Following the sad story of Freddy the Welsh...and his problems...
From what I understand other owners would benefit from knowing the situation?
What do people think the responsability of a breeder should be? How far does it go? Of course each case is tackled differently...but it is an interesting topic and one which I have read on the French Forum.
In one " touchy" case, a gentleman bought a dog for competition. The dog had poor hips. The parents of the dog had good hips scores....
It depended if anything was written on the receipt at the time of purchase; ie breeding, pet, show or work.
One breeder gives half the money back if a dog has some " issues" and the owner keeps the dog...or another pup and takes the non perfect dog back. There are always emotional issues as a canine is such a big part of your lives.
What do people think?
johnhod
I think that provided the buyer and seller have been honest with one another the buyer cannot reasonably expect anything more from the seller than advice and support. When you buy a dog you have to accept that you are buying a living animal, not a machine and that things may go wrong that are outside their control or yours.
Obviously the situation would be different if the breeder or buyer acted irresponsibly or deliberately lied.
guy
This is an interesting question.
There must be - although i have not seen it a comprehensive 'template' contract document for the sale of a pup. All those i have seen (an it is not that many) have been self created.
i would have thought that the puppy has to be of 'merchantable quality' - vettable - but this cannot give an automatic guarantee to anything - softmouth, full adult dentition, adult hip score, hunting ability, outstanding conformation.
A pre determined contract could agree terms for these areas, and also a scale of 'discount' if the money back route is chosen.
Freddies problem is I think slightly different - isn't he a 'second home' dog? in which case any agreed or implied contract with the original owner and breeder must be off. It then relies on the original breeder and their attitudes. I suspect those who do the most for the puppies before they are conceived will do the most once they are born. (bear in mind this may be a gross generalisation on my part, it applies my logic and my view of the world and not particular instances!)
I was speaking to a breeder in France, she had sold a dog, with great parentage. As the new owner could not take it immediately she kennelled it and trained it a bit entering it for its TAN; It failed. The whole thing ended in court.
johnhod
My previous reply was not intended to apply to Freddie, as you say Guy it is a different situation altogether. however, the breeder, when made aware of the situation with one dog from the litter, should have been responsible enough to share that information with others who had dogs from the same litter. Obviously, from the limited information provided the breeder is not a responsible person and IMHO should be identified to prevent others from falling into their grasping clutches in the future (assuming they are still breeding)
doganjo
ABS gives breeders a template sales contract. Might be on KC website
Mugi
Ok, my point of view after having two dogs with something that has gone wrong that could be directly attributed to hereditary factors.
Dogs are not machines, they are animals and as such there are no guarantees. I do not blame a breeder for the problems a dog develops down the line, a sound healthy dog can produce a dog prone to health problems despite testing etc - that can only go so far and give 'us' better odds that our dog won't have a problem.
When Cressy was diagnosed with hip problems at 17 months and subsequently Wobblers I contacted her breeder as a) a matter of courtesy, b) to find out if they knew of any other problems cropping up in the littermates and c) in case they were planning a repeat mating. The breeders were great, they contacted all the other pup owners to check and/or warn. They looked at the line and from the POV of a repeat mating that was out of the question as the sire had died as the result of a tragic accident. They did go down a different bloodline for the second mating however and no problems were found in any of the puppies from either litter.
I do not have a problem with Fred's breeder regarding the health issue, what I do have a problem with is that she appears to feel no responsibility for contacting the other littermate owners. The sibling owner found me through luck, I am the only owner she has found. She asked the breeder to contact all sibling owners and I know for a fact the breeder has up to date contact details for me cos we exchanged emails last year and nothing has changed - she didn't. I subsequently contacted the breeder asking her again to contact sibling owners (ok details may have changed but it is worth a try) as screening and early awareness/management may well save the sight of the dogs - well worth knowing about. I also gave her permission to pass on my email addy in case anyone wanted further info. Her reply to me quite clearly demonstrated she has no intention of doing this.
So I don't want a replacement, I don't even want any financial recompense (that might be a different scenario if a young pup developed an illness very young that would change the agreed reason for purchase) but I would like the breeder to show an interest and if there are real reasons to try to contact siblings I would like to hope the breeder would feel that responsibility too.
In Fred and his sister's case we are asking the KC to forward letters to any registered owners of direct siblings. Whether this will help remains to be seen as it does rely on people transferring registration and still living at the same address. We are also letting the health liaison of the breed club know but that is unlikely to help contact siblings as Millie's owner had already tried to find if any owners of the Ginger litter were club members and it seems not - I know I am not .
Patricia
Playing Devil's advocate here!
Do you think the breeder is scared/ worried by the repercussions of contacting owners ? and maybe give money back, being harrassed etc????
Only thinking aloud. Because I think if you are prepared to listen and advise, people are usually ok...YES ??? NO???
Many worry even about training, health, temperament and it makes them feel better to have someone take the lead and tell them if things are OK/ or not...
Agreed reason of purchase. Now that is a tricky one as Guy pointed out...
You can breed 2 dogs with the best of pedigrees, the most successful field trial champions, excellent hips, brillliant conformation...It does not mean these will pass on to the progeny But it certainly helps...
Put all the odds in your favour and hope to be good.
In the case of the BBC documentary and the Cavalier suspected of that awful disease, do you think any owners with affected pups may think of sueing? What do you think?
