This is from Anka, Switzerland. Successfully trials her dogs in France, and imports from the best lines available...and tailless.
Tail: to be carried level with the back: This is going to be difficult to select.... In all the time I have been observing this factor from 8 weeks of age onwards, it is impossible to see if the tail will be carried correctly...Oh Yes, all the puppies carry it high, this long tail, and this does not give you a clue!!!
It is only from 4-6 months that you can get an idea how the tail carriage will be!
But, from 30 odd puppies observed, from at least one tailless parent,I have always seen well carried tails, more or less abundant in fringes.
For the demand of tails or not: 50% for, 50% against.
The tail carriage is a criteria just like the ear carriage! No?
To be accepted in shows, I don't think it is easy to judge...
Difference in movement:
What I notice is not a diffrence of movement in the trot but the gallop! When the tail carriage is such as the Standard asks, the Breton has a tendency to extend their gallop, like a Setter! The one who carries his tail over the back, very often has a better and more attractive rolling gallop( That is if the dog is short of loin) But, for instance, seeing that tail in the air in hunting mode, it really is not pretty!
There is also the problem that when the dog is on scent and maybe tracks for a little while, the tail goes up, beats from right to left and left to right. This becomes evident with a long tail, probably the dogs does the same with its shortened tail, but it does not bother anyone because it is short!
Evidently, for the choice of lines, it is no good having naturally tailless dogs who are no good at hunting, not typical etc...But for my own personal pleasure, I only keep tailless dogs at home.
doganjo
Good post and my own sentiments too. Thank you Patricia.
Ghilliegumdrop
I had noticed that with Cavalier puppies if, when standing round a bowl feeding, their tails are carried over the back, chances are that they will also be carried over their backs as adults. If the tails are low when feeding they will be carried correctly when moving as adults ie; level or slightly lower than horizontal.
gundoglover
In Australia, we have had no-docking laws for a few years now. Some of the docked dogs and bitches seem to throw more puppies with gay tails (which as noted above are hard to pick in puppies. Thankyou for the interesting observation in Cav puppies, I'll look for that from now on).
What I have observed is that the dogs and bitches throwing more gay tails in their offspring, tend to be dogs with flatter croups and very high set tails. Maybe the tendency to have a curved tail begins in the spine resulting in a curve upward through the croup and the set-on of the tail and on to the tail curled upwards?
Luckily my two carry their tails level, but I don't know about their ancestors, or if the characteristic is dominant or recessive. I guess this will be just one more thing to select for in the breeding program.
Ghilliegumdrop
The shorter the back the more tendency to have a gay tail. In animals belonging to the spitz breeds [Chow, Samoyed, Akita etc] that have a natural gay tail ie; curled over the back you can see that the back has a tendency to be short and therefore the tail is set high. No doubt in breeds like the Poodle where the tail is normaly carried in the ten to two position, the dogs will also show gay tails now that they are not docked and we can see the position of the remainder of the tail. So, in breeding dogs with short backs we [ we in general I mean] have, in fact, developed this trait even more.
gundoglover
Ghilliegumdrop,
Your observation about how gay tails seem to be associated with short-backed breeds sent me running for the tape measure. Both my dogs (a small sample, I agree) measure the same in height at withers and length from point of shoulder (where the scapula & humerus meet) to butt, so are square in body, and yet carry their tails level.
However, I can see that a tail that is carried high will have the visual effect of shortening the length of the back, which would be even more emphasized for a short or docked tail. So, selecting for visual shortness of back could easily lead to selecting for a curled tail that is only apparent in the long-tailed dogs.
Ghilliegumdrop
If you think of a square corner.....a dog who's tail bone is on top of the square may have a gay tail, but if it's on the side it will tend to be carried level.
gundoglover
Ghilliegumdrop wrote:
If you think of a square corner.....a dog who's tail bone is on top of the square may have a gay tail, but if it's on the side it will tend to be carried level.
Yes, that makes sense. If this theory is correct then we should be able to feel, if not see, the set=on of the tail in the puppy and so predict the gay & level tails for adults (given that all puppies tend to carry their tails up).
