| Archive for The Brittany Forum For all friends of the versatile Brittany |
| Patricia |
working dog versas show dogI am carrying on the thread from Ch show week end.The way I look at it. Gundogs were designed to do a job and it is not fair to take away their instincts by not selecting for the nose quality, strong pointing ability and of course, sometimes a weakness in the retrieving side. I would never select a male dog which I had never seen in the field to see what it is made of. But nor would I choose an ugly dog just because he worked really well. If I have to live with a dog, he/ she has to be pleasing to the eye 
I intensly dislike bow legged Springers with long back, but also don't agree with all the coat of the show Springer. So, in my view, a show dog should have a minimum test to check his instincts remain, and it should be something higher than a TAN.( which is very basic!) I know many do but is it enough for Stud dog selection and the improvement of the breed? I would like to know as John states, if some Brittanys really are getting that poor in the field?? I'll probably get shot down in flames now!!! We know how it works in France, how about Germany...as I never had time to finish asking Andrea.... |
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| Dave A |
At this moment in time we need both , one for confirmation type etc and the other to maintain the working ability that i for one was drawn to.
We are still fortunate to have breeders who show and work and long may this continue, i only work my dogs ( at this point ) but in the litters my youngest 2 came from you will find sh Ch's as well as dogs ( like mine ) who only work and some that do both , The problems start to arise, in my view, when breeders go along only one of the paths and ignore the other, you then end up with the odd mixtures that make up other more popular Gundog breeds which barely resemble each other let alone breed standard. this is just my opinion and probably to simplistic for some, but if i have another Britt i will be looking at the dams working/show background as well as the sire ( who i would prefer to have a good dollop of french tr blood ) as i require more than a pretty face 
Dave A |
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| Mugi |
If you want a dual purpose breed you need to select for ability, if you want a dog of a specific breed you need to select for conformation which has surely been deliberately bred for over a good number of years to enable the dog to do a job.
For me, I want a dog that can work and can be seen to be a good specimen (showing as an additional pastime is nice too but not if the dog really dislikes it as the dog cares nothing for rosettes, titles etc to be happy and fulfilled). However, like Patricia I like a dog to look appealing - it doesn't have to be stunning but it does have to have something and ugly would be difficult to live with. Mind you, beauty being in the eye of the beholder we as individuals all find different things appealing even some breeds I think are truly awful visually.
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| guy |
I think it is unfortunate that the only criteria that really counts is FT CH and CH in the ring. If we continue to mate Ch or Sh Ch to Ch or Sh Ch or even FT CH to FT Ch (if we had them) we will be on a hiding to nothing.
We must not loose sight of the fact that the Brittany was developed as a GUNDOG nothing else. The fact it can lend itself to other disciplines is fantastic but at the end of the day it is a gundog. We must also not loose sight of the fact that not everyone wants to use a Brittany as a gundog. This does not detract from either the owner or the dog, all it does is take the dog out of the pool of proven gundogs. At the moment the only way to 'prove' a gundog is at FT. This is unfortunate as to achieve a win requires not only dedication to the task but also great ability as a trainer - some way of grading a dogs ability against a standard would be a much better IMHO . We need some way of measuring and publishings a dog's ability other than by FT so that sensible judgements can be made over breeding decisions. I think it odd that those who only use the 'ring' to assess a dog feel they have custody of the breed standard. One does not need to be a sheep to tell good mutton! |
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| doganjo |
A lot of sense in this - but stats come into this too -3500 Brits in the UK at any one time (seems to remain fairly static over the years) about 100/150 max shown, a handful trialled - where are the other 3400? For sure they ain't in purely pet homes or we'd have a lot more coming on rescue. They are WORKED ! That's what! |
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| johnhod |
So can mongrels, so what does that prove? |
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| johnhod |
You'd certainly hope this to be the case but I fear that we will return to the arguements that followed Crufts when the American Cocker won. Sure it was a good example of the breed but a gundog????????????????? |
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| Patricia |
So how about Stud selection?
I can see where Guy is coming from with the field trials. Indeed, I feel there may be better results should we put our dogs in the hands of Professionals!!!
Spring pointing tests are a good way of seeing a dog and measuring the quality of its nose on wild game? As for working tests, a willingness to retrieve dummys is more than useful. BUT...Some Brittanys hate dummys even though they are meant to do as they are told and retrieve any article. I would personally rather select on Spring test or field trial. Not that I mean the dog should be necessarily a field trial Ch, but for me to choose a Stud, I would prefer to see it quarter, point and retrieve keenly. But importantly too, have a pliable and biddable nature. I would not go on " hear say" that it works because the owner says so... I really liked the " working " book for field dogs in France. This can be seen in the livre d'elevage. There can be many " results" but if you look, it will say if not classed, eliminated, no occasion etc..as well as the CACT etc...In that case, you can take the results as true...and not promotion of a mediocre dog. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
You'd certainly hope this to be the case but I fear that we will return to the arguements that followed Crufts when the American Cocker won. Sure it was a good example of the breed but a gundog?????????????????[/quote]
That one may not have been a gundog John but when the breed was first brought into the UK there were two that made FT Ch and they were also shown with success. |
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| johnhod |
Exactly and now the working ability has been bred out of them in favour of over exagerating a breed standard to the ponit where it looks more like a mop than a dog. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
No idea, there may be some working you don't know for certain. There are lots in the USA that work.
I do agree that the ridiculous coat American Cockers have in the showring is not doing them any favours as a working/pet dog. But that applies to a lot of breeds and not just gundogs. Lets face it, if the Brittany was built exactly like the Callac Cob statue then it wouldn't be able to work either. |
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| Patricia |
The difference is the Callac Cob is a ...statue! so the sculptor can be forgiven!!! 
But, what was wrong with a normal Cocker in the first place? To then develop a"mop" like John says? Anyway, if you are going to work one of those, you'de need to shave all that hair! as for the feet and clods of mud! No gundog should be that coated it becomes soggy, matted and unmanageable 
Then I'd be out of business! I remember a landowner working a Show type Springer. He used to ask me to shave it...like a Pointer to keep him clean and dry. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
I have no idea Patricia, no doubt someone bred a pup they liked the look of, kept it and it went on from there. The American Cockers that I remember from the late 60s didn't have so much coat and were quite capable of doing a days work. So it is a classic case of them becoming popular as pets/show [because there must have been some that didn't work] and bingo you eventually have a different type. This is how breeds evolve and why we have so many different ones now. I remember the Rough Collie back then and you wouldn't give one from the 60/70s a second glance now as the modern day Collies, and Shelties, have so much more coat in comparison that they look like overstuffed, hairy pillows. |
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| Anne Eissing |
For your interest I will schow you the situation we have in Germany:
The brittanys are only given to hunters, so the absolutely most of the brittanys in Germany are really working dogs. But the german hunters think nothing of show the dogs. So we have the problem that the standard in germany is not so important for the hunters, only the achievement at work is essentially. Therfore we have problems to hold the standard of the brittanys and we have particularly many too light brits from time to time. The tests you have to pass for breeding with your brittany are very ambitious on the working side, HPR tests with examiantion subjects of natural aptitudes and training. And particularly the most german hunters emphasise the water work of the dog to seperate the wheat from the Chaff concerning passion, toughness, the will to stand it. These are attributes the german hunter wanted the HPR-dogs to have. Field Trial work isn´t very popular in Germany. To test the natural aptitudes particularly for pointing dogs is obligatorily when the dogs are young. In the first 18 months you have to do a test which is one of the qualifications for breeding. You see, the working side of the brittany is tested very intensiv. Otherwise you only have to get a "Tres Bon" at one show for breeding with the dog. Some years ago the judges at the annual club show judged too "friendly" and at that time you only have to get a "Bon" for breeding. So in Germany we have the problem that many brittanys are really good HPRs but haven´t a good standard. So efforts are made by the german club to interest the members more in the standard by interest them entering shows and taking stud dogs with good standard from france for mating their bitches. And the club regularly try to engage a french judge for the club show so the standard will be payed more attention. I for myself think the dual purpose of working and standard is the only way to save the real brittany. |
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| barbara |
An interesting post, thank you Anne. | ||||
| kandjt |
A very interesting thread with some thought provoving points which I believe have some far reaching implications for the Brittany.
