tailed or tailless - that is the question

guy · tailed or tailless - that is the question

My question to those in countries that have had tailed Brittanys for some while - how do you manage the working and showing of tailed and naturally tailless dogs?

Are they looked at differently in public?
Are tailed and naturally tailless dogs treated equally or do tailless dogs have a premium in the hunting field.
Are tailed and naturally tailless dogs treated equally or do tailless dogs have a premium in the show ring.
Do tailed Brittanys suffer tail damage whist hunting?

guy

as an additional question

What is the position on Brittany tails in other countries?

Annie as admin · tails etc

Well, as a mere observer in Scandinavia last year, I have to admit I got used to the tails very quickly - I was only over there 10 days Laughing

.
And in fact when we were in the forest they were actually very useful - we could see the dogs much more easily.
Annie

guy

now that is interesting

Annie as admin · tails et al

I suppose, if I am REALLY honest, I don't like the idea of cutting tails. That's why mine have always been banded. But neither do I like the sight of a bloodied tail so I have put up with it over the years. So when Cecilie said she needed their pup with it's tail left on I was quite happy to oblige.
http://s164.photobucket.com/album...n=view&current=1171231847.pbw
And Flash's daughter, Cherie, looks just as pretty with her tail on as she would with it off. She is hunted in the forests over there, along with her mother, and their pointers, and a tri French Brittany without a tail, all without any problems. However, having said all that, I have still fought tooth and nail to keep docking, although we now have a problem with showing and working not being the same dog unless we breed the short tail back in again. It's a really big (and complicated) question! Confused

Annie

guy

what is your take on the position of a dog being shown here when it has been imported from a country where docking prohibition does not exist?

mcelkek

I read in one of the shooting mags last night that a consultation on Docking is a bout to happen in Northern Ireland soon. Mad

Keith.

Annie as admin · docked dogs from abroad

As far as I am aware (Cecilie may want to correct this) in Scandinavia, if a dog was legally docked in another country then it may be shown in Norway and Sweden. Cecilie has a tricolour bitch which was born outwith Norway and she shows her. I don't know about other countries. It will depend on how strongly the Governement words the laws i think.
Annie

honeys humans

i'll try to find a good side on photo of honey so you can all see what an adult (9yr old) britt looks like with a tail (and before i get slated we had no say in the matter, honey was last of the litter and way too old to be docked when we got her)
regards
mike

Annie as admin

You won't get slated here, Mike. As I said before, I found the tails quite useful over in Norway, and in some of the thick heather up here it might help find the dog when on point Laughing

honeys humans · a britts tail

thanks annie, here's honey with tail, she's not been trained to hunt -it comes naturally! she manages fine through bracken and undergrowth but obviously requires a little more grooming because of her tail. she's such a baby that if she gets anything caught up in her tail she'll come and lie in front of me straight away to sort it out! the feathers (correct term for tail hair?) require a trim sometimes but all in all having had a docked springer before it's not really a major problem Wink

best wishes
mike

if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask Wink

guy

She looks fine! as you say plenty of feather. I was surprised how balanced she looks - putting a thumb over her tail - instant brittany, but with tail still good looking..
How does she carry her tail when working? Does it get hurt / damaged going through barbed wire fences / brambles? does it clear low tables?

Annie as admin

Honey looks very typical if you put that thumb over the picture.
Yes, I'd be interested in how her tail survives and what sort of terrain you run her in. People keep going on about working dogs but they forget that a Brittany (and probably some other breeds too) think they are workig even if their owner doesn't shoot anything Smile

honeys humans

hi guy/annie in 9 1/2 years honey's luckily never suffered any tail damage (touch wood) she's normally exercised on land where there's plenty of bracken/brambles/barbed wire fences, natural hedges, ponds and ditches, sometimes we take her through dense woodland and she's pretty fearless when 'hunting' really.
i hope this reassures some of you worried about the brittany breeds welfare. for us sticky buds are about as bad as it gets lol - nothing a good brush won't sort.
when she points, her tail would normally be higher and straighter than that pictured, which could be helpful i guess. we don't let her feathers get any longer than what you see as i think it could start to become a problem perhaps plus a little scruffy Wink

hope that helps
best wishes
mike and honey

Annie as admin · docking issue

I have just seen this on the working HPR Forum.