Wyngold
Tail Carriage & Bobtails
There are a lot of components that go into tail carriage.
Mostly temeraments, nerve intervention, and naturally tailess dogs seem to have more of a gait issue as well in my experience.
Here is an excerpt from the Journal of Heredity early Oct.2008 concerning the lethality and birth defects associated with the bobtail gene.
Much to some individuals beliefs at least for me the article reaffirmed all of the data I have collected over the years in Brittanys with the gene and in my own experiences with defects.....so breeding bob to bob is not a "good" thing.
"In the Brittany Spaniel and Bourbonnais
Pointer short-tailed X short-tailed crosses, such a reduction
was not reported by the breeders; however, this observation
being based on only few crosses, the reduction percentage
could not be significantly calculated. Homozygosity for the
mutation appears to cause either embryonic or early
postnatal lethality due to serious developmental defects
(Indrebø et al. 2007). Similar observations have been
previously seen in different mouse mutants for the T gene
(Gluecksohn-Schoenheimer 1938; Wilson et al. 1995).
Recently, Pembroke Welsh Corgi puppies with severe
anatomical defects having the homozygous mutation have
been characterized. These puppies lacked tails, manifested
anorectal atresia with severe alterations in the posterior
lumbar region and spine, and had a failure to thrive (Indrebø
et al. 2007). In contrast with homozygous, heterozygous
bobtailed dogs have not been reported to manifest any other
abnormalities (Indrebø et al. 2007). In mouse mutants,
additional spinal defects have been described in heterozygous
T gene mutants. These phenotypic differences are most
likely due to the different type of mutations in dogs and
mice. Whereas the mutation in dogs affects only the T-box
domain, mice carry large deletions that cover the whole
T gene and may also affect the other genes in the region
such as the T2 gene (Herrmann et al. 1990; Rennebeck et al.
1998)."
Seems to me if the KC will be documenting the gene on pedigrees that doing so no matter the length of the effected short tail would be of benefit to avoid breeding short to short if one wanted to minimize the homozygous effects like lack of anus that I encountered when my supposed long tail was mated to a bobtail. When one encounters such results you can document now in fact that the supposed long tail was in fact a carrier of the gene.
gundoglover
Wyngold,
Would you mind elaborating on the gaiting issues of the naturally bobtail dogs? Does it only affect those with very short tails?
Patricia
I personally have owned Bobtails and "no tails" whatever you like to call it.( in 22 years in the breed)
Mine have never been affected in any way. Nor did I have any trouble mating bobtail to bobtail some years back before I knew this was an" issue"
I certainly would have noticed it as many stayed local to me.
I have heard of trouble in a few and have seen a Brittany in the ring move as if it was lame.
I feel it would be interesting to ask Anka from Switzerland who lately mated bobtail to bobtail, had 8 puppies, imports and uses Tailless stock from France regularly...
We also ought to have a database showing the problems if some occur, numbers of puppies, lenght of tails etc...
doganjo
Quote:
Seems to me if the KC will be documenting the gene on pedigrees that doing so no matter the length of the effected short tail would be of benefit to avoid breeding short to short if one wanted to minimize the homozygous effects like lack of anus that I encountered when my supposed long tail was mated to a bobtail. When one encounters such results you can document now in fact that the supposed long tail was in fact a carrier of the gene.
The KC will ONLY append the word 'BOBTAIL' to a registration, and ONLY if certified by a Vet using that particular word. They will not annotate ANY other length of tail, nor the word 'tail-less'. They are NOT documenting the gene on the registration system if they do this. I have advised them also that Vet decisions may not be reliable. My own vet of considerable stature and experience, and who is in favour of docking although we cannot do so in Scotland, was unable to determine which if either of my girls was a natural bobtail. In fact he would have certified Freckles as such, and said she had virtually no tail at all. I have come to the conclusion, that this decision by the KC on recording bobtails is therefore of questionable value to our breed, since it might be possible for non-bobtails to be registered as carrying the gene.
