where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

Patricia · where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

That is the subject which has attracted over 3950 readings on the French Forum...Has the game changed due to agriculture ? Has the grey partridge left forever? Are the dogs getting too fast and bred for field trial rather than good old rough shooting? Is their temperament too" independant"? Are they getting as fast as the " British" dogs ( against Continetal breeds)
It all makes great reading as I have noted some of my dogs more" goey"than others and some who once on game will give you the 2 fingers Confused

Whilst another will glance back at you, wait, won't argue, and generally is more focused on its" person".
Is 100 to 150 ms too far?? hence many French resorting to electric collars...Faster to find what is becoming more scarce game wise ?
I was surprised to hear than in some areas the wild population of pheasants is not allowed to cross with released game... in France.
Can a field trial dog be a normal shooting dog with all the bad habits it may pick up?

Ghilliegumdrop · Re: where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

I was surprised to hear than in some areas the wild population of pheasants is not allowed to cross with released game... in France.

How do they stop them breeding then......put pants on the females or give the males condoms at the start of the breeding season Rolling Eyes

Victoria

Patricia, I have been following this thread also.
I understand that in some European countries, there are more hunters and dogs than game birds and I can well understand the subsequent increase in field trials and attendances. At least their dogs are given a chance to hunt albeit in the structured manner of trials.
As a rough shooter I cannot quite reconcile myself to the structure of trials...my oven is the judge, the recipe the score card, the pleasure of the meal by my guests the trophy.
However, I would never ever presume to negate the abilities of handlers and dogs in the trial world...I know only too well from personal experience that it is not as easy as the experienced handlers and dogs make it look. But I have agonised over the correlation between the two disciplines of dogwork.
The speed of the dog is an interesting point...if you have a trial where your dog has say 15 minutes or 30 minutes for a completion you are going to want a dog with perhaps more speed than the roughshooter...although I like a fast Breton, unlike trialists, we can choose to spend five hours or all day (within the regulations regarding shooting hours) to secure a pheasant. I also believe that in the trial situation, perhaps because of how some experienced dogs develop a degree of automation, that connection may become less important...to me it is not only natural but paramount...I not only appreciate and have eye contact offered (because in one part it serves to constantly reenforce our mutual trust and cooperation), but I think it is very important especially when we are hunting an area my dogs and I are not familiar with, for instances, in some areas, there are under-runners (where the earth subsides...we are mostly on volcanic loam on limestone in my area) which are a dog person's biggest fear. And as we are in the process of developing silent commands, of course, it is a necessity, obviously Laughing

As for quartering distances (and I know this is one subject debated long and hard on other forums), I know how some judges have a preference for distances...say 150 yeards maximum, others will tolerate greater distances, other less. My dogs modify their quartering distances to the cover of the area we are in, which is natural to them and pretty obvious, but as field trials are held in fields of varying vastness, I guess it is a matter of modifying the dogs quartering to the judge's preference, which again is modyfing the dogs natural abilities to suit. But if this modification secures a challenge point then it reasonable enough to accept a trialist manipulating his dog's inclination (althought the use of electric collars to do so is unthinkable to me). Unlike the shooters dog who is going to place game in an empty pan, the trialist's dog may be going through the motions of hunting, but he is not providing for his family. The roughshooter also wants perhaps a greater degree of boldness and perserverance from his Breton...a gorse bush or huge rampant bramble bush shall not deter him!! One French author summed up the Breton's perservance as 'malicious intent' and this is real, as I witness so often, albeit stunning in its execution...
As a huntress, when researching pedigrees it is the dogs with FT titles that draw my eye...it is a catch 22 situation, the title indicates that the dog has ability in the field...but for my purposes, will a puppy from the title holder have real ability in the rough; the perserverance, deliberation, thoroughness, hardiness and endurance I ask for. And I think the question of whether we are at a risk of seeing three separate lines developing i.e field, show and hunt could be a valid one.
The Epagneul Breton is the poacher's dog...he cannot ever be permitted to lose his natural ability; no matter how bereft the land is of his preferred quarry.

guy · Re: where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

guy

Perhaps it is more a case of you don't see the 'old style' as the competitions are defined by the dogs that win - and these can only now be won the modern FT style dog.
Perhaps they need to change the competition style

I was talking to a Dutch trialler last year and he was explaining why the dogs are fast and why only those dogs that bore into the wind fast would win. If you watch the 'couples' run at Vimpelles last year the handlers were also running to keep up - hardly a safe practice if they carried a shot gun.