Docking of Working Dogs' Regulations in turmoil
8th March 2007

In the House of Lords yesterday (7th March) Lord Rooker moved that
the Grand Committee considered the draft Docking of Working Dogs'
Tails (England) Regulations 2007. After an unprecedented debate, the
motion was forced to be withdrawn.

This situation has never occurred before in this form in a Lords
Committee. Because it is impossible to have a Division in Committee,
there is a strong possibility that the docking regulations will not
now be introduced at the same time as the Animal Welfare Act in
England on 6th April.

It was The Countess of Mar who objected formally to the regulations
after declaring her interest as an honorary associate of both the
Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and the British Veterinary
Association.

"As a result of this farce, all tail docking could now be illegal in
England from 6th April 2007 up until such time as the regulations can
be introduced" said Peter Squires of the Council of Docked
Breeds. "It would seem that those opposed to docking will stop at
nothing to scupper these new regulations, however undemocratic their
actions may appear. They continue to bring spurious objections into
the debate, designed merely to delay introduction and to confuse the
issue.

Time is short and they are fast approaching the Easter recess, so
finding extra parliamentary time to introduce further changes is
unlikely to happen".
You may discover that a cross border arrangement is working here since we will have a total ban on docking in Scotland from April 30th. I wonder how they will cope with Wales Confused

Annie

Liz

This is a total shambles. Our vets - who are pro docking - have clients both sides of the Border. How on earth are they going to cope? Shocked

Annie as admin

New info re Wales docking ban

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/gundogsdept

Britmania

Here in NZ there is TOTAL SILENCE from the government on tail docking so it is safe to assume it has been put in the "too hard" basket.
The NZKC Brittany breed standard is being reviewed,we have put in our submissions and to-date, TOTAL SILENCE on what is happening. I have made discreet enquiries and it seems that the NZKC decision will be forthcoming "soon" - whatever that means.
In the meantime, as far as shows are concerned, no judge has yet made any comment to me about Sophie's tail (which is docked).
All Brittany's being field trialled are docked and I am not personally aware of any undocked dogs being hunted.
Mike, I think Honey looks great with her tail as-is and it just goes to show that having a "full" tail does not hinder the dogs performance at all.
The only case we have ever heard of a dog tail injury was years ago; a Pointer dog wrecked its tail by flaying it in amongst gorse and Matagauri (a native bush with viscious needle like foliage) while out hunting. Its tail was lacerated badly but eventually healed.

With this debate to dock or not to dock raging, I wonder whether we would just be better to have natural bob and natural long tails recognised side by side, so that whatever type tail the pup has when it is born suffices.
Afterall, if it was easy to breed ALL pups tailless, surely the breed would have been established with this characteristic ages ago.

guy

Britmania

Sure, the casual observer can not tell the difference between a docked tail and a natural bob BUT remember, the tailless gene is lethal. It is therefore going to be impossible to breed ALL Brittany pups with short or bobtails.
What happens to the unfortunate ones born with a long tail??

Annie as admin

That's the strange thing. It isn't a lethal gene in other breeds. And in bulldogs they breed short every time.
In Scotland we have a total ban so we can't dock at all - therefore some of my puppies will have long tails as normal, some will have slightly shorter tails, others will have even shorter, some will have teeny weeny ones and some may have none! and this little piggy cried 'Weeeeee' all the way home Wink

Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

It's not a lethal gene unless two tailless are mated together, and then,alledgedly, not always. basicly we don't know enough about the gene in the brittany to be able to say that it is consistently lethal when two tailless are mated together, but, I think a lot of people will go back to the original french standard which says, I believe, that dogs should be born tailless. Anne will no doubt know the correct wording on this.
Jan
Didn't know that you had a pig Anne, what breed is it? Was it tailless or did the mom bite it off?

Bailey

I admin a falconry forum and as most will know, some form of dog is used whether it be GSP to Brittanys and this statement was posted after I had consultaed DEFRA and KC on the docking of tails

"How would this effect breeds such as the brittany as a lot of you will alredy know this breed is born either with a tail,no tail or it has a naturally docked tail the KC can,t ban these from being shown "

Can someone confirm this statement for me please. I wasn't aware that Brittanys could be born with no tail or naturally dock!

