Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: tails , carriage, and movement
This is from Anka, Switzerland. Successfully trials her dogs in France, and imports from the best lines available...and tailless.
Tail: to be carried level with the back: This is going to be difficult to select.... In all the time I have been observing this factor from 8 weeks of age onwards, it is impossible to see if the tail will be carried correctly...Oh Yes, all the puppies carry it high, this long tail, and this does not give you a clue!!!
It is only from 4-6 months that you can get an idea how the tail carriage will be!
But, from 30 odd puppies observed, from at least one tailless parent,I have always seen well carried tails, more or less abundant in fringes.
For the demand of tails or not: 50% for, 50% against.
The tail carriage is a criteria just like the ear carriage! No?
To be accepted in shows, I don't think it is easy to judge...
Difference in movement:
What I notice is not a diffrence of movement in the trot but the gallop! When the tail carriage is such as the Standard asks, the Breton has a tendency to extend their gallop, like a Setter! The one who carries his tail over the back, very often has a better and more attractive rolling gallop( That is if the dog is short of loin) But, for instance, seeing that tail in the air in hunting mode, it really is not pretty!
There is also the problem that when the dog is on scent and maybe tracks for a little while, the tail goes up, beats from right to left and left to right. This becomes evident with a long tail, probably the dogs does the same with its shortened tail, but it does not bother anyone because it is short!
Evidently, for the choice of lines, it is no good having naturally tailless dogs who are no good at hunting, not typical etc...But for my own personal pleasure, I only keep tailless dogs at home.
Good post and my own sentiments too. Thank you Patricia. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
I had noticed that with Cavalier puppies if, when standing round a bowl feeding, their tails are carried over the back, chances are that they will also be carried over their backs as adults. If the tails are low when feeding they will be carried correctly when moving as adults ie; level or slightly lower than horizontal. _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
In Australia, we have had no-docking laws for a few years now. Some of the docked dogs and bitches seem to throw more puppies with gay tails (which as noted above are hard to pick in puppies. Thankyou for the interesting observation in Cav puppies, I'll look for that from now on).
What I have observed is that the dogs and bitches throwing more gay tails in their offspring, tend to be dogs with flatter croups and very high set tails. Maybe the tendency to have a curved tail begins in the spine resulting in a curve upward through the croup and the set-on of the tail and on to the tail curled upwards?
Luckily my two carry their tails level, but I don't know about their ancestors, or if the characteristic is dominant or recessive. I guess this will be just one more thing to select for in the breeding program.
The shorter the back the more tendency to have a gay tail. In animals belonging to the spitz breeds [Chow, Samoyed, Akita etc] that have a natural gay tail ie; curled over the back you can see that the back has a tendency to be short and therefore the tail is set high. No doubt in breeds like the Poodle where the tail is normaly carried in the ten to two position, the dogs will also show gay tails now that they are not docked and we can see the position of the remainder of the tail. So, in breeding dogs with short backs we [ we in general I mean] have, in fact, developed this trait even more. _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
Your observation about how gay tails seem to be associated with short-backed breeds sent me running for the tape measure. Both my dogs (a small sample, I agree) measure the same in height at withers and length from point of shoulder (where the scapula & humerus meet) to butt, so are square in body, and yet carry their tails level.
However, I can see that a tail that is carried high will have the visual effect of shortening the length of the back, which would be even more emphasized for a short or docked tail. So, selecting for visual shortness of back could easily lead to selecting for a curled tail that is only apparent in the long-tailed dogs.
If you think of a square corner.....a dog who's tail bone is on top of the square may have a gay tail, but if it's on the side it will tend to be carried level. _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
If you think of a square corner.....a dog who's tail bone is on top of the square may have a gay tail, but if it's on the side it will tend to be carried level.
Yes, that makes sense. If this theory is correct then we should be able to feel, if not see, the set=on of the tail in the puppy and so predict the gay & level tails for adults (given that all puppies tend to carry their tails up).
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: Tail Carriage & Bobtails
There are a lot of components that go into tail carriage.
Mostly temeraments, nerve intervention, and naturally tailess dogs seem to have more of a gait issue as well in my experience.
Here is an excerpt from the Journal of Heredity early Oct.2008 concerning the lethality and birth defects associated with the bobtail gene.
Much to some individuals beliefs at least for me the article reaffirmed all of the data I have collected over the years in Brittanys with the gene and in my own experiences with defects.....so breeding bob to bob is not a "good" thing.
"In the Brittany Spaniel and Bourbonnais
Pointer short-tailed X short-tailed crosses, such a reduction
was not reported by the breeders; however, this observation
being based on only few crosses, the reduction percentage
could not be significantly calculated. Homozygosity for the
mutation appears to cause either embryonic or early
postnatal lethality due to serious developmental defects
(Indrebø et al. 2007). Similar observations have been
previously seen in different mouse mutants for the T gene
(Gluecksohn-Schoenheimer 1938; Wilson et al. 1995).
Recently, Pembroke Welsh Corgi puppies with severe
anatomical defects having the homozygous mutation have
been characterized. These puppies lacked tails, manifested
anorectal atresia with severe alterations in the posterior
lumbar region and spine, and had a failure to thrive (Indrebø
et al. 2007). In contrast with homozygous, heterozygous
bobtailed dogs have not been reported to manifest any other
abnormalities (Indrebø et al. 2007). In mouse mutants,
additional spinal defects have been described in heterozygous
T gene mutants. These phenotypic differences are most
likely due to the different type of mutations in dogs and
mice. Whereas the mutation in dogs affects only the T-box
domain, mice carry large deletions that cover the whole
T gene and may also affect the other genes in the region
such as the T2 gene (Herrmann et al. 1990; Rennebeck et al.
1998)."
Seems to me if the KC will be documenting the gene on pedigrees that doing so no matter the length of the effected short tail would be of benefit to avoid breeding short to short if one wanted to minimize the homozygous effects like lack of anus that I encountered when my supposed long tail was mated to a bobtail. When one encounters such results you can document now in fact that the supposed long tail was in fact a carrier of the gene. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
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