Patricia
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what do people want?I had an interesting day yesterday...
Toscane just had her puppies and I had some bookings for them. Many for working homes ...but interestingly ALL wanted the tail off or did not want them if left on for obvious reasons.
One even wanted it docked for competition obedience. Now, that should be fun! 
One lady wanted one for showing too and work. I was prepared to leave a tail on for her providing she stated sex and colour.Poor lady was puzzled taking it for granted they would be docked but not realising the implications of the showing nightmare...Now thinking about it all! 
Way round it all?
Tailless!!  I am now waiting to complete my gang with an imported tailless male from an " 8 point" litter.
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johnhod
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You need a friendly vet who will confirm they are all bobtails, without seeing them.
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Annie as admin
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Not possible - the tail-less gene is not 100% - in a litter of 6 say, the stats say 4 tail-less, 2 normal length tails. Even a friendly vet wouldn't be that daft. I have to have mine certified if they are born tail-less and what length they are so just as much a nightmare up here. Even though we can't dock I have to prove that I haven't done it  So utterly STUPID!!!
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eddieh
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| johnhod wrote: | | You need a friendly vet who will confirm they are all bobtails, without seeing them. |
Wouldn't that cause confusion when people want to breed from them thinking that they are naturally tailless 
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Patricia
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I have imported a tailess bitch( Clochette du petit Odon) who is brachyoure( bobtail) so she looks just like my others.tailed.
I have a certificate from the French vet that she is naturally so and no op was done on her. I will have the same with the male. NOT a problem.
And if I can't show much my docked dogs, then so be it. 
It is a choice and I have made it. 
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Patricia
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I agree with Anne- This country and Europe have gone bonkers.
They worry about a few seconds discomfort yet, we still castrate and dock piglets, double tag calves at a young age etc...We worry more about the welfare of animals than we do that of people's...We don't want to kill little birds and have to leave dangerously overgrown heges on the roadside. people get killed because of poor visibilty, but that's OK!!! 
You are better off here if you are a dog and go to the vet's!!! 
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guy
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legislation - by the ill-informed for the uniformed.
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guy
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Perhaps the Club - for the benefit of its members - could publish a comprehensive list of clubs and societies who put on shows which allow legally docked dogs to enter.?
Likewise a list to name and shame ones who don't.
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johnhod
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Kennel Club at the top of the list of those who don't then
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Annie as admin
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I asked Paul this question before but I don't think he got much response from teh Champ Shows. I'll ask him again - but basically Open and Limited Shows don't charge admission.
Crufts does, and have said they won't change - so much for the KC support for docking!
Annie
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Patricia
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Sadly this situation is marching across Europe. More " Greens" who have not enough to do in their life and no business other than to ruin others. The French were a step ahead and stipulated the docking would not be agreed on in the convention. 
Being French and pig headed, I will just show half a dozen times under respectable and knowledgeable judges, rather than abide by this ridiculous law.
I have a working breed, that is what they will do and I would hunt the country up and down for vets who dock. I am lucky to have a great vet who is coming under fire from her colleagues. But she carries on...Maybe one day they will make her life impossible, then...I should have been aware like Anne and been a step ahead.
As for the shows, I will seriously think about judging for a show who does not allow docked dogs.
If tailled dogs were to be shown in France, I don't think they will be appreciated. Already the French have boycotted some Belgian shows and these have poor attendance. Going to Belgium was a way of making your dog into an Ch It de beaute. Now, you will have to go South, Spain, Italy etc...
All a huge joke. I never thought I would see the day. 
Now planning my shows in France where to take my very nice docked bitch!
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johnhod
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So how many will refuse to judge at Crufts while they continue to ban docked dogs?
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Annie as admin
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Glad I've done my stint, obviouly the next two years they will have accedpted before the ban came in - Marion next year, can't remember who's next after that .....................
Spelling edited only
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guy
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Patricia
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Annie as admin
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Didn't you see the wink?
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Patricia
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You've guessed Guy...No worry it was in the Dog World.
To answer John: Yes, I was asked to judge at Crufts nearly 5 years ago and of course was delighted. After all that is the ultimate judging appointment.