I had a quick look at the KC site to see if I could get to grips with the number of Brits in the country, but couldn't find anything concrete. It appears that over the last ten years that on average there are around 130 registrations a year, of these I'm not sure whether they are only new puppies or if it counts transfers and renaming as well. I see from the Health survey carried out on the breed that the KC sent out questionnaires to 225 Brittany owners, of the 24% that were returned the average number of dogs owned by each owner was 2. Again I am unsure of the size of the sample, but from these figures I would guesstimate that the number of registered Brittanys is nearer 1500 than 3000. Annie I'm afraid that I fail to follow your logic on the number of working Brits, it seems a huge leap from a lack of rescued pet dogs to the majority being working dogs. It seems to me that a major cause of misunderstanding is in agreeing on what constitutes a working dog and hopefully this thread will help to clarify the problem. The Brittany as I see it is a HPR gundog and as such I would expect a working Brittany to fulfill all these functions in full, ie. a working Brit in Britain should hunt using the wind and contours of the ground, find and point game, hold the point until commanded to flush, drop or sit to flush/shot and then retrieve to hand. I know the Brittany is a versatile dog and my dogs have worked with falconers, been beating, pigeon decoying, been peg dogs and my youngest bitch is undergoing tracker training so she can come deerstalking with me. If the Brittany is to continue as a working HPR gundog then surely the minimum they must be trained to is carry out all three functions in a disiplined and controlled manner. I do not show my dogs, partly through lack of interest and partly through not enjoying the experience in the past, however I have a keen interest in maintaining a good standard in the breed. I have in the past asked if it was possible for dogs who are not shown to undergo some sort of examination to ascertain their confirmation. After all it is possible for a SH CH to pass a single test to become a CH, but I believe a FTCH doesn't have an equivilent route. I stand in awe of those dogs and their handlers who obtain Dual Champion status. If we are to think about alternative ways of testing working abilities then there should be alternatives to the show ring? Keith |
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| doganjo |
I agree, Keith, I have said before that FT Chs should have to pass at least a conformation test. I can't see a problem with the Club setting this up but, of course, it mightn't get past the KC. However, if a FT CH is entered at a champ show and is awarded a 1st in say Open or Limit with at least three in the class, I would consider that sufficient.
As to numbers - the database gives the approximate total of 3350, after discounting death rates and dogs outwith the UK of say 50%, and adding back about the same number of unregistered dogs, I made an educated guess of 3500. We know how many are regularly shown, and also regularly trialled. Many unregistered Brittanys are owned by falconers so they are worked - if a Brittany is purely a pet, they might not have the exercise and mind stretching activities they need so are more likely to come on rescue. That was my logic path. |
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| Waldo |
I'd like to pose this question, does someone (like me) who wants a dog to serve a dual purpose role of family companion and hunting companion select a pup based on perceived hunting ability or temperment?
I have read many times that some puppy buyers insist on buying from a breeder who actively hunts with their dogs as a gauge of hunting ability in their new pup. Is this really a valid point, given that at 8-10 weeks of age when most are likely to select a pup, hunting experiences for the pup will be non-existent. I personally at this stage would rather choose a pup from a breeder who has really put the effort into socialising the pup and whose parents were of sound temperment. Given that hunting (in my novice view) is something that would be naturally in most pups and the single biggest difference between a dog that can or can't hunt is the opportunity and training to get it there? Am I going off on some wierd tangent here? Cheers, Waldo |
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| Patricia |
Waldo, all you need to do...Go and see a litter, ask the owners to take the dog out( if it is allowed on the land at the time). See it quarter, gauge its biddability, ask to see the dog do a retrieve. Then, hopefully, the dog will also live in the house. See how friendly it is, or are, if both parents are owned...
Is the bitch of a confident nature, friendly and sociable? Neither timid, uneasy in the home etc? Are the pups in the house and socialised with maybe children, cats, noises ie vacuun cleaner, dishwasher etc? Are the parents well looked after? I have been around many kennels in France and am shocked to have seen at times pups with no bedding, just on wood, hairy and in kennels blocks. Trust your instinct, but if the dam works well and is mentally balanced, that should pass onto the puppies. So, yes, the hunting side is important as it proves selection. I think both temperament and working ability should go hand in hand. |
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| guy |
Waldo - i do not think you are off at a tangent - the question is the crux one. Do you buy a house dog that hunts or a hunting dog that is good in the house?
I have had close contact with four now. All have been of excellent temperament. Two have been rescues or rehomes so there was no chance to know of the dams attitudes. The first thing i would say about both these dogs is they are/were of beautiful disposition and temperament; i would however offer the caveat that in this household the dog's place is very well and clearly defined for them. The live in the house and are always with us but when it comes to who is in charge there is no contest. I have also two who work to a pretty high standard - by all accounts. One would normally be labelled of 'show decent' however he has amazing abilities, when he works your heart can race and the hair on your neck rise. The other from a hunting household who have a high regard for conformation as well as ability. Having spent many many hours out with both of them I would say the hunting background one is easier to train and works better with me. Again a caveat - one is a dog and one a bitch. Do not be lulled into thinking that all puppies of 'hunting dams' will be good and do not fall into the trap that all dogs born to 'show dams' are poor. Within each litter will be variations. As Patricia says the first step is see how the bitch behaves - either first hand or by anecdote (It is reckoned 60% of traits come from the bitch I believe). The next step I think is to see the puppies, see how they each relate to you - after all you want a partnership not an arranged marriage. The simple little tests of carrying a sock, interest in the new, reaction to a hand clap, and even general demeanour all help to increase your chances of having a super adult dog in what is quite a lottery. At the end of the day I bet the puppy chooses you. |
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| highclare |
Sorry I must go back a few posts to defend the AM Cocker. I just love people who make sweeping statments about other breeds they no NOTHING about.
Yes it is true they do have loads of coat as do Newfoundlands who with there heavy coat have the ability to save peoples lives out at sea. I have worked 2 Am Cockers (with the coat cut off). I have made one a full champion and I am currantly training an Afterglow Am Cocker. The Am Cocker is a great worker so quick and obedient, so willing to please. I have watched the Am Cocker work for years and love them. People who say they like to work there dogs proberbly only see or work only one breed. That is fine but until you have seen or worked several breeds in gundogs then what you said has NO substance!!!!!! Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
You tell em girl 
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| guy |
Do AM cockers compete AV Spaniel to gain their FT CH status or are they one of the breeds the KC confine to their own trials? | ||||
| Patricia |
I for one don't apologise ...for a gundog which is so coated up  It is not waterproof ? Why design a dog for working with that much hair? And if it is , then why cut it off???
I do groom one and the hair is thick but silky and does knot up( on the one I do anyway) |
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| Patricia |
Quote]People who say they like to work there dogs proberbly only see or work only one breed.
For ourselves, Alan and I have owned a Field Spaniel when we were first married. Sheba was worked ( or tried to be ) most of the season but I freely admit she was quite useless It took Alan a great number of times to get her to retrieve and it was on moorhen in the pond. She was highly strung too. That put me off minority Spaniels.
Alan has worked Labs since his childhood, but Brittanys took over when I came along 
I have also had a working Cocker who was a Speedy Gonzales and had a passion for pigeons. She was given to a friend as she was possessive of me and did not like the Brits coming for a fuss. My personal preference is and always will be Brittanys, I simply click with the way they are, work and their enthousiasm for life. I, however have always owned other dogs from different groups, from Chow Chow, Mini Poodle to Bouvier, Scotties and now a Cirneco d'ell Etna who definitely works. [/quote]
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Has this dog been neutered Patricia I also used to groom an A/C that had to be clipped off, her coat was OK up until she was spayed then it was dreadful. She used to go out and hunt the hedgerows and have a whale of a time getting muddy. Her owner used to moan like hell about her but refused to stop her doing it because she liked it so much.
The A/C in the USA is still worked by a lot of people. No doubt, like the Springers and Cockers over here, they have one type for work and one for show. However I think that to make a sweeping statement that ALL members of a breed do not work based on a couple of examples is just a bit silly. After all not all Brittanys work despite the breed not yet being split into show/work [thank goodness]. Some dogs just don't have the drive to work whatever their breed and there is not much we can do about it except not breed from those individuals if we are intent on keeping the working characteristics. |
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| johnhod |
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| kandjt |
I for one wouldn't like to comment on the working ability of the Am cocker, because I can honestly say that in the 25 years I've been involved with working gundogs I have never seen one in the field. From the KC website I see that on average nearly three times as many Am Cockers are registered than Brittanys, as this is a similar number to other gundog breeds such as the Spinoni, Bracco etc, I find it surprising that I have not seen them in the field.