Annie
Annie
Wyngold
Well in the 32+ years I have been breeding Brittanys in the dogs that have naturally very very short or no tails their gaits can be affected.
It is not sure that in all cases this is so but certainly in several dogs there can be nerve intervention issues "cauda equina syndrome".
In my own natural bobtail which by the way the breeder was positive they had no natural short tailed pups....what made me suspicious about him was that he had a tendency ot "throw" one leg a bit wildly when he trotted or galloped. I also from palpation detected a flabby tail skin that came to a point and with NO scar of any kind to indicate banding or cutting.
He is OFA Good hips, elbows, and patellae normal. These observations made me inquire and on all accounts they told me no. Well bred for the first time he produced a litter of 3 pups out of a bitch that came from a litter of 8....with proper timing and all. 2 of the pups were bobtail, one of which was born without an Anus... so it lead me to also identify the bitch as also a bobtail even though I whelped her and docked her as a puppy.
She had a rather "thick" tail root compaired to the more whispey tail of
the littermates, but it did not appear shorter in length in any way.
Since one will not "imporve" the numbers of bobtails produced since they are ALL heterozygous then it makes no sense to deliberately breed bobtail to bobtail IMHO. All it will do is likely increase the number of potential hindqtr. defects. One can tell if a tell was cut, banded or not from a dog that was born that way....at least I have been able to tell in the dogs that I have been around and actually "really" examined.
Of course unless one continually breeds through many many repeats one may not see all of the statistical effects, and since the lethality should be in utero one hopes that you would not see the defects that I have over the years on occasion.....they are not pretty.
What might be of interest is how does one harness the unidentified gene in Bulldogs and Boston Terriers that is not a dominant gene and not the same gene as found in Brittanys???? seems this gene even if it produces a slight kink is recessive and needs to be homozygous in nature to have a true breeding trait.
Considering how the sable gene got into the breed it would certainly be interesting to see if one could get the "other" bobtail gene......))
Patricia
So Goldie, you would be happy for tailed dogs I guess? As I mentionned before, everyone to their own. If people are happy with tails, that is fine. But I choose not to have one at home, just like Anka
I would be happy to leave tails if I am told the sex, colour and get the full payment, considering there will be no choice at 2 days
I do not plan to breed bob to bobs, and will make sure I give Anne all my details on the litter from my tailless bitch. She happens to have bloodlines which are different to my others, which is another reason why I bought her. ( several of my Brittanys have Crak behind them). She has a little tail, unlike my old male who had nothing at all. And he moved well.
Wyngold
No I am not happy to "have" tails I am just one who wants a healthy litter without having to put them down because of a known genetic defect that I intentionally caused. Now if I could convince a genetic experiment along the lines of Dr. Cattinach's Boxer one but instead use the recessive gene which would allow us to have 100% bobtails with no effect other than a slightly kinked tail I am all for it. But for now having a gene that is not 100% true breeding means to be stuck in breeidng tailed to no tail to get some tailess that are healthy.....that is all.
But for now I live where I can dock, and you can besure that when the time comes with genetics articles such as this I would intend to make it or keep it legel for the breeds that do have such genes to keep them docked under specific regulations and guidelines for proceedures.
Wyngold
FYI Statictical data-
Titan des Deux Moulins, OFA Good, patellae Normal, Tailess
(Ch-A,P,T Fanch de Saint Lubin x Paula des Deux Moulins)
and
Ululani du Petit Odon, OFA Good, patellae Normal
(Phenix du Bosquet de la Mordoree,Tr x Polden du Petit Odon)
Had 6 pups- 3 males (1 tailess) & 3 Females (1 very small may not make it)
So for now Titan has only produced 3 tailess pups in 2 breedings. Not a very high chance probability eh?
Victoria
The rumpy Manx cat has what the breed's fanciers call a bear/rabbit type gait...he runs as if the pelvis and hips are as one. I personally believe that this, what I call 'fixing' of the pelvis is what is causative in the rumpies being predisposed to megacolon as kittens, which, thankfully under sound, experienced husbandry can be avoided.
I would be most interested in knowing if anure Breton puppies have any predisposition to this condition.
))