BUT... Had I known then what I do now ( should have listened to Anne) I really don't know if I would have accepted as I am one to think Form and Function, work for a working breed, or I would have a Bichon( not going to say a Cavalier before I get strung up by Janet!! ) But it only entails me, it is a free country.
I have been that many years at the French Nationale, been in the ring with judges which I have got to know and they act as my mentors...to change my opinion...
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Ghilliegumdrop
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guy
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| Patricia wrote: | | You've guessed Guy |
just happened to see it in a copy of the Kennel Gazette at Catja's ringcraft class
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johnhod
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I'm behind you all the way Patricia. I too think that working dogs should look like working dogs and should be capable of lasting a day in the field. I just wonder whether in the future will judges who feel the same as you have the scruples to turn down a judging appointment at a major championship where working dogs are not allowed to be shown.
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Annie as admin
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Or in fact place dogs they know are being worked above those they know are definitely NOT worked, and SHOULD they do that? Playing Devil's advocate - it is a beauty show
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Victoria
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As a judge I do not see shows as a 'beauty contest' ...it is an evaluation of the animal against the breed standard where conformation, breed definition, correlation of the parts are assessed for compliance. If I have said it once, I will say it a hundred times...a working dog should be breed standard compliant and an exhibited dog should be a working dog...all in one package. Only by our deliberate and stringent endorsement of both can we maintain the breed as it is. Any deviation and the qualities which make the breed the breed will be demeaned.
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | a working dog should be breed standard compliant and an exhibited dog should be a working dog |
So please explain, how do you know if a dog being shown is capable of working, let alone actually doing any work?
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Victoria
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As the owner slash breeder of a 'working' breed wouldn't you want to avail your dog to both show and work opportunities, to prove that he/she can achieve in both codes? I appreciate that many may not be able to do so but I would go to the edge of hell to prove mine because the Breton is a hunting dog who, in my opinion, should also be breed standard compliant.
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johnhod
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I certainly wouldn't disagree with you, Victoria. I just wonder how, as a judge you would be able to tell whether or not a dog was one that worked , rather than one that was bred and used just for the show ring.
I'm particularly interested as my dog has been accused of being underweight when shown during the shooting season and thus in working trim.
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Patricia
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I agree with Victoria that showing stock is the evaluation of conformity to standard. The dog should be well muscled and not overweight and flabby.
But because it is a show, the dog must not be thin either !
So, during the working season, have the dog in working order and fatten up in the show season! !! A couple ok kgs and sorted!
We are looking for a Cob, and this type of horse is well rounded and powerful.
As for recognising a show dog or a working dog in show condition you can't.
The only thing( as was mentionned once in Dog World) would be to not have any SH CH's at all, just dogs who have an award in the field too and only then CH's.
Can you imagine how well that would go down ??!!!
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Ghilliegumdrop
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The Plum
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| Patricia wrote: |
The only thing( as was mentionned once in Dog World) would be to not have any SH CH's at all, just dogs who have an award in the field too and only then CH's.
Can you imagine how well that would go down ??!!! |
I would love to see that ! The Brit classes in the show ring wouldn't take long to judge that's for sure !
It won't happen , the breed is far too full of show only people or with people who give lip service only to the work the dogs are meant for. I agreed with the earlier post that asked how a dogs value as a worker was determined by seeing it walk around a show ring. Shows do NOT show the best working dogs , a show can only show what a dog LOOKS like - show looks and show wins do not make a worker. If they did then the show bred Irish Setters for example would beat the very different looking work bred Irish Setters out working - the showbred dogs cannot live with the work breds up on the grouse moors. They are wrongly bred.
Too many show generations have gone untested in the field by show owners who have the cheek to tell working folk what a working dog should look like. That's Irish Setters but don't fool yourselves ,Brits could go the same way unless the generations are tested and seen to be tested in the field as well as at shows.
The Plum.
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Patricia
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"Brits could go the same way unless the generations are tested and seen to be tested in the field as well as at shows. "
Well there I agree... 
Plum, if you were to go to France you would see the working classes nearly as full as the Open classes ( certainly the Orange class) at the French Nationale. Those dogs have awards in the field. More often than that, the winner of the show or the CAC is a working dog.
Some people complain they are too fat. Some say they are too thin. I don't see it as a problem. When the season is finished, and whenever you want ( if you want) to show, put the food up. It does not take long for a Brit to put on condition.