Jan, there may have been Am Cocker FTCH in the past but I see from the Am Cocker Club of GB that a CH has been made up in the field, the first in 30 years. In the critique of the test I saw I couldn't find any reference to hunting ability or steadiness to flush. If we are serious about dual purpose gundogs then the dog that is presented in the show ring should be able to perform in the same confirmation in the field and vice versa. Trimming a dog to enable it to work in the field surely changes its appearance and confirmation. I assume an Am Cocker trimmed for the field wouldn't be shown until its coat had grown? Essentially since 2007 there are working and show Brittanys, by definition any Brittany legally docked since 2007 has to be a working dog. However, such a dog cannot be shown at Crufts other than to demonstrate its working ability not its confirmation and as Crufts is seen as the pinnacle of the show world legal working Brittanys are unable to compete on an equal footing. I'm sure that by looking at the evolution of the Am Cocker there are many lessons the Brittany world can learn. Keith |
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| Patricia |
I have not said ALL American Cockers don't work. What I mean is: Why design a gundog furnished with ALL that coat???? Very impractical. The American stems from the Cocker? What did the latter not do in the working field to design another breed?
And on another note: what does" work" consist of??? How far would you expect an efficient quartering pattern? How good is the retrieve, how biddable is the dog? Like it has been rightly pointed out to me- which I had not thought of - hard mouth, wingeing, even gunshyness, reluctance to swim etc... You can say those dogs work? |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
By 1972 Dick Wylde, of the Eldwythe prefix, had made up to their full title two American Cockers. In 2007 Mrs Knapper-Weijlands had also made up her bitch to its full title. Several others had managed to put Ch in front of their dogs in place of Sh Ch.
American Cockers are bred to do exactly the same as English Cockers they are after all more or less the same breed. As with most coated breeds dogs that are shown tend to develop more & more coat especially if a. the coat is looked after and b. the dog is not allowed to fullfill its natural function and hunt in thickets, hedgerows etc. which tend to tear out the coat. Just out of interest Keith how does trimming a dogs coat alter its conformation Surely the structure of the dog remains the same with or without the hair
The whole issue of docking for work and then not being able to show that dog is crazy. If your working dog is [presumably] of good confirmation then surely it would be best for that dog, and the breed, to be seen, not only in the field but also in the ring. Which is what got me started on the subject in the first place 
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| highclare |
Well said Jan.
To put a note on that I have been to the Show Spaniels Field Day for the last 25 years and seen a succession of Am Cockers work, some getting there Qualifier's most not good enough to win 3 CCs but if they did they would be full Champions. Bill Ironside (of Clumber fame) has had 2 Am Cockers who over the last 6 years have been unbeatable in the field. Not only winning the advanced test but getting the best performance of the day every year. Oh by the way Bill is the worsed trainer in the world, the 2 little bitches work there hearts out for him it is a pleasure to watch them. Gill and that Mabeleen. |
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| guy |
Gill - can you explain 'the advanced test' for us? | ||||
| The Plum |
I don't often post on here. This subject though is one that interests me .
To begin with the cockers . I am very pleased to hear that AM cockers can still work but can a test or trial designed - and marked - for the other spaniel breeds than the usual cocker or springer be used as a fair yardstick for how well a breed works ? To be a serious contender as a trial dog shouldn't a dog have to beat the best that can come up against it ? I am against HPR "breed" trials - no dog should ever get K.C. recognition on its pedigree as a worker unless it is able to hold its end up against the other HPR breeds. Brittanies are capable of doing that and I would hate to see the brit breed lessened by "breed only" trials. If recognition for a lower standard is available people will aim for it. In well over 40 years of going to all kinds of shoots I haven't seen a single AM cocker being worked ...........they seem to be as rare at shoots as hens teeth - or Brittanies ! How many people on this forum regularly see Brits at the shoots they attend - if they attend them ! ??? The Brits need to be presented to the shooting people - not to the show people ! The breed has more than enough show interested people talking about conformation it needs far more work interested people demanding performance to go with the conformation. Those that cannot,will not or do not work should not be bred from. I am in favour of having working dogs pass a conformation test in a showring before they are bred from . Show dogs make CH. after what is I.M.O. a rather simple working test. Though I am aware that many find it a hard test to pass ! Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander , a trial winning brittany should be able to enter a showring , be shown to fulfil minimum conformation requirements and leave the ring as a CH. I am equally in favour of showdogs having to pass a working test on real ,live game that includes all aspects of retrieving . Water, the dogs mouth , reasonable steadiness, and a willingness to be handled when retrieving. I would expect most brits to pass the hunting and pointing tests but the willingness to be handled would cause failures as would the retrieve requirements. Dogs that failed that test should not be bred from . They are not Hunt Point Retrievers if they cannot pass such a basic test of working ability and willingness to please a handler. If you want to keep a breed up to a good working standard as well as a good standard of conformation then the work side of things will have to be given considerably more importance. I will always choose working ability over conformation . I don't play at keeping gundogs - I actually NEED my dogs to work . Too many people with brits take the opposing viewpoint ...........they need their dogs to show. Bill T. |
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| Mugi |
Where I beat we had the odd situation the other day of 2 Brits, 2 HV's and 1 GSP which as a group meant HPR's outnumbered spaniels or retrievers in the beating line:wink: .
The shoot owner has no problem what dogs work as long as they don't ruin the drives and he was very supportive to Mugi - when I spoke to him before this season started he was pro-Breton! |
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| The Plum |
I will change the wording to " how many brits do you see at the shoots you attend other than your own !"
I regularly go a shoot up here that has G.S.P.'s , GWHP 's , weimies , Slovakian wotsits, hairy viszlas and non hairy viszlas but no brits whatsoever unless I take Belle there. The keeper welcomes any dog that can work and be controlled ,two border collies work there .............but still no brits other than my own have appeared. Bill T. |
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| johnhod |
Well said Bill. I don't need mine to work but they do. I want them to work because in my opinion a dog that can't or won't work in the field isn't worthy of being called a gundog, no matter what the KC has to say on the matter. |
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| Patricia |
Thank you Bill for coming back
Around here, in Sufolk, the shoots are driven and consist of Springers and Labs. When Alan asked( though we don't need land to shoot on) to maybe pick up with a young dog, it was obvious the shooters weren't very keen. We are lucky to have the N&S HPR club who come to work and have training days here, and a friend fom their commitee who actually helps us a good deal.
Do you think we mismanage our youngsters? I will quote Patrick in saying" No dog is born bad, nor is a person born a terrorist!" Do you think we let them down in training? Do we leave the instinct to be woken up too late? Are some of us too inexperienced and we let the dog get away with sloppy retrieves for instance? Are some too soft in their handling? Should we consider better breeding stock? Thanks Bill for your input!!! I want to better my dogs and not let them down, why is the Brittany the most popular shooting dog in France but does not get a look in here? |
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| Patricia |
Carrying on the subject of working dogs, there is a really interesting subject on the French Forum..." what of the "olden days" Bretons?
The dog who used to work closer and on all types of game , who was closer to the gun, was more attentive to its master etc... Compared to the ones who nowdays wear elecric collars on a regular basis, bumping game, running riot etc...Definitely people have less time to spend hours training their dogs, going out shooting with their pal... One interesting point was made when comparing Field dogs and rough shooting dogs. The " Ferrari" of the dog world quarters faster, finds game wherever it is and because of the power of its nose, " pins" the game down and dominates it. But...the latter will need experienced trainer and will be harder to train having a strong & willful temperament. He will be superb in the right hands. The slower dog may have a more pliable and obedient nature and hence will be easier to handle. Ease of training and biddability is hereditary. Food for thought. I have definitely found that in a couple of my dogs, who won't give you " the two fingers"
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| highclare |
So the Advanced test Guy.