Also, as I read opinions on the French Forum, which has some breeders of real standing : ie: A contract is non void if it does not mention a reason and condition of use of the dog: ie, stud, competition etc...
Indeed a dog is not a machine and things can...and do go wrong.
Do people want money back, back up, sympathy, or a replacement?
Further thoughts???
See what you put through my mind Sue
Mugi
All these thoughts to me hinge on what your dog is to you.
Mine are first and foremost loved companions, anything else they can do is a bonus but not the reason for really wanting a dog. I also have a fairly pragmatic approach to health due to my background - sh*t happens and what matters is how you go about it.
When I got my Ocicat kitten I knew he had got less than 50% cardiac function, I knew he would only live a short time but he was a living being and did not deserve to be discarded just cos he had a serious health issue his breeder was honest about. I lost Misca when he was just over a year old, he was a stunning cat and a joy to own even if it was always going to only be a limited time.
Cressy had a potentially life limiting condition, Brice has two - are they worth less to me - NO.
Patricia
Agree...I loved my six short years with Womble, my Bouvier. Her successful breeder who really good, as it happens I went to see her yesterday as Jessie was making a call there. She would have given me another puppy no doubt, but another would not replace the one I had lost...
I had to have a big dog as there were some dodgy vans coming down our one mile long drive and not calling in...They used to look at the kennels, and hop it
Funny, I also have an Ocicat( I chose that breed as Malou thinks he is a dog ) and beats up the Brits.
Every animal is like a person with their own individual personality. I think when I lost my bitch, I wanted someone to talk to, listen and see what reaction they would have...
guy
I think it depends on your attitude to 'having' animals.
If you 'own' them you think one way and if you 'hold them in trust' you look at them another.
If you 'own' them you value them as chattels but if you 'hold them in trust' you have an obligation to do the best for them.
Liz
There is a lot of variation in breeders/owners reactions when things do go wrong. Also breed clubs vary in the amount of support they give.
When our Weimaraner bitch produced pups with entropion we paid for corrective operations. Our bitch's breeder was a fantastic support. We were informed by members of the breed club committee that this condition did not exist in the breed, though other more honest people told us the first dogs brought into this country had suffered from it. (We discovered in the end we had doubled up on an affected dog 6 generations back!)
A friend of mine with a different breed has had terrible problems with a bitch she owns in partnership who has a hereditary muscle wasting disease. Her partner, the dogs breeder, refuses to admit there is a problem and has not contacted owners of the bitch's litter mates or her pups (unfortunately she was only diagnosed after she had a litter). As you can imagine this is a heartbreaking situation all round. In this case, though the breed club is very supportive.
On the other hand, most people here will know that Sherry's hip score came out disappointingly high. There is no way I could blame her breeders for this - just have to live with it and put aside any plan I had of breeding from her.
ID Girl
Being new to this forum and not owning a Brittany I find it fascinating the way different breeders work on this matter.I for one set myself the following rules/guidelines as said dogs are not machines. All my dogs have the relevant health screenings, matings are first done on the computer program I have I will not breed from a pair of dogs with more than 10% inbreeding as I own a rare breed I try to expand the gene pool as much as possible there are less than 2,000 dogs registered in my breed. If you are lucky enough to own one of my pups this is what you are told.
1 I will always take back any dog I have bred be it young or old, my pups are tattooed so if any end up in a shelter I get to know about it.
2If any pup develops anything wrong with it in the first 12 months of its life I will either pay to have it put right(if it can be) or exchange it for another pup.
3 I will also buy back my pups if they are under 12months old and people have found out the breed was not for them.
I sold a dog pup to a chap in Scotland at 7 months old to go as a pet as he had an undesended testicle with the agreement that he paid full price for the dog and I would pay to get it neauted.The dog was done on Friday at a cost of £578.88 I have already sent him a cheque first class post Sat morning. If people are open and honest with me then I will go out of my way to help them.
Patricia
How many people are like you Christine? Hummmmmm...........
I was having the dreaded chip done( which Djinnie hated and screamed blue murder- the orange bitch !-) and chatted to my vet.
She thought your castration was rather expensive and looked at me in a startled manner
Ditto with your No 1 way: I also tell people if you die or get divorced I will take the dog back and rehome myself.
2: I would exchange a pup.
Another series though: sometimes you don't know how people feed/ exercise or do with a dog/ puppy??? Also some pull the wool over your eyes. I have been in my breed for 21 years, it is amazing what you learn on route!
3: I take people out with the dogs. If I don't think they have the right body language and unsure of their suitability, I take my fastest and worst dog out and tell them to ...get on./ A flash in the horizon...and that sorts the dubious!
I like to see people stroking the dogs...getting to their level, if they hate the dog jumping up- which the Brittany can be bad for-then
I give them a grilling, tell them their faults...also to go home and think after seeing adults. If they make the wrong choice after that, I take the dog, but no money back
If I go and buy a Ferrari and need a saloon car, I can't go back and say I want my money back...It is up to me to have a test drive!!!!!
It would be wrong of a breeder say these are an easy and non time consuming breed. Life with them is...in the fast lane!!!!
ID Girl
Yes I agree, I too let the 14 Red Devils out on the poor people and see their reaction and what they do especially if it has been raining and they get the grilling to see if they have done their homework on the breed and last but not least I let them hear the 'scream' if that doesn't put them off nothing will. Wicked or what
.
But it certainly helps...
) and beats up the Brits.