steve

i agree guy when iam out shooting i want to be safe with my gun and would not want to be running down the feild hoping the dog holds point to get a shot in please feel free for anyone to correct me but my idea of taking my dog and gun out is to train my dog to work a close area in front of me and slightly left and right of me in a controled manner so if anything is flushed it is in range for a clean safe shot the ultimate being a good trained dog holding point and flush on command i also want my dog to hold point when i fly my hawk or falcon to then put the bird in position ready for the flush again the same rules apply the hawk would lose confidence if the dog fushed 2 feilds away and had no chance of a flight if ive got anything wrong please put me right so i head in the right direction
thanks steve

doganjo

steve

Hi annie yes i know what you mean i apolagise after i re read my post i realised i had missed a bit out what i meant to add was after your dog is working and responded well at close range to experiance gunshot and how it all works then extend the range to let your dog show its true potentail but all being under control becuase as many people say give a brit half a feild to early and it will take a county Laughing

iam a long way of that stage yet and with all the good people on here iam sure i will head down the right path

doganjo

I've let Allez off with too much in the past. I doubt if I'll ever get it right with him. He was great the first two years, then I moved house and let him do what he wanted for a year or so. Bitches are easier though.

Patricia

?????????????????
The general concensus after reading the numerous posts of the French thread.
1; the biotype ( game) has changed due to a change in agriculture. Larger fields, less hedges, fewer partridges and wild pheasants> it seems as in some areas the hare is making a come back
2; A good dog will " get out there" to find whatever there is to be found. Speed is not a problem if in check with its handler.
3; Good and winning dogs are descended from successful field dogs often being in the awards consistently.
4; A Brittany does not need to be a boot polisher as it is not a Spaniel.No need for a 40 or 50 yards limit!!!
5; if people feel a Brittany is too far too fast, get a Spaniel!
6; And more to the point like Robert Morin( judge from Quebec) rightly mentionned: it is a question of temperament. The "independant" dog is the problem, the one hard headed who works for itself. Not a matter of speed at all....

About bitches, I prefer working a male...I find them more even tempered Wink

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doganjo

steve

patricia i may have cofused the point the bottom line is i want my dog to be happy and get the best from her a good handler needs a place like here to get the knowledge as you only get out what you put in and this is a great forum for us newbies

thanks to all steve

Ghilliegumdrop · Re: where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

[quote="guy"]

guy

so you did - Laughing

Hunting range - We expect the dog will adjust its range to suit the circumstances; both game and hunting style of the shooter. Hermann for instance values a dog that 'works under the gun' - but then he goes out hunting with a group of friends and each dog ideally has a beat of its own. If one is out on ones own in woodland, to have a dog work out of sight or range is not going to add much to the enjoyment of the day. At a field trial with four guns the maximum range of the dog needs will only encompass these, but how many FT are run on open ground rather than hedges ditches and woodland? Out on a grouse moor with few birds and hectares of heather range becomes more important.

A spaniel needs to work so that anything it flushes is within the range of the gun, HPRs give an advantage by holding point to allow us to get within range - so ideal for much sparser game populations.

Annie - you say bitches are easier and dogs more even tempered - could you elaborate.

doganjo

gundoglover

"I find my bitches watch me without being asked (bawled at Rolling Eyes ), they respond much more quickly to my whistle even though there may be distractions. I find my dogs have always been more independent and to be honest downright stubborn at times."

I have the opposite situation: responsive male, independent bitch. So, perhaps gender is less important than other factors.

Victoria

Gender less important for whom??

guy

gundoglover

Victoria,

I was responding to doganjo's observation that her bitches were more responsive to her than her males. My situation is the opposite - bitch less responsive, dog tries to please. So, my somewhat cryptic comment about gender being less important, was to suggest that maleness or femaleness may be less important than other inherited factors in predicting responsiveness and tractability. However, this is from a small sample!

Victoria

As a result of this subject, I have asked other Breton owners and breeders (men) and what they have concluded is the same opinion as yours! But each dog brings his/her own talents of course...and I guess this is part of the passion and allure of the breed...

The Plum

I don't have a problem with a dog hunting 150 -300 yards out to either side of me on a grouse moor. The dogs job is to hunt for and point game - if the game is a long way out then that's where the dog should go to look for it. Under those conditions you can see the point and walk to it so why would wide ranging be a problem ?