Normal spaniel working tests are simple using dummies for the novice test and dead game for the open test. The field is set so the compeditor has a judge behind him and a gun to one side. Then the judge determines the test with the standard criteria of 1. Hunting all the ground infrount of it. 2. flush the game without running in (no live game in this test). 3. drop to shot. 4. retrieve tenderly to hand after some bloke has first throwen it. Now with the advanced test, the field is set like a normal beating day with 2 compeditors working at the same time. Two judges both have to be on the KC pannel. There are a number of guns with live ammo. The 2 dogs have to work the line flush live game, drop to shot and have to retrieve tenderly to hand. Sometimes if one spaniel flushes the other one has to sit still the hole time while the other finds the game. It can happen that the first spaniel dosn't fine the game the other one is brought across to see if it can find it. If the second finds the game then the first spaniel is put out of the test. Sometimes neither find the game but the judges are sure the game is there and the next dog waiting in line gets its chance to knock both the others out. If this dog dosn't fine then all dogs stay in the test. It can be all fun and games sometimes and I have had years of enjoyment out of. The qualifier is the same but with an added water test, if they do not swim they do not get there qualifier. The rules have changed in reacent years ref field trials for minor spaniels, they are excactly as for the major spaniel breeds. The reason that the minor breeds are such is because there would be no chance of a minor breed ever getting a run in a field trial. So don't think that the minor spaniel breeds like the Wss, Fields, Clumbers, Am Cockers and Sussex get it easy because they do not FACT. Anyone wishing to find out about what other gundogs do in the field then you can get the rule/year book from the KC instead of making sweeping statments about other gundog breeds they only know little about. I do agree the Am Cocker has a stupid amount of coat something the Americans designed I think. When not neuted the top coat is totally water proof and if working the skirt is cut off. The ones I have trained have first finnished there showing life and can concentrate on work training. The full gundog group would be poorer for not having the little Am Cocker in it. Gill and the Mabeleen. |
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| The Plum |
I am probably the worlds worst computer user so please excuse me for not making a very good job of the above quotes from a post. Question 1 asnswer - I don't really know as I see so few brittanies ! Question 2 answer - No dog is born bad - but some are born badder than others ! Question 3 answer - In most cases - yes !!! The retrieve instinct in particular needs early awakening or the hunt instinct will often supplant it. I get fed up hearing - not just with brittanies but with ALL breeds of hunting dogs, HPR's and spaniels - that " I thought I'd train him that next week /next month ......Next year - NEVER !" I am now a NOBS trainer for Scotland and I help train a lot of various gundog breeds, I also have a few people I meet on a 1-2-1 basis. I have even been known to try to help people over the internet ! One of the most common causes of trouble is retrieves. I usually end up doing remedial training at a late stage in a pups life when the ship may have already sailed as far as awakening the retrieve instinct is concerned.
I was out picking up today and I was handling 3 cockers aged 11months, 17 months and 28 months and 1 GSP aged 34 months. I have no shooting of my own and I don't have any land other than Public land to train my dogs on . I am on the disabled register yet I still train my dogs and I still work them. ................. I stop talking about it once in a while and get out there and train it and do it ! Keeping 4 very keen hunting dogs steady during a day that produced 140 birds isn't easy but if I can do it with 4 dogs at a time with my very poor mobility plus a dodgy heart then surely the average Joe Soap should be able to control a brittany ! It's only a dog ! Stop wishing and get out into the world and do it ! ..............Better breeding stock ?? - I don't give a toss if a dog of mines wins at shows . I don't care what a brittany looks like - if it can and does work like stink ! If you want working dogs then breed from working stock that might show , not from show stock that might work for too many of them do not. Popular in France but not popular here with shooting men ??? No blooming wonder ! Some of the Brits going about are verging upon being untrainable ! Word of this does get around . Some years ago one of Britains top pointer.setter trialers who is an "A" Panel judge for those breeds and who has won their championships watched me work my Brittany at a shoot. He walked straight over to me , swept off his hat , bowed then put out his hand for me to shake. I thought he was taking the mickey but he wasn't . He had tried to train a Brittany and failed ! His words to me were , " I take my hat off to any man who can train one of those f*****g things !" 
He'd got his hands on one of the all too frequent brits with very little inclination to work with a handler. If a man with his ability and depth of experience had bother trying to train a Brittany then what chance does the "average" bloke who wants a decent chance of eventually having a gundog for his rough shooting etc. have of buying a decent puppy that actually wants to work with him ? There are too many work unproven dogs going around and being bred from. By work I mean dogs easily capable of doing the full H.P.R. and of doing it well - on game . I think a dog should have to pass a test of its working abilities before being bred from. This would mean that some "lines" would fail and become extinct . I am all in favour of that. Keep the dogs that can work and maybe show - dump the rest, they are doing nothing to improve the breeds image in the eyes of shooting men. Just some happy little thoughts from off the top of my head !
Bill T. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
I couldn't find one with a big stick Bill but you get the gist
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| The Plum |
YUP !
Bill T. |
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| doganjo |
Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much. 
It's getting boring, Bill.
And anyway, if you want to put people off buying and attempting to train and work Brittanys you're on the wrong forum
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| johnhod |
PLEASE stay where you are Bill. Your comments are a ray of sunshine and coming as they do from someone with your years of experience and knowledge of a variety of gundog breeds they difinitely carry more weight with me than many of the other postings to this forum.
I for one have learned so much from reading your training diaries, training tips and via PMs on a number of training problems on this and other forums. |
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| The Plum |
If I bore you Annie then go back to sleep. Sorry to have woken you.
I was asked questions - I answered them - truthfully. Bill T. |
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| guy |
I feel we are beating ourselves up unnecessarily here . What proportion of the spaniel and retriever population is of field quality? and what proportion of brittanys occupy that category?
This concept of 'dual purpose' seems slightly flawed to me unless of course 'showing' a dog is a purpose for its existence. Unfortunately we seem to have two camps - camp one says the best dog is the best looking one that can work whilst camp two says that the best dog is the one that works best and is good looking. With only one dual champion ever in this country ever i fear the 'dual purpose' idea is rather overplayed. A FT winner is a truly magnificent animal (whatever its breed) as it is doing to the highest standard that which it was original developed for - they are FT champions not because the test is a glorified TAN but because they work in partnership with their handler - it is however a given that dogs of this calibre are very hard to train (I don't say handle because at this level they don't appear to be handled). Currently there are only two people who have proven their ability to handle Brittanys at this level. We should therefore look for another way of determining working ability so that sound judgements are made about breeding what is or should be primarily a working dog. Mere protestations of ones dog's excellence are in my mind insufficient. Alongside this I fail to see the logic that says breeding ShCh to ShCh will maintain an excellence in the field - we all know how much a litter of puppies varies and it is only by refined selection that we will develop the dogs for the future. I feel we must take a step back- there is not a deep 'working' culture within the Brittany Club. To address this some form of policy needs to be developed that puts in place a considered programme of training and provides a measured programme of testing on an objective basis. Dogs can be measured to a standard and not just against each other. Other disciplines have a lot of skills that cross over to gundog work and these could easily be mapped into such a scheme - obedience, agility, good citizen provide proof of the dogs abilities in certain areas. We are never going to have everyone with a working gundog - nor perhaps should we. Those of us who do have trained working dogs are the privileged - we know what it is like to have one - or more that does what it is told (most of the time) and we have the bond with our dogs that only training and working together gives. IMHO the only thing that beats watching a good dog use its knowledge and experience in the field is handling that dog. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Actually there are three people if you count John Lambert, Angie Lewis and Rory Major. | ||||
| guy |
Poor old Bill Pearson forgotten again. 
I did say currently as I was alluding to Bill and Rory as they are the only ones with current dogs. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Sorry Guy, I hadn't really forgotten Bill just read it wrongly
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| Anne Eissing |
Our experiences in Germany show that the brittany can be trained in HPR like all other gundogs too. So it is at least a decision of the club board what kind of dog it will advance and save. And if the working brittany should be more developed in the club, I think the most effective way to wake the interest for the excellent allround hunting qualities of the brittany is to run the brittany on shooting days like Bill said.
I IMHO agree with Bill that a basic gundogtraining who will be tested should be incumbent on saving the working brittany. In Germany many brittany owners who hasn´t much trainingexperience give the dog to pros who train the dogs and do the workingtests. In all countries the local shooters associations offer special training classes for unexperied dogowners to train the dogs for the workingtests. So the most newcomers pass the tests. A dual purposed dogs must not be a champion in both disciplines. But I prefer a basic confirmation of the natural gundog aptitudes and also of the standard as a condition for breeding with the brittany. |
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| kandjt |
Hi Bill, welcome back. I for one have missed you, (and Des), your contributions are interesting and informative, always, contentious, sometimes, but boring, never. Hope you continue to post on the forum.