I will post the details I have found out yesterday with regards docking in another thread if anyone wants me to

Thanks

Tim

Annie as admin

Hi Tim
There are about 10 breeds that have the bob or short tail gene or genes(a few different genes have been identified) It is regarded as lethal due to a process of elimination - use this link (http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html)
to read a very interesting 7 part article by Dr Bruce Cattenach on his experiments in introducing the short tail from Corgi's to Boxers (successfully, too - he now breeds show class Boxers with bobtails)

However, the 'TT foetus' is believed to be eliminated at a very early stage and is not even developed enough to be resorbed, whereas the 'Tt' and 'tT' are short tails and the 'tt' are long tails. Only pups with tails are born. These tails vary in length from virtually merely a fleshy pad to a full length tail.

Since I hope to breed short/bob tailed Brittanys, I obtained a letter from DEFRA stating that any dog born with a short or bob tail has not had a crime committed against it and therefore can be shown in the UK (and also anywhere in the world to my knowledge)

If a dog has been legally docked in any country whatsoever, it may be shown in Scotland.

No dog which has been docked may be shown in England or Wales.

When we say 'shown', we mean shown at a show where an audience has paid to come in to see the dogs.

Ireland is still in the process of making up its mind

Hope this clarifies the matter.
Laughing

Annie

Victoria

Annie, just how many shows or expositions would charge for the public to attend?

Annie as admin

Most of the Championship Shows charge entry fees, Crufts is the most expensive and has the highest gate attendance. The majority of Opne Shows don't charge.
Annie

Bailey

Absolutely perfect Annie, Thanks for the clarification

Tim

Victoria

Just to throw the pigeon among the cats I PREFER docked dogs who have been historically docked for how ever long; the Epagneul Breton has been historically docked if not born bobbed. But this is NOT ABOUT OUR DOGS!!!!!!! People tend to forget this; what it is a bout is that a minority can force a majority to change; WHAT IT IS IS SOCIAL ENGINEERING AND WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE OF THIS TYPE OF LEGISLATION ACROSS THE GLOBE. People should wake up and start being revolting (ooops some already are!!!!); at present in this country there is a anti-smacking bill before Parliament; the premise is that it will stop violence to children; in the time that this bill has been on the floor 4 children (we have a population of 4 million) have been killed or died as a result of violence BY THEIR PARENTS(a matter of six to eight weeks); under the bill struggling with your naughty child across the room to put them on the government sanctioned time out mat will constitute abuse. They can ban smoking yet one of our All Blacks beats his wife and the judge dismisses the case!!!!! Microchipping of dogs was introduced as a trailer to horrendous attacks on people; so all the good little vegemites out there trot along and have their dogs microchipped...again since this legislation there have been continuing incidences of attacks from dogs. The veterinary groups have be frustrated by the fact that microchipping is perceived, because of the way the legislation was introduced, by non dog people as proof that all dogs are therefore vicious. Meanwhile in our once blessed nation, we have one of the highest rates of juvenile suicide, one of the highest rates of domestic violence, one of the highest rates of juvenile pregnancies among the OCED countries; AND I AM TOO AFRAID TO TELL MY NIECES OFF IF THEY INTERFERE WITH THE CAT!!!!! ASK YOURSELF????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mugi

A very good point Victoria, nanny state syndrome is spreading insidiously and it is hard to see how it can be stopped as more and more legislation is brought in to each and every aspect of our lives.

guy

What i cannot follow is -
if taillessness is a single dominant gene....

why are there not more naturally tailless pups born; surely one would expect near to 3:1 tailless to tails on an f1 cross. Ok the homozygous state may be unsustainable by the mother and lost - but that will still leave all the heterozygous pups without a tail. so a theoretical 2:1 is achievable. Even putting a short tail to a tailled dog gives 50/50 of each.

Ghilliegumdrop

That's a question for Mother Nature Guy, and she is a difficult person to get hold of!!
Jan
Why are all daisies white except that one in the corner that is pink?

johnhod

Maybe the one in the corner is shy???

Victoria

Reminds you of that silly joke "why did the lobster go red?! cos it saw the Queen Mary's bottom!!!!!"

Britmania

Back onto tails for a moment......
I was talking to an Aussie Shepherd breeder recently and she confirmed that the bobtail gene in their breed is NOT lethal, which then got me thinking...(gasp)... howmany of the other bobtailed breeds actually have this lethal gene? Is it peculiar to the Brittany? If their are other breeds affected, how are they going to handle the tail docking issue etc.