Not everyone wants to do competitions, but a minimum standard is required, certainly in France.
As for dividing breeds, the British are well known for it.
Hope I don't get to see the day.
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The Plum
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My last post was unfair to the brittany breed for it singled it out .
I am unaware of any gundog breed in this country that would have a lot of show ring exhibitors if those dogs had to have a working qualification of any worth before entering a show ring.
I am regularly saddened when I see the things that parade around show rings calling themselves gundogs !
On the subject of fat showdogs I feel the show judges need to be educated. There is a difference between showring fit and work fit. I.M.O. a supposedly working breed should not be penalised for being work fit.
My previous Brit worked all year round. Shoots etc. from the 12th August till seasons end then rabbit clearance and pigeon decoying, occasional days out with hawks then spring grouse counts , more rabbit clearance, more pigeon shooting , more grouse counting then more grouse shooting work. She worked all year long - she even went wildfowling and brought back Greylag geese. At no time did she carry extra weight. Its probably a damn good job I never showed her for if I'd found out a judge had put her out of his ring for not carrying weight I'd have left him without an ounce of credit to his name. A dog at its' proper working weight and level of fitness should not be penalised in the ring - it is entered as a gundog isn't it ? Take a good look at the other gundog breeds in the other rings. Are they fat or are they just show fit ??? Do you want the Brit to go the same way as so many of the other breeds ?
The Plum.
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guy
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Bill you will be pleased to know Topaz came 3rd out of 11 in the any variety FT gundog at the National Gundog Show in Malvern.
In the breed show the two reserve CCs went to dogs that work competitively; boasting - one was mine.
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johnhod
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Good result Guy, well done.
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The Plum
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Well done Guy, if they can work and show I have no quibble with the dogs
The Plum.
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Annie as admin
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Right, Guy - that's a COM with one and a RCC with the other - you really need to get them combined
Well done, excellent news, Geoff Hargreaves really looks for the ones that look like they work. I'm surprised he doesn't actually ask exhibitors when he's going over the dogs.
Annie
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guy
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a busy winter ahead
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Annie as admin
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Hey, it's not nearly winter yet - get busy NOW!!!
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Patricia
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Anne, how can a judge pick a working dog ( unless he knows they work ) ????
Apart from muscle tone-which can be equally achieved with lots of free running and exercise-
Or a thin dog or even ask as you say? hummmmmmmmmmmmm...............
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Annie as admin
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| Quote: | ( unless he knows they work ) ????
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Question answered I think
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Patricia
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No comment...
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Victoria
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Re muscling...you can tell the difference between the musculature of the dog which is exercised on the flat...say parks etc to that of the roughshooters/poachers (!!!) dog...the Breton who is rough shooting/working gains 'bulk' to his muscles, not just a degree of tone. The ligaments are strong; the detectable veins on the legs are more pronounced. The pads are thicker. I know only too well, John, the prejudice of judges to the working gundog.  The Labradors shown here are very well covered and spongy!!! Some seem to huff and puff around the ring...!!
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Patricia
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"rough shooting/working gains 'bulk' to his muscles"
Not quite true.
Dogs muscle up differently, some get more muscles than others. I haven't seen many bulging thighs on Brittanys...maybe unless they work all day every day...
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johnhod
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| Quote: | The Labradors shown here are very well covered and spongy!!! Some seem to huff and puff around the ring...!!
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Just the same as here, short legged as well (or maybe that fat that they look short)
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The Plum
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The legs of many showbred labs actually are short. Over the last 3-4 years I have trained 3 showbred labs as gundogs. I slimmed down and hardened off all three bitches.The dogs I trained all still had a good bit of game sense and willingness to work but these were not top show winning dogs. They all shared the same fault - too short in the leg to easily do the job. They were all especially bad at jumping fences, even low fences that my little cocker can jump gave them trouble. A decent work bred lab can get over 6 feet or more.
It is conformation gone mad !
The Plum
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Victoria
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| Patricia wrote: | "rough shooting/working gains 'bulk' to his muscles"
Not quite true.
Dogs muscle up differently, some get more muscles than others. I haven't seen many bulging thighs on Brittanys...maybe unless they work all day every day... |
My boy has bulging thighs...!!
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