Guy, from your comments I assume that you are advocating a structured system of testing similar to that used by the American Versatile Gundog Club rather than that used by The Gundog Club? Do you envisage it being tailored specifically for Brittany's or for HPR's in general? Keith |
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| guy |
Keith - i have not fully thought it through, but i have been a bit involved in a testing scheme for versatile dogs in the UK. In Germany the Brittany is quite capable of doing the HZP (I can email you the tests in English) which include carrying a fox, swimming for 10 mins at least and hunting from the water. However I do not think they fully reflect what we might want from a Brittany in the UK. The gundog club schem I don't believe has got HPRs fully sorted yet.
The next problem with structured tests is very few would be able to do them as we don't train for that sort of thing - constant disappointment or underachievement would disenfranchise people and so any 'full blown' scheme would never get off the ground. It would have to be something driven by an interested group. Any club based scheme I personally would like to see accredit abilities from other disciplines. There is little point in reinventing the wheel so here is a link to a piece of work done by another. Might not suit all Brittany owners or Brittanys but unless we start somewhere we will still be talking about it in ten years time. JMHO http://hprs.info/vgwarsuk/WATSUKdraft2.pdf |
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| highclare |
This is all very interesting all this banter about working v showing but I think people have dogs for all different reasons, mostly there own reasons and with Tesco's full of food a Brittiany is worked for pleauser not for necessity. So if you enjoy only working your dog then great and if you only want to show your dog thats great too. I feel this subject of "you have to work your dog or you are not a real gundog person is total crap. I have people who have emailed me in the last few days telling me that they 1. do not have time to work and train there dog and 2. it dosn't interest them. They also feel that the people who bang on about you have to work your dog is putting them off having there say at all.
I feel this subject is going around in circles and is only being used as weind up subject for people who wouldn't see both sides of a coin if there lives depended on it. I have enjoyed working my dogs in the past but have never suggested to other breed members that they have to nor have I ever said to them that they should only breed from working stock. The experts in an breed should be there to help and guide new and inexperienced owners in ALL aspects of the breed. What ever you beleive in the most commen thing we should ALL be in agreement with is the health of the breed. Gill and the Mabeleen. |
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| Patricia |
Again apologies if I offend anyone about all this...Whatever we do with our dogs is fine. Anything to occupy their mind is brilliant and fulfills the dog. As long as we are talking about "pets".
When it comes to breeding stock and though we don't get it always right, it is our duty to retain the Brittany or Epagneul Breton as a gundog, and as it is French, close to its standard of origin...as we are custodians of the breed. It is therefore our duty, as a gundog, and a " chien d'arret" to make sure the H P & R are never lost. I am also very proud to read on the French Forum that a French Breton is now world Champion and the French team the winner in Geece. the name of the dog is Vico. I feel it is fantastic news for the breed.They hold their own against other HPR breeds and beat them too. Therefore keeping up the pressure of work of excellence.  And being in the " majority" group.
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| highclare |
I for one totaly agree with what you say Pat but beating everyone else with a stick dosn't achive anything but some people not to open there mouths about what they are going to do with there dogs.
There is so much to think about when people want to breed and it is not as simple as breeding from know working lines not in Brits. I am really glad I have a working background because with the currant breed record holder I would be up for a lot of stick. Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| Paris M |
How very vicious, perhaps I should euthanize clover now  . The Inferior specimen she is, doesn’t matter that she has a wonderful nature, obedient and has decent conformation, I suppose it also wouldn’t matter if when she’s tested she had a perfect hip score because she hasn’t worked a day in her life she has to be eliminated from the genepool. Surely when evaluating a dog there are other things to consider?
I have been watching this thread and other’s on this subject and feel that I need to voice my opinion. I know I am not very experienced and just beginning my discovery into the world of the Brittany, perhaps when I have seen brittany’s working in the field, which I hope to do so I may change my opinion. But when you say dump the rest, you would be referring to dog’s like Clover, therefore I take statements such as this as a personal insult to her and me. The only reason she does not do gundog work is because I have not trained her too, its my fault, I don’t need her to perform this type of work but it doesn’t mean that she did not have the potential nor any offspring of her’s having potential to do such activities. IMHO Gundog work is the brittany's original function, not it's exclusive function.I wonder how many Brittanys currently, after you have dumped the rest, would be viable breeding stock in this view? I wonder how many prospective companion/obedience/agility Brittany owners browsing this forum have read that, perhaps they have gone to the AM cocker forum instead. I must also say I agree with Highclare’s sentiments completely, her posts I have found to have a balanced viewpoint.
I did not know that Shooting Men/women were the B all and end all of Brittanys, just like show judge’s aren’t IMHO holistic viewpoints are surely the way forward. |
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| Anne Eissing |
Guy, may I correct you, the HZP in Germany don´t include carrying a fox. This is part of the VGP, the most difficult test for HPRs in Germany. The HZP includes retrieving a duck or a rabbit after a tracking, water work behind a living duck, finding and retieving a dead duck out of the water, hunting, pointing and so on. And as you said, the Brittany is capable of doing this work like the other HPRs. |
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| The Plum |
To those who seem to think that it really doesn't matter whether the Brittany works as a gundog or not I say "use it or lose it. "
I would be willing to bet that the number of people on this forum who work their dogs is very low. Many dogs would fail elementary gundog tests maybe because they haven't been trained as a gundog but also maybe because the dog lacks what it takes to be a gundog . You can take a work bred dog into a showring and get chucked out with the rubbish and it really doesn't matter a toss. But take a dog only used in a showring out to a shoot and it would be a total liability. Whether a dog can do gundog work or not matters a great deal if game would be left unfound but wounded because the dog wouldn't track it down in the first place or retrieve it after finding it ! Being a rubbish dog at a shoot matters a great deal, if not to the shooters and dog handlers then certainly to the pricked birds. Can your "gundog" track down and retrieve wounded game ? Would your dog swim out to sea for a wounded bird ? These are the sort of things essential in a gundog . Does your dog do them ? I have no objection at all to anyone who wants a dog simply as a companion or as a showdog - whatever floats your boat but please don't tell me they are gundogs unless they actually do the job. That applies to any breed of gundog , not just to Brittanies. I suggest you leave the protected greenhouse atmosphere of the Brittany forum and try presenting some of these views on breeding "gundogs" on more work orientated fora ..........you'd get laughed off ! I accept that a great many people on this forum are pet or show orientated , that is obvious from the cries of outrage whenever someone challenges your cosy little world. All of my dogs are house pets and gundogs , those are the things I need, if your needs are different and your interest in working the dogs is minimal, that's fine but look at the title of this thread ? I responded to that and was invited to comment further. If you didn't like my comments - tough - I wasn't trying to please anyone. Bill T. |
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| johnhod |
Unfortunately the KC in its need to compartmentalise everything has decided that, regardless of ability, dogs of specific breeds will be known as gundogs, so they are to blame for the confusion. Perhaps people would be better saying that they owned a dog that was in the gundog group, rather then claiming to own a gundog, until their dog had actually heard gunshot, worked on live game and not been kicked off a shoot (or been asked not to bring their dog again, if they're paying to be there) for having an unruly dog. A gundog is a dog that works to the gun, not simply a member of a breed that fits into the KCs classification lists. |
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| Anne Eissing |
Guy, another idea: the retriever club in Germany has also many members who only show their dogs. They have the rule, that at least one of the parents of a litter has to prove a gundog working test. | ||||
| Dave A |
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| highclare |
Well said Bill but WHAT IF hunting with dogs was to go a little futher as was intented when a ban on Fox hunting came into force.
The goverment wanted at the time to ban ALL known hunting with dogs which included gundog work? I will tell you why it didn't happen MONEY. there is to much money in shooting for any goverment to try to stop it. People like you and me who love to see a well trained dog working the ground infront, dropping to shot or standing on point and retrieveing all that is asked of it. As I have said over and over again there should not be Show v Working we should all be working together to keep the breed healthy, with type, have ability to work and have a good temperament. After that is achived then surly what the owner wants to do with it is up to them. Sweeping statments like you should only concider breeding from working stock only in my OPPINION is dangerous, there is far to much to consider when breeding to say that. I think this subjuct is like Fox Hunting both sides will never agree Ha Ha. Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| Patricia |
"we should all be working together to keep the breed healthy, with type, have ability to work "
Fine with that Gill...Ability to work. How would you go about that? What tests would you like to see? Bill Thank you for your answers to my questions... |
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| The Plum |
That is true John. If a person who has a bitch belonging to a gundog group but which is not worked decides to have a litter of pups from a dog with equal credentials to being a gundog , are the puppies members of a gundog group or are they gundogs - should they be sold as potential gundogs ? Should we have to depend on a large amount of luck when buying a brit pup for work purposes ?