I think what is feared isn't the wide range - it is the loss of control that so many brittanies lack even at close ranges !

It is perfectly possible for a well trained Brittany that wants to work with it's handler to cover a beat of 2 -300 yards -or more - when on a grouse moor and to have that same dog hunt within 20 -30 yards of the handler in woodland. The trouble with so many Brits is that they do not want to work either for or with a handler - they think they are a one man band !

If I could breed to improve just one thing in the brits mental make up then it's willingness to please its handler rather than itself would be that thing.

Having a short ranging dog is easy - just blow your turn whistle . It is easier to pull in a wide ranging dog than to push out a short range type.

Bill T.

Patricia

Bill, I really like your answer and that is what many stated after well over 4000 viewings on the subject.
Dominique Pozo, a very successful handler who wins mostly on wild game in mountains...says that he can't believe the current stock is faster than 50 odd years ago. And, and he has a point, that the present field trial Chs do descend from equally fast dogs of the past. If people find Brits too far ranging, then go for s slower HPR or a Spaniel. Looking at many fields going through northern France, you will see endless huge cropped wheat fields with no hedges, ditches etc... And where will the partridges be on a cold day?
Having imported quite a few dogs now, I find as Bill says " le mental" varies in many of the dogs. I have one or two so intent on finding game, they do it alone( but do get squared up) and don't glance back, fast, sorry when you get to them, but still are wilful ( doesn't help to get them at 11 months!). And others, checking with that typical glance" are you there, bird is here" wait for you, and have a softer attitude generally. But unless we breed for that, how can we expect novices to handle those " hot" hunting machines?
Hence to me, it is so important- as much as health- to know a Stud dog's temperament, to see how he handles, how he works/ retrieves etc...before using him!!! It is not because it is MALE, that it is a good enough reason to breed to a bitch. He may be an unknown quantity.
We have the responsability to make sure puppies have a chance to inherit a biddable nature as to work...but also do whatever job people buy them for.
So far, one stud has given me that kind, soft and easy attitude to life.
So, I go along with Bill on his way of thinking Wink

Victoria

Patricia

Victoria, it depends on the dog and its breeding. I have experienced the dogs who self hunt...really, and from France too!
Bill has a point.

Waldo

I've worked real hard at keeping Annie close as we hunt pretty thick terrain and I need to see what she is doing (that plus the fact it would be easy to loose her).
When we did a partridge hunt and I let her go she went and hunted at what I considered quite wide range but would turn when I wanted on the whistle and often just before I was going to blow it. Went back to the thick stuff and she wanted to go go go and it took a couple of trips to bring her back in line. The Partridge hunt was fun, but in some ways counterproductive.
To some perhaps I'm possibly restricting her but isn't it a case of hourses for courses and realistically if there is no control it may not be the dogs fault?
The "wanting to please" I would have thought would come on most occasions when the penny drops and the dog is made to realise it can't do it on it's own and hence the "pack" mentality kicks in (obviously with the handler as leader).
Cheers,
Waldo

The Plum

Only yesterday I tried to persuade a falconer that a brit might suit him well . He had already thought of the breed but has rejected it due to having seen too many unruly Brits.

Yes ,other breeds are often unruly too but Brits are beginning to earn a name for themselves as being not easy to train due to their strong indepepent streak. I think the breed needs a bit less of this trait.

The man who wanted an H.P.R. for hawking is no fool . He is a vet and has trained cockers in the past but even he thinks too many of the Brits he's seen would be beyond his ability to control.

Many of the people who want a dog for sport really need one. They keep a dog to help with that sport but the dog is not at the top of their lists of interests - the sport is , whether that is shooting or falconry. The dogs owned by such people will get short thrift if they cannot be trained to do the job reasonably easily. The brittany does not have a reputation of being an easy dog to train.

I read earlier in this thread that some handlers on the continent are now running up the fields after their dogs which are boring into the wind ? Personally I would at once consider the dog to be not working the wind properly and I would also consider it to be out of control ! I'd probably chuck it out of the trial !

Every handler in those trials should be made to carry an old unloaded shotgun. Gun safety would be made part of the trial and bad gun safety - even moderately bad , would get the perpetrator chucked out of the trial.

Et voila ! No more running being done by the handlers ! Laughing

Bill T.