I suppose it is a blessing that we do not have the blue merle gene to deal with - or is it because we DONT have this problem that the lethal gene IS in our breed??

Any thoughts anyone?

And why would any self respecting Lobster look up at the Queen Mary??

Annie as admin

We don't have to 'deal with' the lethal gene. All it does is reduce the size of the litter from an average 8 to an average 6. The other 2 embryos are absorbed at a very early stage - look at Bruce Cattenachs series of 7 articles on his producing bobtail boxers.
Annie

Ghilliegumdrop

As I have said before it is only lethal if two tailless are mated together which then produces a type of spina bifida in varying degrees which, if bad enough, kills off the pups. This is a VERY simple explaination and more detailed articles are available. As Annie says go and look at Bruce Cattenach's series which you can access through the HPR forum. I think I found it in the health bit under genetics!
Jan

Annie as admin

Here's the link to Bruce Cattanach's own website. Makes very interesting reading
http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html#articles

Ghilliegumdrop

I see, I do the hard work finding the things and you get the credit...just remember YOU owe me! Twisted Evil

guy

Cattenach's premise is - as i read it that the condition of taillessness is provided by a dominant gene. Therefore a homozygous state of TT meanse teh embryo is reabsorbed, loss of litter numbers is not noticed as tehre is a usual natural wastage.

However we have rumpy , stumpy (of variious lengths) and full tailled to contend with.

Annie - do you have Pierre Willems' article in a condition you could post - indeed can you post it? i have currently misplaced mine.

Annie as admin

I am a thief, I steal other people's ideas. I am a plagiarist. I have never re-invented the wheel in my life and at 63 have no intention of starting. However, I don't usually put them forward as my own - so here is your glory, credits to Ghilliegumdrop Wink

JANET SAW THE LINK ON THE HPR FORUM AND GAVE IT TO ME SO NOW I AM GIVING IT TO YOU. Laughing

Annie as admin

Pierre's three genetics articles - Tails, Colours, and Black.

Tails

Click to download file

Colours

Click to download file

Black

Click to download file

Ghilliegumdrop

Too right I did and don't forget ALL the other stuff you have been putting up what I told you about as well. Twisted Evil

Jan

Annie as admin

Yes, but you pinched it too, so there Razz

Ghilliegumdrop

Ah yes, BUT, I told you where I had got it from so that don't count.

guy

thanks for the articles by Pierre. It does not however answer qabout variation in tail length.

Has anyone kept details of the number of puppies born in a litter and their tail length?

Annie as admin

Pierre kept a record of all litters he has bred, in all his breeds - the tail-less gene causes a tail shorter in length than normal, but no record wqas kept of the acti=ual length of the tail. As far as I know, we will get a variety of lengths with no way of regulating it.
Annie

guy

there must be more to it as it is obviously not just tailed or tailless. can you give me a guess as to the proportions of tailled, tailless, tailled of docked length and other length tails? proportions as number relative to total litter size?

I saw no mention of Cattenach's boxers having different length tails - does the corgi always have a short tail?

Liz

It's not enough to be scientific, but I know of a tailless Brit who was mis-mated by another breed. There were 6 pups born, 2 tailless, 2 with stubby short tails, and 2 with long tails.

guy

Ghilliegumdrop

Well at the end of the day does it really matter? You can mate a tailed X tailless and get long, short and bobs or, you can mate both tailless and get less pups but all without tails......you pays your money and get what you want. Who knows how many pups are not going to be born if you mate two tailless and more to the point does anyone truly know if any die at all? Has it been proven behond a doubt or is it pure speculation? Question

Jan

guy

does it really matter - well no it doesn't. But I would like to understand.