It is easily possible to buy a brittany puppy of show winner to show winner breeding. The reverse is just next door to impossible - trial winner to trial winner. It would be fairly difficult to buy a pup where even one of the parents is a trial winner. If brits that work are required, if the breed is to be taken seriously as a gundog in this country ,then it needs to lose its "hard to train" label. Very few gundog men /shooting men will buy a pup because it comes from a quaint and wellbred showline. They want proven working stock. So do I. I think the way forward isn't for most brit owners to just bumble along while others are happy to be big fish in a small pond. It is for a stringent test scheme to be set up, suitable for gundog work in this country. The dogs wouldn't need to be field trial champions to pass but they would have to be capable of doing basic gundog work . Too many of the brits that I have seen cannot demonstrate even that low level of requirements. The owners of this kind of dog even seem to brag about how bad they are ! I.M.O. having a quaint and uncontrollable dog is nothing to brag about ! Any pug owner could make the same brags and the same "if only" claims. Yes ,things go wrong at tests and at trials and dogs get eliminated but cream always rises to the top . The dog will pass its next test or gain an award in its next trial...........if it is cream . There would be nothing to prevent dogs passing such a test going into a showring - some of them might even get awards - true dual purpose dogs. I still think the brit should be a force to be reckoned with as a gundog. It has many terrific attributes - but it has several bad ones too and the lines carrying those attributes need to be dumped - or left up on the show only shelf ??? They are not true dual purpose dogs. This isn't about the future of any individual dog or any individual breeders "line." It is about the future of this breed as gundogs, in this country, in the real sense of the word "gundog." I would like to see the percentage of good working, reasonably easy to control/train brittanys born in this country increase. I have no axe to grind whatsoever for one persons breeding over another. No club or breed politics influence what I say. I am not trying to promote one "line" over another. I just want to see brittanies improve and take their place alongside the other working dogs at all kinds of shooting occasions. Bill T. |
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| kandjt |
Thanks Guy for the offer, I would appreciate it if you could pass on the German test. I had a copy of Peter's first draft, but have downloaded the revised copy and will certainly read it asap. I agree with you about the HPR provision of the Gundog Club scheme hopefully as the complete grades are published it might make a little more sense to me. The NAVHDA site is well worth a look to see how a structured test sytem works.
At the moment Field Trials are the only nationally recognised test of a gundog's working ability which I assume is why it is included in the Brittany Club's aims and objectives? The aim of the club is to encourage breeding the true type of Brittany, ensure adequate classification at shows, and promote Field Trials. The Officers and Committee are always willing and available to help and advise members with any aspect of training or rearing Brittanys, or to discuss the breed in general. We place particular importance on the Breed's duality. This is not just a show dog, or a working dog, it is a dual purpose dog as in France It seems to me that this is a fairly unambiguous statement! As to how the shooting fraternity see gundogs can perhaps be illustrated by a letter in todays Shooting Times. In it the writer talks effusively about Sharon P's Freddie, however he concludes: In 2008, my daughter persuaded me to go to Crufts with her. While there I talked to gundog and HPR breeders who sho these breeds. It became apparent to me that many working dog breeds did not work and were not fit for purpose but looked the part. This makes Freddie even more remarkable. Finally, as to not having enough time to train a gundog, I asked the breeder of my very first gundog the same question. His reply: If you have enough time to walk your dog everyday, you have enough time to train it, it only takes a few minutes every day, but it has to be every day. Something I did for twenty odd years. I'm not sure my dogs are any better trained now I can spend longer on them. I know many who hold down a full time job and still find time to train their dogs, yes even to field trial standard! |
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| highclare |
<<Fine with that Gill...Ability to work.
How would you go about that? What tests would you like to see?>> Thanks Pat, well in this case I would come to people like you and the other experienced people who have the love of the working side at heart to work out a test that puts the Brittany's working ability to the test. I suppose like the show Spaniel Field Day but maybe not exclusively to show Brit's. If it wasn't as hard as a field trial but not as easy as throwing dummies like a novice test then maybe just maybe you would entice new comers more readily. As you know I enjoy the working side and do agree that any gundog and its owner should try it, especially on a warm autumnal day the leaves are falling all around and the earth smells lovely. A hard day in the beating line is so healthy for dog and owner. Gill and the Mabeleen. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
You waxing poetical Gill
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| Dave A |
Hi All
Now i know that this may sound far to simple, but thats the way i like to keep it, I don't trial or enter tests but i do work my dogs and shoot over them in a variety of situations all through the season from August and into February. Now reading all the posts from the start we ( shooters/hunters etc )take a lot for granted as we have the know how ( you would hope :-) )and land to take our dogs and bring them on as HPR's People only interested in showing may have none of the above. now all the more recent posts have been about working tests and other countrys methods which i am sure have there merits and i would be interested in some of them, but we haven't covered the fact that it would be great to get a few of the top show dogs onto a good piece of land and give um a go just let them hunt and if they point great if they flush on command even better and if they are willing to retreve anything bril.this is just natural ability and nothing to do with years of gundog training i know, but without the basic instincts it isn't worth even starting I would be happy to see this raw instinct as proof that HPR is still in the breed rather than put up the brick wall of more types of tests, its basically a wild bird TAN with extras. I have now put my tin hat on and await any response
Dave A |
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| highclare |
Hi Dave,
No need for a tin hat here, a very good response and just what people need to hear. Very well said the fact that loads of people have no access to land to try there dog on is half the problem. I do believe if everyone got together all around the country and found land or had land for the COMPLETE starter to show if there dog had ANY ability to work would be great. I don't mean one place for everyone to go to like the Brit weekend, I mean in different regions like South East and east Ang, South and South west, Wales and Midlands, North West and Scotland or North East and Scotland. This is just a made up areas. There could be a person who is passionate about the working side to a, show off there dogs working in the field and b, to help all starters to have a go. Other enthusiasts in the working side could go along to help. That would really show if working people were wanting others to join them in working there dogs?????? Its just a thought and something we have done in the Welsh years ago and now there is a health crop of people who now go along to lots of different working occasions, including beating in the line. Gill and the Mabeleen |
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| The Plum |
Yes that would be a good sized step in the right direction.
I also liked Dave's idea of testing to see if the dogs will do the very basic H -P- R . Personally I would also like to have the dogs willingness to work with a handler demonstrated - - - - Perhaps with a simple blind retrieve ? Or would that be too much to ask ? I know it is the case that many of us have no private land to train on and I have sympathy for that because that is the position that I am in. I still manage to train my dogs - just not as well as I once could. Bill T. |
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| Patricia |
Excellent posts and mind stretching. I will give two examples of a useful tool. A Good HPR club. Like minded people, other HPR to compare with.
We are lucky to have the Norfolk and Suffolk. And I am even more lucky to know a GSP commitee member who loves nothing more than to wind me up give me heaps of advice.
Two people whom I take my hat off to and have joined. One beginner in the trial world and show person originally. Mick Y and Ruby. I won't forget his first grading in spring pointing and the way he threw his wooly hat in the air!! Now he has a "second" at a field trial. A show bitch who, having seen her work is really biddable and has such a bond with her handler.
The other( very experienced) is Christine M and her Hungarian Visla. She is everywhere with that dog, training days and all. And trials of course... Then another member of the Brittany Club, Trevor L, having just won "puppy" at the N&S working test with his Brittany. All have made use of the good facilities of the HPR club, 2 are from Essex and it is only once a month. So, no need for land as it is provided. Plus friendship and learning thrown in. |
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| Mugi |
I will also add a kind of relevant irrelevance .
I have a dog with a huge amount of natural talent and he actually does mostly work with me and want to please me (in the field) - he hunts, points, retrieve is soooo much better (and I know I was what messed that up  ) and he swims really strongly BUT he is blessed with a very novice handler from a gundog work perspective.