Patricia

I don't think so Waldo...Some dogs have a more independant streak, they are more stubborn, they need more training...Some lines are softer. I have experienced both. I have a young bitch from the same male I used earlier on. We managed an award at our second trial because that bitch was biddable, helped me through my mistakes, had no wish to argue and wanted to please. I have some who are stronger willed, it does not make them bad and I love them fast... But the little one like her half sister, is kind, bonded and I hope we will have great fun working...together

The Plum

I am beginning to wonder if the lines of the brits "down under" are in some subtle way different from many of the lines seen in this country ?

The down under brits seem to be more "with" their handlers than so many of ours are ! Something is different and it has to be either the "lines" of the dogs - or the methods used to train them ?

Bill T.

Victoria

Waldo

Hi Victoria,
One thing I found a bit wierd when I went to the club Partridge shoot was the amount of noise via. commands (verbal and whistle) when the dogs were working, something I would not entertain when deer stalking. So I guess, no I wouldn't use a bell either. I'm probably being a bit cautious and like to keep her close so I can see what she is doing, if I had the opportunity to do more birds I may do things differently.
Cheers,
Waldo

guy

It begs the question - if you want a dog that can range 150mtrs plus either side of you in open ground and close in woodland - how does one instill this difference?

to shorten the beat with a whistle is one thing - but too much and the dog only listens to the whistle and does not pay attention to you. control with body language only works if the dog watches. In woodland the dog needs to work out of sight a bit otherwise one might as well have a spaniel.

Is the trick to get a good quartering pattern in the open before venturing in the wood, or is it better to develop a desire to stay in touch by you the handler always moving away from the dog (but to a degree this defeats the object of using a high powered nose to find game)
??

Mugi

From the outset I have worked Chase pretty much alternately in open(ish) woodland and then on fields, I also started out fairly reluctant to use my whistle as I was never sure if he was on scent and I would be calling him away from something. When on areas I knew we had little chance of game I would do my whistle work. He can and does range a fair way away but a lot of my training is done with him working closer to him just be using natural boundaries.

I find he usually is pretty in tune with me, turns when I turn my body direction etc and while he will push into new ground and sometimes loose his ears I find that to really open up his hunting I need to have a session of letting him do his own thing a little more.

Tis a fine balance with a willful little lad who has a good nose but for my first real challenge in the breed I am pleased with where we are.

Waldo

Victoria

guy

The bit I am interested in understanding is - if a dog cannot see where it is going or even has been - say in deep grass for instance - how does it not get completely disoriented? I appreciate it will work to the wind - but turn and bight size? What makes a dog stay quartering rather than run foot scent alleys?

The Plum

I am uncertain about how much temperatures affect a dogs hunting. I used to work my first Brittany ,sometimes several times a week, on the Scottish grouse moors.
During spring grouse counts I sometimes worked her in the snow with snow whirling around me. In July and early August grouse counts I often worked her in 20 + c. temperatures . Same applied to taking out paying clients to shoot the grouse.

I did carry water for my dogs but both the Brit and my G.S.P. still had to hunt from about 10 a.m. to around 4.30 p.m. I "spelled" the two dogs so probably each individual dog ran for about 3 - 4 hours. They did get tired but then even pointers get tired after that amount of running up and down Scottish hillsides !

I did find that my dogs could go longer and harder over "mixed" ground.
When I trialed I didn't allow my dogs such long hunts . Dogs often seem to learn that they will be expected to be marathon runners and some of them learn to pace themselves accordingly. I tried to not "work" my dogs for several days preceding a grouse trial.

In a trial your dog only gets 10 -15 minutes to shine in front of the judges. If you want to win at a grouse trial you train the dog to be a sprinter not a marathon runner. I found that my Brits and my G.S.P. 's were capable of turning it on in a trial or slowing to marathon speed while out grouse counting or on a shooting day.

This thread isn't about trialing but a trial dog and a shooting dog can be the same dog. If you work your dogs often enough then they do seem to work to suit what is wanted on the day provided you have used some sense beforehand !

I have never seen the cover abroad ,I can't comment on it but I can say that heather, especially "rank" heather ,is very hard going for a small dog. Even my G.S.P.'s sometimes had bleeding teats or testicles after a day on the hill. It was even harder on brittanies. Where a G.S.P. could run over the tops of the heather the brittanies had to make progress in a series of energy sucking leaps and bounds.

Keeping a decent pattern is fairly easy on a heathered hill but keeping range and pace depends on an individual dogs fitness level and on its determination to keep going to find game on hillsides where a good day out is considered to be 4 or 5 birds rather than 4 or 5 brace.

