mainly G.S.P.'s . She could keep on running and running and running .
She also won at pheasant trials ,she'd work close if I asked her to.

I made a bad mistake with her and began teaching retrieving a bit too late. I had a lot of trouble with that but got it sorted out and she eventually competed in an invitation only LABRADOR Open test at a gamefair .........and she didn't come in last ! Laughing

She was incredibly willing to work with me - at anything ! I worked her for falconers, I worked her as a rough shooting dog and as a wildfowling dog, she retrieved greylag geese. I worked her as a picking up dog. I also decoyed pigeons with her and I did rabbit control with her too.

I have had completely French bred Brittanies since then , none have come anywhere near her in sheer working ability or in her willlingness to share that ability with me.

I saw both Vicky's dam and her dams litter sister working before I bought her. I like the American type and I also liked the temperament those two bitches brought with them from the U.S.

It is very unlikely that I'd buy another Brit pup now - I would be disapointed............Vicky was just too hard an act to follow.

Bill T.

doganjo

We all get a 'once in a lifetime dog' Bill. Vicky was yours.

The Plum

I think you are correct Annie at least where brits are concerned but I have been fortunate enough to have had several "once in a lifetime" dogs of other breeds too. I usually am a jammy sod where dogs are concerned ! Laughing

Bill T.

guy

When I had spaniels an old keeper said i was very lucky as she was a once in a lifetime dog. Many years alter I had Topaz and he eclipsed that spaniel. Catja - I believe will overtake them all. I too feel very lucky.

johnhod

doganjo