Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: brittany range
I have cross posted this from the French forum
The author is 'chiendog'
Hello,
I am a photographer, writer and dog-nut who has spent the last 10 years photographing, researching and speaking to experts of all of the continental gundog breeds for a book project I am working on.
Currently I am making my way through the chapter on the Epagnuel Breton (Brittany). I have had the pleasure of hunting over several outstanding Brittanies here in North America (I am in Canada) and have seen a good number of Bretons in the field in France, Holland and Italy.
In each chapter, I write about the breed's origins, appearance, performance etc. In the Breton/Brittany chapter, I will touch on the differences between the Euro and American versions. While a detailed exploration of all the aspects are outside the scope of the book, I would nevertheless like to describe the most important differences, especially in terms of performance.
So here's my question: How did the idea that "French Brittanies" work more or less in gun range take hold in North America? I have read several widely published articles written by American authors, quoting American breeders that stated the main difference between the Brittany and the Breton is one of range. And it may be true to a certain extent. However, the differences suggested are huge. While it is true that some Brittanies can and do show an all age range in some forms of field trials, I simply cannot think of one Breton that only ranged, as one article claims "50 to 75 feet on either side of the handler". Every one of the Bretons I have seen in field trial competition in Europe ran very wide. Some would give a good setter or Pointer a run for the money. Granted, they were all hot-blooded trial bred dogs, but nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that anyone in Europe is breeding Bretons that never range further than cylinder bore shotgun range.
Am I way off base here? Are there very close working lines still out there? What is the typical range of a Breton?
Interesting info Guy. When trialing in this country dogs should be kept within the guns either side of handler,also you should try & keep up with your dog as much as possible to avoid mishaps. This way handler is in control not the dog once you have this in place you can then trust your dog and be fully focused with each other. I try and do this all the time now with my Ruby after all the dog should only work where you the handler tell's it to work. The range does vary a little but usually is about 30-40yds either side of guns although down wind can vary a little more as the Judges tend to like to see the dogs go out more in case of running bird's, then turn and work the wind.
When trialing in this country dogs should be kept within the guns either side of handler
Please explain this statement. I know I have yet to attend a UK HPR event but the two Irish events I have witnessed wouldn't be covered by this statement. In any event the guns were walking, gun open behind the handler and not in a line.
I can quote a couple of judges from France, one of which mentionned that the dog, when quartering, having done his " lace" should be about 40 yards in front...from the gun.
Another mentionned that, in his opinion, some dogs( in spring ) ranged too far for his liking. The first was talking roughly about 100 ms-150ms top.( spring)
On a UK trial, we don't need a dog miles away, the Brittany will pace himself to the terrain in any case...and those little dogs are plenty fast enough imo.
I can see I am going to have to learn another language to understand this forum.
Tricky Micky.
In the two events I witnessed, and I have to say that I thought there were similarities between the mothod of working in Ireland and the Uk, the guns didn't walk anywhere other than behind the handler. When the dog pointed a gun would take up position either side of the dog and and move along as the dog roaded to the flush so I would like you to explain to me what this bit of your post means.
Quote:
within the guns either side of handler
When I say "line" I mean the line created by the three men, the handler with a gun either side. Your post gives me the impression that the guns maybe walk fifty yards either side of the handler and that the dogs shouldn't go beyond the guns. I thought that the idea would be that the dog would cover a beat of say two hundred yards ( 100 either side ) and the guns would walk to where ever the dog pointed, be it just beside the handler, in the middle, or at the end of one cast 100 yards away.
Patricia.
By "having done his lace" I presume you mean that the dog completed a cast either side of the handler and has returned to the middle of the beat? If the beat is restrictd to 150 yards either side don't you think forty yards ahead seems a bit far? (I realise the 40 yards isn't your idea.)My own dogs regularly cover a beat of 1/3 of a mile ( I measured it in the car ), that's about three hundred yards either side and I like them to come within ten yards, in fact I insist on it in the hope that when competing I can restrict them to twice that without much effort. I just can't get my head round not wanting the dog across your toes as you can always walk faster or slower, depending on how deep the dog's bite is.
Surely depth of 'bight' will relate to scenting and ground conditions and above all teh ability of the dog's nose? 40yards may have been ideal for the particular conditions rather than the ideal.
Whilst a trial on a large field may have the judges artificially limiting the dog's beat (and i have heard of dogs being put out for 'being out of control' if they have exceeded that) - if the object of the exercise is to find game then the dog needs to do just that as it will wait on point until any guns arrive. The more ground you cover and the more places you look in the 10 mins alloted the more chance you have of finding something.
The question was however - how did the idea come about in America that French dogs hunt within gun range.
Is the answer something to do with any natural 'retrieve' instinct winning over natural 'hunt' instinct?
Using a world survey of two - i can say the dog that has the higher hunting drive hunts wider than the dog that has the higher retrieve drive. _________________ Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk
-" how did the idea come about in America that French dogs hunt within gun range."
I have not forgotten on another group someone describing some Brittany like..." an Aspro" in the horizon In the US.
But, we are in the UK, and we only compete against HPR's. In the booklet of work standards, some ranges for other Continental breeds are described. The 4o yards in front was the most the judge wanted the dog ( withing shot range)
An old French breeder is desillusioned by the distances now covered by some field trial dogs.
I was a member of a walked up grouse syndicate for four years and our most productive dog, mainly because the handler only had one dog and he ran her all the time he was out, was a light built GSP called Ellie. On a one to one basis she could out perform any of my pointers for a time at least. Ellie ran like, and covered the same amount of ground as a pointer.
Now in my mind it is the terrain that suggests the desireable range of any dog. If you are on an open moor surely you will want a greater range than in a Co fermanagh potato field.
So if your dog has the belly for it and you can be sure it is staunch why wouldn't you want the dog to be like an aspro? Surely a dog that covers a good beat will find and produce a greater percentage of the vailable game?
I am completely at a loss as to why an HPR needs to be within gun range when working?
Because many of us want a rough shooting dog and if we wanted an " Aspro" we would get a different breed. A Ferrari is not for everyone!
In France, some " Spring dogs" are too hot to handle for many, a lot of owners of this most popular breed ( in many countries) are simply " shooters" ie chasseurs.
You also need to be more experienced...?
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