Ghilliegumdrop

No chance.......even THEY don't understand, so how do you expect us to??? Twisted Evil

Annie as admin

We have no information on tail-less or shorter tailed Brittanys in the UK, although I do know that a few people have bred them, so I am going to try to do a survey to come up with some sort of figures. I have asked Gay to put a page in the newsletter to this end on my behalf and it should be out soon.
Annie

Victoria

Liz, what breed was the Breton mated with to result in a litter displaying the degrees of tail as you have quoted.
One can question it all one likes but genetics is genetics is genetics. You cannot dispute this... Smile

Readsorption of the foeti is an phenomenom identified in diverse breeds; i.e the koala and kangaroo of Australia will reabsorb foeti as a reaction to the prevailing climatic/nutritive conditions.
The kangaroo can indeed go one step further in its progression as physiological influences can bring about a suspended animation so the foeti is held in limbo. Unbelievable but true!! The reabsorption of the foeti should be of real concern to the Breton breeder...my grave concern is that there is a real risk of compromise to uterine health should overzealous breeding for that naturally tailless puppy be resultant.
As I have said before, being a Manx breeder, I am only too well aware of the genetics involved in flaming tails!! To get a healthy perfect rumpy kit is very exciting; interesting enough the ratio of rumpy, stumpy and full tails in a litter of rumpy to tailed is almost parallel to that of the Breton. There was no apprecible difference to the ratio should the sire be the rumpy and the dam the tailed or vice versa. Breeding rumpy to rumpy is not indicative of ratio because it dependant on the tail status BEHIND the rumpies. Just as it is with the Breton.

Ghilliegumdrop

Victoria, my arguement is that NO one has proved anything either way regarding reabsorption, and it is known that breeders have done the tailless X tailless matings with no appreciable reduction in size of litter or compromise in the health of the bitch. In this regard I believe the genetics may be slightly different than the Manx cat. Then there's the rabbit [and other animals] who can delay implantation of the egg for quite a time till things are right for a litter to be born, this is not relevent to tails!
Jan
Very Happy

Liz

Victoria, it was an Irish Setter cross.

Guy, I should have said statistically not scientifically. I meant that it wasn't a big enough sample to base firm statistical info on.

Victoria

The reabsorption or lethal nature of these matings is related to tails (obviously not to koalas or kangaroos!); Pierre states in his article that litter size is reduced; you could ask how anyone would ever determine the numbers of a litter anyway. The tailless gene in the Manxie is the same; whichever way you look at it for both races the long and the short of it is that the consequence is lethal (albeit to a percentage of the litter and in whatever guise that lethality presents itself).
Bitch health; I am meaning a bitch subjected to repeated matings; reabsorption of foeti in other animals causing fertility and uterine problems is documented: great care will need to taken in determining the background tail status of the dam and sire for the LONG TERM care of the breed: Pierre's comments in his article regarding the future are prophetic indeed. And if bob to bob worked as we may all wish it did there would be no stumpy or long tailed Breton and if bob to bob did produce only bob would the French not have cracked that one what, 100 plus years ago...?

Ghilliegumdrop

I have been told that some one has done tailless X tailess matings and has had ALL tailless, nothing was said as to breeding the offspring or what pups were reabsorbed [if known, which I very much doubt]
Jan

Annie as admin

Ghilliegumdrop

Yes so would I, that would be extremely interesting.
Jan

Victoria

Based on Pierre's percentages and those of my own cats using rumpy sire to rumpy dam, tailed sire to rumpy dam, rumpy sire to tailed dam (when I mean tailed I mean a kit born with a tail to a rumpy dam) they are almost parallel. Marjan Swantek in her book The Manx Cat also substantiates this percentage. The breeder of my foundation queens and males also atttest to this percentage.
I quote Swantek ....kittens that inherit the Manx gene (M) from both parents (MM) do not survive and probably die during an early stage of development in the uterus. As a result, Manx litters are usually smaller than those of normal cats...only a small percentage of Manx kittens are rumpies.... Unquote. so in my experience and those already mentioned the incidence of rumpies in a litter of five kits would be 1; in a litter of 8 there might be 1 rumpy, 2 or three deforms and the rest with varying tail lenghth. Swantek again...manx lovers counter (the scientific fact that manx with all or part of their tails missing to be deformed cats) with the amusing but appealing argument that Manx (like our wonderful Breton!!) are simply higher on the evoluntary scale and therefore more advanced than ordinary cats. After all, humans lost their tails during the evolutionary process. Unquote.

Victoria

I failed to add that my personal findings are based on the 25 litters I have bred from four queens (two of whom I imported from Australia) all of whom were rumpies. My two males were also rumpies and I used a tailed British Blue.