I once finished a 10a.m. to 4 p.m. day with just a 15 minute lunch break with only 3 grouse in the bag. The two guns were full of praise for the dogs ............and I was given a £50 tip ! Very Happy

Bill T.

Victoria

In my view it is all governed by scent...!!
Consider this doozie...the human nose contains about 5 million olfactory cells...the dog meanwhile has around 200 million!! Plus, because of this, a dog's nose being wet assists in their scenting. That is why, sometimes when the air is dry, the less scent they will gather, so the temperature is not so vital but the level of humanity...I love that earthy/herbaceous smell of quail, so it is easy to understand why this bird is so tantalizing to the dog with his enormous olfactory capability. And often I wonder why my dogs automatically seem to know we are after pheasants or when we are after quail...it is really only me pondering in wonderment at this but all gallinaceous birds share a common scent...there was I thinking they were telephatic!!!
There is also much ado about scent cones...on a calm, humid day, fine but nothing is going to cone out in a chippy choppy wind with ground thermals rife and as is the case here we get that wonderful breeze off the sea in the afternoon...even thirty forty kays inland, you can smell the salt in the breeze. Along the riverbeds where we do most of our pheasant hunting, you can have a variatable maze of breezes...it is just not the dogs nose as we know...that is why I am so adamant about getting puppies to know their environment...they learn to recognise the habitat etc etc...we think they are getting bolder and braver to breach a bramble bush..I do not believe it is anything to do with courage (wait on, yes it is) but that they have learnt that is where the ratbags often go to ground...as as we become more adept at whatever skill we are wanting to perfect, so too are our dogs...when you see a great hunter as a ten year old going about his business in the field it is an awesome sight...
How the scent molecules behave differently on a live bird to an wounded bird to a dead bird...fascinating stuff...

doganjo

guy

I have heard that people say the shot burn and cordite make a difference. The bit that fascinates me is a dog can cross a foot scent line and knows the direction the animal took. Just what is the difference?

The Plum

I don't think I am properly understanding your last post Guy.
That a dog can quite easily follow the scent of burning gunpowder from a shot being fired I agree with .......I've seen it happen too many times not to believe it.

Dogs must be crossing unshot at birds and animals scent lines with considerable frequency. I believe there is provision made for a dog that does a successful track on foot scent in trials.

I told the judges once in the H.P.R. Championships that my dog was following a hot foot scent and we should get to her and follow her in order to shoot the game. This is a chancy thing to do but I knew my dog.
I whistle stopped her, the judges ,the guns and myself walked out to her and I then told her to track on. She had no chance to point,the wind was wrong but she did track the moving pheasant for around 70 -80 yards and produced it for the guns. The bird was shot and she got the retrieve.
A point is not always neccessary if the dog clearly shows its handler what it is doing and the handler can stop the dog, call in the judges and the guns then have it track on command.

My alternative was to send her on a big backcast , the tracking option was more certain to produce the bird within shooting distance. A backcast might easily have caused a "wild flush" out of gunshot.

Bill T.

The Plum

P.S. - Just read your post again Guy . Maybe this answer is what you are looking for.

When a dog comes across a scent line it can almost at once distinguish which way on that scent line the animal was travelling. One direction gives a fractionally colder scent the other direction a hotter scent. A dogs nose and brain have millions of years of evolution behind them to enable the dog to very quickly discern which way to turn to catch up on the animal.

Sorry if that's not what you were getting at Guy.

Bill T.

guy

I am not sure I buy the temperature thing - after all the droplets of scent - for want of a better description are going to be so small that they will reach the ground temperature in nano seconds. So a 30 min old trail will be at exactly the same temperature.

Now if it was a case that scent was a bit like dust then I can see that the longer it has been down the greater depth of other 'dust' that could have accumulated over it.

The Plum

Perhaps then the words "colder" and "hotter" should be dispensed with. Scent disperses over time and so a dog could come across a scent trail and make a judgement of which way to go to follow the track based on tiny differences in scent volume. More scent molecules equals a "hotter" track ?

Thankfully it is my dog that is out there with a nose that actually works in front of his face and a brain with millions of years of practice behind the nose to tell the dog which way to go !

It's a "need to know" thing and thankfully I don't need to know ........ I've got a dog ! Laughing

Bill T.

where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

Re: where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

Re: where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"

Re: where have gone the Bretons" of the olden days"