Chase and I do well(ish) but I am 110% sure that put him with an experienced handler and he would be well up there. So how many good brittanys are out there but are not being allowed to show their potential due to novice handlers, handlers who just want a good dog to work with informally and/or alone and have no interest in proving a point. ............. and another point from the perspective of training and organising advanced training days. For a small club I don't think the BCGB does too bad but there are issues that come down to money, travel, time and the availability of suitable trainers/assisters and it needs more people to offer help and support. Most of us have other committments aside of our dogs and the amount of organisation that even a simple days training needs is amazing when put on top of a job and family. Then we also need to pitch activities at an appropriate level to help people learn and so training can progress the dogs and handlers. Gill - I have attended one of the WSS Training and/or Working Test events and was really impressed with how well pitched it was to help all with less emphasis on competition and more on helping everyone to get the best from their dog and themselves. I dread to think how much I have so far spent on Chase and where we are at aged 2.5 but I know I drive at least 250 miles a month for him on average (working/training opportunities not shows) and I will spend between £30 - £200 pounds a month on top of petrol. I also doubt I will ever achieve his full potential from a competition point of view but I am determined to try and enjoy ourselves while we are at it. |
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| doganjo |
Cat among pigeons time - spanner in works.
The title of this thread is 'working dog versus show dog' not 'trial dog versus show dog' To my mind there is a big difference; and there are a great many working dogs and very few show dogs and even less trial dogs. |
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| Waldo |
Excuse me but I feel a bit inadequate to really comment, but here goes.
Somehwere in a previous post (this thread) there was comment that 60% of a dogs natural ability comes from the mother, I would have assumed this would be a no-brainer given that the sire in the majority of cases probably has no contact with the pups? Then on that basis, how much if any "training" does the mother do to prepare her pups for a future life before the pups leave (8-10 weeks)? If the mother has a strong work ethic how much of this "skill" is imparted on some small way during obviously a very formative period. So if this mother has no real work experience are the pups missing out on a "early' training experience and hence not getting a head start. Has anyone had experience with hand raised pups where the mother has perhaps died when giving birth. The only real comment I can make from personal experience is from I took my girl out to a reserve (bush paddock) with my son when she was quite young, I had just purchased a whistle let Annie off for a run and she was quartering quite well and working. I said to my son, watch this trainers can turn their dogs with a blast from the whistle, I blew the whistle and she turned 90 deg, she had never heard that whistle before. I then commented I think they blow it twice for recall, did that and she came straight back. We were both blown away! We in this country aren't blessed with a wide choice of breeders and sometime have to grab what we can (within reason) and hope for the best, my Annie came from the only litter available at somewhere near the prefered time and was less than 300kms away, next time around and armed with a bit more knowledge and experience I may choose a bit differently but I'm sure most first time gundog owners choose in a similar fashion. Cheers, Waldo |
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| Patricia |
You are right Anne... It is working dogs versas...
Waldo, I recall vividly Mieur marchand of the St Tugen kennel telling me at Crufts: 60% the bitch, 40 the dog. But he was talking genetics. |
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| The Plum |
Annie I have been working gundogs from the Scottish borders right up to Glenshee for donkeys years now. Working brittanies are as rare as hens teeth ! I see far more brits at just one dog show than I have seen working on shoots - doing any kind of work over a period of years. Some falconers like brits but their dogs could be - hardmouthed - noisy - non retrievers - gunshy. I would have to know the falconer and his dog very well before I'd buy a pup from him. It is work but it isn't gundog work. Where are all these working brits in Scotland ? How many are in England and Wales ? I am in contact with guns and gundog trainers from all over the country . If a significant number of Brits was out there working I would hear about them. Your "great many" working dogs just does not exist . Show and pet dogs account for most of the brits going around. What shoots in Scotland employ Brits that you know of Annie ? There must be a few somewhere but I never come across them or hear of them from the H.P.R. workers, the lab workers or the spaniel workers that I talk to regularly and who attend shoots or go rough shooting all over Scotland. I am aware of a couple being worked down in the borders and one up Inverness way - where are all the hundreds of other working brittany gundogs ? I don't think they exist. This thread wasn't aimed at promoting trials it was aimed at promoting working brits and devising a way to ensure that decent working dogs can pass tests suitable for an HPR breed. Nowhere in the entire thread have I said that only HPR trial winners should be bred from . That was my own personal standard to achieve .......I do not expect others to feel that level of work is needed. I believe we are talking about basic ability levels in the dogs ? I happen to believe that puppy buyers should be entitled to a really good chance of buying gundogs that are suitable for purpose . That means breeding for the best and training for the rest. Giving lip service to the idea of having a capable working brit just isn't enough. If the dog is at all decent it will pass the elementary tests being talked about here. Bill T. |
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| doganjo |
I can only base my opinions on personal experience, and from what I have been told by friends who have bred Brittanys - I have bred 30 puppies. Of that 30, 4 were shown(Freckles, her brother and her two sisters - the brother, Freckles and one sister have also been worked to an extent), 2 were pets, the rest went to either falconers or shooters. I have been assured over the years that the dogs are working. A number of my friends have sold pups to shooters and to falconers. | ||||
| guy |
Do we need a definition of 'working' as I suspect currently one persons idea of 'working' is another's 'messing about'
My idea of working is a dog 'operating to the handler's bidding' That is doing things and not doing things to the handler's command. I am personally very happy to see running an agility course as 'working'. For a 'gundog' snuffling along a hedgerow and pointing a bird or finding and chasing a rabbit are not working but just displaying the natural hunting instincts. It does not make it a Gundog. As to 'being' a gundog - it is a bit like all Moet et Chandon is champagne but not all champagne is Moet et Chandon. All Gundogs are gundogs but not all gundogs are Gundogs. As to where are the working dogs? Surely we should not expect to find them on the average UK shoot as a Brittany is not an ideal dog for the beating line. I have only once heard of a Brittany at a shoot, it was owned by one of the guns, he returned it to the breeder as unmanageable. You can imagine the reception I had when Topaz and I turned up. We worked on that shoot for a year. Even Barley went on occasion - albeit on a lead all the time.
Whilst i have never seen another Brittany out in the field I do regularly meet people who know of someone who has one, there are meant to be three on a farm not three miles from me, but I have never seen them and I often detour to go past where i think they live. As to why they are not more popular? I would hazard a guess that most handlers struggle to get their dog to recall when they want them to. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
As Bill knows, my dogs 'work' on a shoot. Ghillie is very often the only dog on the beating/picking up line and I am often asked if she is coming and do I want to come with her.
Having said that I have no intention of trialing either of them. a. I wouldn't have the time [not having unlimited resources] b. I don't have either the knowledge nor the inclination to train them to trial standard. c. I think they are both 'working and show dogs' anyway, not to mention that Merlin is also an agility dog and they both do obedience, well sometimes they do. There are other Brittanys working around here because Mick Young trials, works and shows his. Also Michael and Pauline used to both work and show their dogs down at Elstead. And the dog which started this thread ie Sh Ch. Eastonite Tamoshanter, works much more than he is shown and lives over in Northamptonshire. I do appreciate Bill's argument and agree with him that to keep the working instinct in any gundog breed both parents should show at least a modicom of ability in the job for which it was bred otherwise those instincts will be lost to the breed. What is the point in having a working breed that may look beautiful but when faced with a bird, rabbit or whatever, just ignores it, tears it to pieces or wants to play it
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| Patricia |
That's right Jan...
We have seen many newcomers at the Club week end do their water retrieve, and retrieve their bird. So how about a kind of working test with a cold bird for retrieve, maybe find a field to put the dogs through their paces, pointing and firing a small pistol, bit of obedience ? and water if needed? And get a certificate like the TAN? Would that be too much? ( in France once a dog has proved it can swim, it doesnt not need to do it again) Would all this put people off giving it a go? And have help available to advise if things go wrong, like a good Trainer sympathetic to novices??? |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Well thats a bit like the Show Gundog Working Certificate so it could be useful. But at the end of the day if a dog is going to work should it not be asked to do more than one test that lasts about 10 minutes at the outside
Work surely means being capable of doing a days work consistently not just ten minutes and then never again
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| The Plum |
The longest hunt I was ever given in a trial was about 25 minutes . This was on a grouse moor and as the judge told me later he'd wanted to see if a brittany could really run hard for that length of time up and down a steep heather covered slope.