Victoria

guy

Victoria,

I thought all short tailed dogs were heterozygous, DNA testing had shown no homozygous puppies

The assumption was that homozygosity was lethal and the foetus was reabsorbed. Although not every litter shows a reduction in size

perhaps the model is that homozygous embryos do not implant very easily, thus allowing other fertile embryos to take their place - thus altering the expected Mendelian ratios of homozygous inheritance.

Perhaps those that do implant and are born are the deformed ones?? Also what is the mechanism for tail length? is it this bit that is the 'killer' rather than being rumpy.

I was wrong to say it doesn't matter. That was a trite response on my part.

Victoria

Guy, I knew you would not have meant that Smile

Heterozygous are the survivors, homozygous do not survive.
What are the requirements within the Act pertaining to working dogs exemption to the docking ban. Will these requirements easy for most Breton owners/breeders to comply with. Is there any movement towards a revisit to the act as with the hunting fraternity.

Britmania

Having seen and met your adorable Manx cat Stan, I can understand your passion for the breed Victoria, and I applaud you for doing your homework on the genetics involved.
Stan's back end looks exactly like any other bobtailed animal and one soon realises the obvious drawbacks - especially for any short coated animal in particular.
In my personal opinion, the similarities in genetic disposition and the affects of limiting a gene pool to only bobtail genes in the Brittany are obvious.
Meantime, we in New Zealand have the luxury of being able to show docked, long tail and natural bobs in the ring all together.
Lets hope we learn from the experiences and drawbacks of sweeping legislation before it is too late!

Annie as admin

Ghilliegumdrop

In other words the dratted goverment is being as two faced as it always was.
I'm not convinced that the Manx gene and the Brittany gene are the same. How can a dog/cat have the same gene and if it's not the same how can you say that it works the same? Similar maybe but not identical, in which case how do we know that there are pups that are not viable and therefore absorbed? Question

Jan

Victoria

So Annie how would you validate being a member of a shoot? Does the estate owner sign a statement, or the gamekeeper? Obviously you would need to have a current firearms licence...? I can see the financial dilemna such a move would be for Crufts.
Chris, do you know of any shows here where the public pay to attend...does the National have a gate charge for the public? (I plan to go this year for the first time - if I can get the time off work!!)

Ghilliegumdrop

Here, do you know you have posted on this forum 1095 times? Thats loads more than anyone else!! How do you find the time Question

Jan

Ghilliegumdrop

Where's the blasted edit button gone again???

Britmania

As far as I am aware, there are no dog shows held in NZ where the public pay to watch.
I have been to the National show held at the NZKC HQ several times.It is held indoors with benched seating for the public to sit on and watch.Dogs are collectively housed in a separate area and there are lots of stalls selling everything.Its basically a lot smaller version of Crufts.The entry fee for your dog is quite a lot more than normal but really, it is just another dog show.
I found my first visit without a dog to exhibit was great for exploring the venue and finding where everything was; so the following year, with pooches in tow, I was able to settle in and get on with it without worrying about other things.
The surface inside the showrings are artificial grass and if you have a good moving dog they relish the surface and almost float around!

Technically speaking, you could say the public pay to see a dog show if it is held in conjunction with an A&P show.Usually, exhibitors get a gate pass to enter the grounds, but the public pay a fee to enter the grounds and see everything, including the dog show. Unfortunately,these type of dog shows are getting few and far between.

Our government has to resolve the issue of how a ban on docking dogs can be justified when there is wholesale legal docking of farm animals.
It can be argued that docking "working" gundogs in particular is as necessary as docking lambs and cattle!

Britmania

WHOOPS, I stand corrected ....my other half has just reminded me that the public do pay to get in to the National show. Recently the show has been moved to different locations each year within NZ, and when it was held in Christchurch there was an entry fee for the public.

(Dont you hate it when that happens.....)!!

Annie as admin

Ghilliegumdrop

I've had Old English Sheepdogs in for grooming that have had maggots under their tails, also rabbits. So what's the excuse for not doing them?[the OES not the rabbits]
Jan
PS and both the dogs and the rabbit were regularly groomed so it was not a case of neglect on the owners part.

Ghilliegumdrop

Where has my EDIT button gone again???? And why carn't I make another post soon after the other one?

Annie as admin

Rules stop you posting within a minute of the last, but I don't have a clue why your edit button disappears!

tailed or tailless - that is the question

tails etc

tails et al

docked dogs from abroad

a britts tail

docking issue