Victoria
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Stud dogsAt what age would one first use a dog over a bitch? I have gone through my kennel records for my ACD's and I never recorded at what age my males were first used.
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Annie as admin
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JAn will tell you that the standard procedure is to use a dog young once (around 9 months) then leave until mature, but I have only ever had male Brittanys and I feel that if they are used too young it may encourage theior macho tendencies so I always wait till theya re mature first, Allez has just been used at two and a half.
Annie
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Mugi
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Standard practice or not surely then you are using a dog who hasn't been hip scored if used for the first time around 9 months. I know a dog with scores of 80 and her gait is fab (she has won multiple CC's too) so you just can't tell easily.
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Mugi
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Unable to edit above, meant to add she is not a Brittany and will not be used for breeding purposes.
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Annie as admin
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Yes, that's why I wait. As I said Allez has just been used for the first time (hips 3/4). I think Jan is probably talking about breeds that don't have health issues at that age, and I was told the same thing as Jan said years ago too by a breeder of Cockers.
Annie
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Britmania
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Our preference is to wait until a male dog is physically mature before allowing him to be bred from. By this, I mean when he is full grown - not when he first starts to cock his leg. Our male GSP's and Border Collies were around 18mths to 2 years when they sired their first litters.
Another reason for leaving it till later is because the NZ Vets recommend not to hip score until a minimum 18 months of age. All our breeding stock in the past were scored at this age, for this reason.
In our experience, it is a fallacy to say that any male once used for stud will become aggressive, piddle in the house or take off and go wandering, looking for the bitches in season.
Without exception, all our studs had no personality change, did not break any house rules or go wandering after being used for stud.
All these situations are directly related to the lack of supervision of the dogs by their humans.
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Annie as admin
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I agree entirely about control, I just happen to know a dog whose personality changed after being used at stud, and since then I have been wary of using my own before maturity.
Annie
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Jan was talking about breeds that either have health checks done at an early age or not atall. With a Brittany I would think as soon as the hip score has come back [and is a reasonable score] then use him once and give him a rest till he was around the 18month to two year mark.
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barbara
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Our vet also says that the optimum time to hip score is 18 months
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Merlin was done at 13 months....I guess each vet has his/her own opinion when it should be done.
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Patricia
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I do the same as Janet...Prove a male once on our own bitches..then it does not matter.
The other side of the question is: is the male good enough to reproduce? and time and money for his training. Part of the argument in France : the dog gets hip scored at 1, then the dog, if his hips are good enough, goes on to be trained possibly professionaly. This costs a fair bit of money.
Some males will not mate a bitch, so it makes sense to make sure they can! 
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Ghilliegumdrop
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I found with some breeds that if you left it till they were 2/3 then you had the devil of a job getting them to 'do it'.
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Annie as admin
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Don't think that would be a problem wuth Brittanys though 
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Patricia
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Anne...you would be surprised... 
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Ghilliegumdrop
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It can be a problem with any breed.......just because a dog is French doesn't mean it can automatically perform 
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Patricia
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And not all Brittany females are "tarts "  Some are damned agressive and want nothing to do with the male. They do the rodeo and with an unexperienced male, you can have a whole lot of fun!
Hence, it is good to get a male with no INHIBITIONS, because some are humanised too. A good stud of excellent quality is worth its weight in gold. Nothing more frustrating than a male "one day YES, one day No".
In France( sorry for keep comparing) the bitch can be inseminated if unwilling...
They can get crochety, too old( for a first litter), too humanised, scared etc...
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Use a dog at a young age on a experienced bitch and let him have a good mating and he will remember and not be put off next time [hopefully] if the bitch is a bit reluctant
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Mugi
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Ok, going hypothetical here as I have not had a dog I would use to stud for various reasons.
I only have boys and I can certainly see an advantage of 'proving' a dog young and equally it makes sense not to mate two virgins.
But then again, what bitch owner wants to try their girl on an unproven male, the bitch has so many fewer opportunities and I am guessing that a dog must be pretty special for bitch owners to want to take a chance on missing (knowing they can miss with a proven dog too) with an untried dog.
So if you don't have an opportunity to try your dog on one of your own bitches what are the chances of your dog being used anyway???
I don't think I have expressed myself very clearly but hope you get the idea.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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In my younger days [remembering that I am only 36] we used to give a free mating to prove a dog and if the bitch missed for any reason we would give another mating at the next season.....if needed to another dog ie if the original dog had proved totally infertile. Most of the time it was the owners inexperience and they had brought the bitch either too early or too late and when he was mated to one of our own bitches they produced pups.
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Patricia
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Janet is absolutely right...But if pups are produced, then I think payment should occur imo.
I don't like proving my dog on outside bitches since one of my young males was put off by a difficult bitch.
As I like to be able to be " in charge of the situation" I decide which bitch that will be. Preferably and older sound experienced bitch. Even better" an old slapper"" 
I will add again that the stud is more so responsible for producing lots of pups and that matings should not be taken lightly. And only to excellent bitches whose owners will not flog pups for £220 as told yesterday by a member.
The owner of the bitch as well the stud owner should take responsability.
I also encourage such people to " endorse" the pups.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Or a pup in lieu 
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Britmania
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Its interetsing the comments on mating young and inexperienced dogs in general. Personally, I have not had problems with mating a maiden bitch to a maiden dog - infact in all three breeds we have owned we have done so.
I have been asked the question often (whether it should be done) and I believe that so long as the bitch is carefully observed and controlled if she is grumpy, there are no problems.
I have found that when the bitch is not in full oestrus, she will reject the advances of any male, no matter how amorous he might be, so if in doubt, I get her ovulation tested.
I have also used AI when a bitch is physically to small to accept a dog (either by nerves or physical conformation). In the cases I had, the bitches were able to deliver the pups normally.
Breeder etiquette is one of my pet topics. I think that the breeder of the litter should check who they are selling pups to and also select the correct pup for the right type of home (eg a soft natured pup is ideal for a pet home, but if sent to a owner with working expectations who gets tough and hammers the pup - its a bad combination that will lead to trouble).
Our stud dogs are always promoted as available to approved bitches only.
This then gives us the right to assess each enquiry from outsiders.If the first opportunity for stud comes from another person, providing the bitch meets all our requirements, we go ahead - even if it is the dogs first stud.
Our GSP Sheik is a perfect example. He started his show career as a baby and was admired right from the start by a fellow GSP breeder who was showing his adult bitch at the same time. He approached us when Sheik was only just into the puppy class and asked us if he could use Sheik for stud with his bitch. We told him we wanted to wait until he was mature before starting his stud career. As Sheik matured, he started taking the DogCC award and the complimentary Bitch CC was often this fellow's bitch.
She was a good twelve months older than Sheik and had not beed bred from. Anyway, these two were mated and successfully produced a large litter of pups - of which the pick dog puppy went on to become a BIS winner.
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