A good post Keith. I disagreed only with a couple of small parts of it
I have never lived in the huge sprawl of the midlands but I did live in the centre of Edinburgh. Getting into the country involved a bus journey since I did not then own a car. My dog and any training gear needed also went by bus. Same thing on the way home. I had labradors then and still managed to train them well enough to win trials with. If you have the determination to do it , you will do it, if not you will live on wishes.
The part I disagreed on Keith was the need for in between stage "tests."
If any kind of K.C. recognition was given to a test of any kind then there are people who would use that slip of paper as a means of boosting their puppy sales. No matter if a test uses cold game or dummies it is still just a test. Only real game on real shooting days can decide upon a gundogs real value both as a gundog and as a potential sire or dam of future gundogs.
Trials aren't perfect but at least they take place with game being found ,shot and retrieved.
I have taken part in cold game tests , I've judged them too. I don't like them. I now don't send my dogs for birds that other dogs have had in their mouths. The other dog may have been hard mouthed and I'd be left wondering ,"Did my dog do that ?" Even if no other dog that day had retrieved the bird , what about the dog that retrieved it when it was first shot ?
I think using cold game could lead to problems that a dog didn't have before. A dogs nose is easily capable of telling the difference between a fresh,untouched by other dog or human hand bird and the falling to pieces stinking old things often used in cold game tests - even I can smell them ! I believe Guy has a photo of a duck used in a cold game test - perhaps he would be kind enough to show it ?
I have seen trial winning labs refuse to pick such birds - and I don't blame them ! I have also seen (twice) dogs in H.P.R. trials that have won novice trials and are competing in the blind over the water in the next trials up the ladder, find the cold game and eat it !!!
Only fresh shot game can give a clear picture of a dogs behaviour.
Bill T. _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
Thanks for the comments Bill, I actually don't disagree with any of them, perhaps I need to qualify my comments. When I organised Cold Game tests I tried to ensure that each dog had a fresh bird for each retrieve. Because of this would only run one such test a year and I had a chest freezer solely to store the game. Luckily the Fens are fantastic for pigeon shooting and gamekeeper friends were very helpful.
I didn't envisage the Kennel Club being involved with the inbetween tests for the very reasons you give. The Brittany Club run the TAN and the SP test that are not under KC authority and wondered if there was a way these could be adapted or extended to help competitors gently into Trials. Through the years I've seen dogs at novice trials who obviously had little or no experience of game never mind retrieved one. Hope thats a bit clearer?
Thank you, Keith, and Bill. Both very interesting posts. However, I don't think that additional test awards won by my dogs between the TAN and Field Trials levels would have made the slightest bit of differenece to the sales of any puppies I've bred, whether they were authorised KC events or not. Most of the serious Brittany breeders ( I don't mean the one-off ones, or perhaps even non-club member ones because I don't know any of those) have waiting lists for puppies, and if anything I suppose acquiring additional titles might just increase the length of the list. But there are only a finite number of pups in any litter so last time I had a waiting list of 6 plus myself, and there were only 3 pups. 7 into 3 won't go
So I would certainly endorse additonal events being set up, and if I can get some game accumulated and find some ground I'll try and get something arranged for after the season ends. I think it is too big a step to go straight into trials, I have never tried but I remember presuading John to enter a few that by today's standards Gigi had not been trained for. Yet she got to the water on three out of 7 trials (might have been more, can't remember now). John had never worked a dog let alone trialled one and I was very naive on what was required but bless his soul he went out and did it for me. I guess Gigi must have been just one of these good dogs - or lucky Which is another subjuect altogether. If Guy and John are watching this thread they must be pulling their hair out because we are no longer discussing either conformation or Shooting times _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
I think it is too big a step to go straight into trials,
Why do you think that Annie ? Everyone has the same chance to do well in a trial. Luck does play a part but if your dog is good enough it will eventually win. There is no requirement to win first time out, you can get "on the job training " of the very best kind - bitter experience ! I got chucked out of my first ever retriever trial and I got chucked out of my first ever H.P.R. trial. I learned from my mistakes and both of those dogs eventually won trials.
At present I have been taking a look at spaniel trials. If Charlie ever gets the kind of work he needs on sufficient rabbits then I may run him in a spaniel trial. I do not expect to win but I do expect to learn how to win.
You just do the work, then do it again then enter the trial and do your best.
Bill T. _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
A rough shooting dog and a field trial dog are not always the same. I believe there is a saying that goes along the lines of 'the best way to spoil a trained dog is to take it shooting'.
Interim tests. I think we have lost sight of the original reason for 'working tests' and that was to provide a means of measuring the progress of training outside the season. Pressure of numbers has now made it a goal in its own right - and nothing wrong with that; just not my bag. For me the full monty is the retrieve to hand of fresh shot game. The SGWC although run at the end of a FT and involves the full HPR has none of the adrenaline associated with running in a FT.
Whilst I have said I think the current set up proves Brittanys are still capable I feel I need to elaborate that point. I believe you can still 'scratch' most Brittanys and find a capable dog under the skin. But this is a 'reactive approach' rather than a 'proactive' one. I don't get the impression breeders are choosing their stock on the basis of 'ability'. Indeed I fail to see how they could as there is no way of recording 'ability'. All that is happening is that there is a mixing of latent talent rather than a considered selection for talent
Perhaps if the dual purpose breed clubs only promoted links to kennels with a track record in the field and in the ring then the unhealthy domination of one specialty over another would not get started.
A final thought - the Brittany was developed as a gundog that had to have a good personality and be a house dog for the rest of the year - let's not loose sight of that part of it's character. _________________ Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk
I don't get the impression breeders are choosing their stock on the basis of 'ability'.
I await Patricia's reply to this. I'm sure she'll argue that the dogs she imports are chosen for their ability. _________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
Patricia,
Barbara Anderson
Steve Wright
Alithea Lockie
Joanne Hague _________________ Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk
Dave - i am not raising puppies yet. But i am doing my homework on lines and ability. When I do let herself have a litter (probably not until next Christmas at the earliest) I am intending to run them so second owners can have a very good idea of how they perform.
Having had two rehomes and a puppy at nine months i am convinced you don't need to have a pup at an early age to develop a deep relationship with the dog. _________________ Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk
Good I will look forward to that, And i would agree my first britt was 2 yrs when i got her ( A kind of rescue ) and when she realised she wasn't going to be passed on again, She settled in and has been a very reliable working dog ever since ( now nearly 11 yrs )
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Which is another subjuect altogether. If Guy and John are watching this thread they must be pulling their hair out because we are no longer discussing either conformation or Shooting times 
Why do you think that Annie ? Everyone has the same chance to do well in a trial. Luck does play a part but if your dog is good enough it will eventually win. There is no requirement to win first time out, you can get "on the job training " of the very best kind - bitter experience ! I got chucked out of my first ever retriever trial and I got chucked out of my first ever H.P.R. trial. I learned from my mistakes and both of those dogs eventually won trials.
