guy
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working definitionRather than hijack a thread I wondered if we could explore peoples idea of the term 'working'
This is my take on it.
Gundog training is a discipline - and as such can be undertaken without owning a shotgun or shooting over your dog or even living in the country. It builds the bond between the dog and the handler, developing and enhancing what should be natural skills.
Gundog training is a very satisfying and rewarding hobby.
'Working' to me is the dog displaying all its natural skills in response to the handler. Hunting where and when it is directed, retrieving where and when it is directed, not doing anything when so instructed - that is working. Self hunting by the dog is just that self hunting, whilst it may be displaying the attributes of a working dog it is indulging its own desires.
Just as any other discipline - agility , obedience, etc the dog and handler become a team relying on each other, dependent on each other.
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Patricia
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I go along with that Guy...
Team work: important qualities. Natural and inherent wish to seek game with correct head and body position for the breed. the head carriage enabling the scent to get to the brain efficiently.
A wish to retrieve game. An "early" desire to hunt and point. Biddability in receiving commands.
In" working" the handler harnesses the dog's natural ability to its advantage. 
As the Brittanys is a rough shooting dog, I guess that would be my first priority.
But setting a Brittany different tasks are also proof of its versatility, intelligence and that is great for its "big" brain. That little dog is far too bright to be a couch potato.
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Mugi
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Ok, I will give my take.......
Working in its purest form would be dog and handler working in partnership performing the tasks the dog was bred for so Chase and Mugi would be rough shooting dogs. So would Freddy but he would work closer to handler and would work the game in deeper cover and more haphazardly. Brice would work as part of a team to track and subsequently bring down a wounded stag.
All would work at the job man has 'manufactured' them to do over years when either necessity or sport demanded certain attributes both physical and mental.
Nowadays we live a different lifestyle and as such we view dogs not only as companionable working partners but also as leisure companions (and sadly in many cases as lifestyle accessories too  ).
I see no reason to look down on a dog that competes at agility or Working Trials even if it was bred for a different job. Nature and nuture has such a part to play. Freddy loves hunting but is catatonic almost in the presence of gunfire - he could never be a shooting dog but he loved agility till his body gave up on him and he is a very very good tracking dog. He may be a pet but it is important to exercise him both physically and mentally so other activities suffice. In days gone by he might have been discarded as a useless tool (or maybe with a different start he would not be so noise phobic??) and could have had an uncertain life.
Brice is from coursing lines and sadly his modern role in life fell victim to the Hunting Ban. He still loves chasing and although as primarily a pet dog he is allowed to play chase with a chosen few companions who understand his rules  , I have worked hard on his STOP and Recall and so I can let him run free. He has also dabbled in agility and tracking and is pretty good although physically I don't let him over-do agility and he needs to use equipment that can accomodate him.
For people with imagination pet dogs can be offered many opportunities to exercise their inbred attributes for hunting even if they never get the chance to do the job for real but certain breeds/dogs will adapt to this better than others.
Mugi to me is a prime example though of how a dog shines when allowed to develop its natural apptitude, he came to me as a really happy, social and obviously well trained and loved pet. Given the opportunities the sheer joy of watching him hunt and point and go on to develop that made me aware that I personally would only want to at least offer those opportunities to a Brittany - they are multi-purpose certainly but mine both come to life only in the field.
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johnhod
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This has the possibility of developing into either a really interesting thread or one that becomes an academic exercise (in which every word contained within the definition is argued over).
I like what Patricia says, that
| Quote: | | In" working" the handler harnesses the dog's natural ability to its advantage. |
but would suggest that this can be further developed to describe working (in relation to gundogs) as "the controlled use, developed through training, of a dog's natural instincts to meet the real or perceived needs of the handler"
Reading that back it sounds as if I'm going down the academic route on this but that's not my intention.
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Patricia
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Ok John, be academic...
Working...doing a job. Fulfilling the role of his life. When 100 years ago these clever people developed the Breton. The cream of the dogs even at that time leaving standing Pointers and Setters.
Working to " fill" the bag. First purpose: to eat.
Then the pleasures of that glance back from kind soft eyes, the quivering of the whole of the dog's body. The predator instinct in harmony with the kill instinct of the shooting man.
Working to achieve perfection in the frozen action of the point, a commanded flush and finally the pure pleasure of the dog galloping back with its " treasure" and giving his precious load...
Happiness in that special relationship. 