It doesn't sound very much but that is a long run when done at full pelt on a hillside. Heather isn't kind to small dogs. Much as I'd like to see a hunt for every dog on an assessment day that lasted 20 - 30 minutes it just would not be practical . The day would not be long enough for more than a few dogs to be assessed. One of my pet hates are the dogs who "waste" ground. In trials it is fairly common to see a dog that just wombles about hardly covering any ground. Personally I prefer a dog that is just a tinge out of control and is running its socks off to a gundog version of a Womble ! These Wombles all too often seem to get good ground to run and they make nothing of it. The dog wombles its way across the land , the handler, judges , steward etc. etc. all walk across the area too and god knows what game is walked right past ! There used to be a couple of HPR judges going around whos solution to this I completely agreed with . They gave the dog about 3 minutes worth of wombling then told the handler to call it up and very politely said goodbye to them ! I.M.O. if I were judging a trial and while watching a dog I had time to yawn and scratch my bum then that dog would not win. The fact that it may have pointed would not matter ..........the dog was bred to point ! If a lab retrieves I don't think it's blooming marvellous ...the same applies to pointing. I look forward to seeing what develops from this discussion . The brittany breed has surely wombled on long enough depending for its reputation as a gundog on what happens elsewhere in the world. The breed needs to move on in this country. Bill T. |
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| Waldo |
I wouldn't mind betting that the majority of Brittany's in Australia are used for hunting. The Blub Breton Partridge hunt I attended was certainly well attended given the "rarity" of the breed in this country. As I previously mentioned breeder choice over here is limited, but of the breeders I spoke to when researching the breed and looking for a pup often the first question asked was "do you intend to hunt with her"? At some points it almost felt like if I had said NO, I would have struggled to get a pup!
My Annie hasn't seen a lot of varied game or bird work but as for work ethic when stalking deer she will go for 6-8 hours in quite rough/scrubby Alpine type terrain, she is keen to get back in the ute but she wont stop till we do. It appears that our (Aus) situation may be quite different to what you have in the UK??? I guess the question of what constitutes work depends on the handler, if the dog performs the duties asked and is in the field assisting/working with the handler they are working in my view. My girl would probably fail many of the tests you mentioned because that's not the type of "hunting" I do. Seeing her performance on the Partridge though (a bird she had never seen before) given the opportunity she would no doubt pick it up quickly as she did with the Partridge. I do agree the breed belongs in the field, Annie's temperment/behaviour changed after her first hunt (12 months old), I don't know if it was a coincidence or not but she seemed to mature at that point. It was as if a light had been switched on and she knew her purpose. Buying a "gundog" breed and not working it (either trials or field) is a bit akin to buying a gun and not going shooting! Probably should add that I fully support the notion that only the best/tested proven stock should be used as breeders, as a first time gundog owner someone like I need everything possible in our favour, an un-savoury experience first up could discourage someone for life. Cheers, Waldo |
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| eddieh |
Could I ask how many people who think that working or trialling is the real purpose of gundog breeds, have gone out of their way to encourage non hunting people to get interested in those activities?
Edit Sorry. I should have said that I meant on a mass rather than individual basis. |
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| guy |
not sure of the question Eddie - I don't think any have said trialling is the purpose - just the only method available for truly testing at the moment.
As to 'hunting' being the definition of 'working' - maybe you have a point - for that use it is redundant now meat has a sell by date and a label. All the HPR breed clubs arrange 'training days' - but you have to know or want to 'train' our dog. Perhaps there should be a ' demo day with a have a chance to have a go' So new people can come along and have what is going on explained to them. |
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| guy |
I think a demo day is such a good idea I will make this offer -
I will take two people as guests with me when when I go 'picking up'. Bring yourselves and a dog and lunch. I will explain what goes on and where and why and you will have an opportunity to see dogs 'picking up' and have a go if a suitable occasion arises - and if not one will be set up for you. You will have a go at taking the dog in the beating line. The day will be near Uppark in West Sussex. Arrival time 8.30 finish about 3.30. The shoot is on a Saturday and i will be there save when I manage to get a FT entry. |
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| guy |
just read a reply by a WSS owner on his friend's Facebook post and referring to brittanys
"Oh gawd ! ( having said that I used to shoot over one years ago on walked up shoots and it was brilliant ! )" |
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| Patricia |
Good question Eddie...As we are lucky to have plenty of land, we have over the years, offered for novice people the chance to have a go at working the dogs. Through informal training days. Mick for one has often come down here. The last training session was with Angie Lewis, more advanced but still informal and very informative. We learnt heaps. Even if you are too worried by such a day, you can come, watch and go later to Southwold!!!
I bought my first Brittany from Stan Smith who would not sell to non working people at the time. I did obedience with my bitch and Alan took her to our local shoot. I was never interested in trialing as it terrified me. But I was lucky in that John and Eunice came down here and their passion was infectious. And we had fun Having bought top working bloodlines from France, I could hardly leave them at home. So we had a go at Spring Pointing and I was lucky to be in front of Maureen Nixon who was very kind and helpful.
I think the more involved you become in the breed, the more you want to see what they can do! And the goal gets higher( look at our dual Ch, the way she is bred, and her breeder who started with 2 non trialing dogs) We all have to start somewhere- and we must not forget that- it is scary, not easy but so rewarding when something clicks in position. However, the dog must be obedient in order to do the minimum. If you want to see your dog's ability, you are not far from Rory's? He is not scary and will start you off, but of course, the idea of putting a dog through it paces can be daunting. The first time I had a lesson with him, I felt sick
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| eddieh |
The reason for posing the question is that I am reminded of when I was looking for somewhere for my son to get help to learn about angling. I couldn't find any club which offered that kind of help. It seemed that the sole purpose of the various clubs was to organise matches. I did find many posts on angling forums, complaining that not many people were taking up angling as a hobby.
My local birding club, on the other hand, has at least one open day a year and puts out posters encouraging people to come and spend a few hours to find out what is going on in the world around them. They have quite a few new members and their field trips and talks are usually well attended. There are probably many people who own dogs of gundog breeds who would attend an activity day organised by their local gundog club. It could be a way of raising funds and awareness of what their dogs are meant to do. It might get more people onside if the subject of hunting bans were ever raised as well. |
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| eddieh |
Sorry Guy. I should have put a little more thought into my wording, but hey! what's new?
Patricia. I have often looked enviously at the website of the Norfolk and Suffolk HPR field trial club. It looks like what I'm looking for over here. Maybe I should join a local club and bludgeon them into doing the same.
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| johnhod |
Eddie I don't know if you go on the Working HPR Forum but there was a group set up recently in lincolnshire to do working training. I think Sue A went to their first session, which was taken by Rory. May not be on the doorstep but not a million miles away either. Alternatively, have you looked at GSP club, they seem to hold regular training sessions all round the country, set up on a regional basis. | ||||
| eddieh |
Thanks John. Rory is a bit of a distance, but it all depends on what time and day of the week it is. I'll certainly look into the GSP option too.
I've all but decided to do a Gundog club course. I know that they don't seem to have got the HPR side of things sorted and the first two grades are very basic, but that's what I need |
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| Patricia |
People come from quite a way to near Eye, Suffolk to our HPR Club. From Essex, Clacton, all over. I was told that they had to try to explain to the Agility and Pet brigade that it is a Club for Gundogs. They are one of the most friendly bunch and a lot of humour is always present
Today, shooting/ training day here. Birds bought by the N&S too as well as wild game. GSP's, Wire hair, Weimaraners, Brittanys...Fantastic day with 12 pheasants, 1 partridge( the rest came flying in big coveys!), 1 pigeon. All dogs had 2 birds at least each, all retrieved and pointed and pigeon for water. Young dogs too and new people wanting to have a "go". They were not disappointed
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| eddieh |
From what I've seen of the website, I'm not surprised.
North Essex is not that far in comparison to the 2:00 - 2:30 it would take me though
If I came down for a holiday, do you think they would let me watch? |
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| Patricia |
I will ask my wonderful GSP trainer ( who trials too) if he would put on a day for novice people to have a go if it was of help to anyone? Never any problems to watch Eddie The basics must have a dog under reasonable control though.
Yesterday, I am told a person came from near Bournemouth?? It is amazing the distances people will travel. For the Spring pointing test, Suzie Burton comes from right south too... to run.
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