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Annie as admin
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Until fairly recently, I thought the 'working people' were just swanks  and show offs  - 'my dog works' was like a red rag to me  My retaliation was to say that my dogs 'think they are working' because we took them into woods, fields, beaches where they could hunt, point to their hearts' content. They also pointed and retrieved on these walks. We felt there was no difference.
Since starting to train Allez I have seen the light.   Yes, the dogs may 'think' they are working - but they aren't are they? - they are just doing what they want to do for themselves, for their own gratification.
But when you start to train your dog a new dimension comes into play, they start to do it not just for themselves, but for you too - they start to look at you, and look for you if they can't immediatley see you - so that they can share with you what they have found. THAT to me is 'working'. It is that shared experience, that rapport. It is an ethereal thing.
Annie
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Patricia
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What is a swank????????????
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Annie as admin
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show off who swaggers around all puffed up with their own importance
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Victoria
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There is no finer sauce than that in knowing the meal you are about to receive is the product of the 'working' relationship between you and your dog, based upon the innate hunting attributes of both parties, fueled by the needs of the table, the desire to share food and drink with souls you admire and adore; to be replete and joyful in the ancient act of sharing and blessed by both your history and that of your dog.
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Patricia
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swanks...hummmmm
Never thought of the working people like this...Maybe you have met some horrible people. On trials, so far, I have met only people who chat as you go along waiting your turn. And some are really helpful and interested, whatever breed you have.
Whatever you get on a working event, it is down to the" partnership" and how YOU perform on the day, nothing else.
There will always be an element of folks we don't care for, whether in the show ring or the working circuit
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Annie as admin
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Patricia, I'm not talking about trial people - they were always very nice, but the non-trialling, working people who went on shoots up there were only interested in bagging as many animals (birds or rabbits) as possible with only spaniels and labs. Not at all interested in people outwith their own immediate circle nor any other breeds. They would look down on us because we were neither farmworkers(beaters and pickers up) nor landowners(shooters) We were invited to one farm shoot when we first arrived but it appeared we didn't fit in either category(we worked in town and we only had 21 acres) so weren't invited back. Those are swanks at both ends of the scale.
Hopefully, this area will be better, with help from some of the FT people down here.
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Patricia
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Ah!!!!!!! Well you are back into " civilisation" then!!!
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Annie as admin
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He he - not quite Just three hours closer
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Britmania
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It is really interesting how your definitions are subtly different from ours here, down-under (in NZ anyway).
For what it is worth, these are my personal interpretations:
A WORKING gundog is one which is able to perform to the best ability of what the breed was bred for in all roughshooting situations.
Here in NZ, the Brittany is used as a hunting companion for deer (and other big game such as chamois and thar)as well as small fur game (rabbits and hares) and bird game (pheasants, quail,chukkor). They are rapidly gaining a reputation for being smart as well as fast, biddable and able to cope in all conditions.
Because we all have access to the great outdoors all year around, no one in NZ is excluded or made unwelcome. It is commonly known that to gain access to large properties one only needs to seek permission from the owner to enter.
An example of this was just this weekend gone, my son Blair went on an organised 4WD trip into the High Country (at the foot of the Southern alps). He was on a 10,000 hectare station in the middle of nowhere, when his group came across a couple of hunters who had been in the area shooting wallabies. They had a gundog with them (a springer spaniel - but we will forgive them that..) and had bagged three wallabies and were on their way home. They all stopped for a cuppa and a yarn about their respective exploits in the area.
GUNDOG TRAINING to me has two branches - there is a significant difference between simply training a dog to hunt and training a dog to hunt FOR you. The dog will do a much better job if it is "in tune" with its handler and is looking for game to please its master - rather than one that is just turned loose in the hope that it will use its natural talents to stumble over a game scent.
I agree that self hunters are doing their own thing - because they can.
In my experience male dogs are more guilty of this and it is very frustrating to deal with. In the end, basic obedience is the answer because a dominant personality is often at the root of it all.
It is interesting that Guy mentions a dog "hunting where and when it is directed;retrieving where and when it is directed and not doing anything when so instructed" because this is exactly what our pointer and setter trials are all about - that is why we like them so much. They are simulated hunting and when competence at the trials is achieved, the dogs performance out in a hunting situation is greatly enhanced.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Thats put very nicely Chris, so we can all relate to it. Thank You. Time we came out for another fix at your trials 
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Victoria
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We've got the NZ's just down the road from home this October, Jan just 25k away...
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Not near those caves 
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Victoria
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No, nor the hotel from hell
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