Chase - measured over height
Chrissy - Tres Bon
Merlin - Tres Bon
Bolko - Anne Eissing - Excellent
Amsel - Andrea Wreesmann (Catja's mother) Excellent 1st. just missed RCACS - she was robbed! as pictures elsewhere will I think show. _________________ Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk
Some strange ones
1. Liver and white with black ears
Click to see full size image
This IS NOT A LIVER DOG OVERLAYED IN BLACK !
THIS IS A VERY DARK SABLE.... Liver dogs NEVER HAVE BLACK NOSES OR BLACK TOENAILS ! Yes it appears the color of Liver and many get registered as livers. What the ky/ky & ay/ay genes do is turns teh Black into "orange" but there is another factor much like what makes some Tricolored dogs have small points or full orange faces that determins the intensity of this change to orange. This is a classic example of "rusting" that is a major fault in many breeds that should be jet black. ie Schipperke come to mind but for them it is more blocking out the brown gene and not so much sable.
doganjo wrote:
2. Black and a little white with liver on muzzle and above eyes but nowhere else
Click to see full size image
This dog is just like the pups I had out of Oscar. They are born Black and White but do not turn Tricolor until after 3 months of age. This is another example of the gene that times the turning factor on and off. Depending on a countries registration system and time frames it shoule be properly called a Tri even if the feet markings are restricted mostly. This correlates to the "muddiness" that is considered undesiarable in the Gordon Setter Standard. This is still a "real" tricolor as the color intensity is too bright to be a "Phantom".
doganjo wrote:
3. Lighter liver and white with dark tan overlay.
Click to see full size image
This is a typical Liver dog with a too soft textured coat that gets easily sun damaged or cold air damaged if outdoors. The dog seriously lacks grooming and most of the lighter stuff you see should have been "stripped" out with a knife or coat king tool. Some dogs who are spayed or have hormone imbalances will also look like this. Pretty common to see in spayed or neutered dogs where the hormones restrict proper shedding or old and dead coat. This "fuzzies" are also often seen in dogs with Thyroid issues. If it is just poor management in grooming then much can be fixed as I described in caring for a liver coated dog.
Addendum after Original Posting: This dog is also a Liver Tricolor !
doganjo wrote:
There were also 3 orange and whites with liver overlay on their backs and very trimmed ears. Food for thought I think in light of a ban on 'sable'
Of course we can pretend these are dark Orange, mahogany, or caramel colored but in fact they are Liver based Sables. Noses are darker than a rose (double liver orange dog), and can be slightly lighter than a true liver nose color. Frankly why hide the liver ears by trimming them short?
If one wanted to follow the edict of eliminating this color eventually, one would not use any dogs harboring this coloration, use DNA testing to try and save lines and identify littermates and relatives within a line free of the ay gene factor. JMHO
Thanks for the good photos and examples of how variant thes problem coats can be and how erroneous registrations start to get into the pedigrees we have. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
Thank you for your explanation of the various photos. This subject is fascinating and it is really helpful to have colour photos to study. I think the 'sable gene' is much more widespread than we originally thought. _________________ If your dog thinks you are the best do not seek a second opinion!
Yes, Goldie, thanks from me too for that explanation. I decided to post the photos without giving my own opinion but I agree entirely with yours. I wish I had taken note of them numbers now to see what happened in the rings. I am pretty sure that at least one of the orange ones with the trimmed ears was given an excellent and actually made the 'cut' It seems as Gay says they are more widespread than at first imagined and will be more difficult if not impossible to eliminate. We must remember that in a litter with a sable it's siblings will have a good chance of having the gene too, so they can continue to pass it down the line. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
Thank you for your explanation of the various photos. This subject is fascinating and it is really helpful to have colour photos to study. I think the 'sable gene' is much more widespread than we originally thought.
I could see this comming some 10 years ago at the National at Soissons.
Many tried to get a concensus on how to handle these "off" colors that were comming up. Since my experience in German Shepherds gave me some insight into the inheretance of thsi color and the fact that it is dominant over Tan point I was rather surprised that so many felt it was not dominant at all. Of course now we know otherwise and being a dominant gene can easily be removed in a relatively short period of time if only folks will use the tools available to them. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
. Of course now we know otherwise and being a dominant gene can easily be removed in a relatively short period of time if only folks will use the tools available to them.
And those are? _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
. Of course now we know otherwise and being a dominant gene can easily be removed in a relatively short period of time if only folks will use the tools available to them.
And those are?
Using the Genetic Color Chart to select mates.
Look at prospective Orange dogs carefully to see if they have black (black based Sables) or Liver whiskers (Liver based sables).
Do DNA test on litters that produce sables to find those that are not carrying in the litter if any.
If the Parents are not Tricolors and they produced sables then test them to find out if one or both are carriers. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
2. Black and a little white with liver on muzzle and above eyes but nowhere else
This dog is just like the pups I had out of Oscar. They are born Black and White but do not turn Tricolor until after 3 months of age. This is another example of the gene that times the turning factor on and off. Depending on a countries registration system and time frames it shoule be properly called a Tri even if the feet markings are restricted mostly. This correlates to the "muddiness" that is considered undesiarable in the Gordon Setter Standard. This is still a "real" tricolor as the color intensity is too bright to be a "Phantom"
This is NOT a true tricolour under the UK standard! But goodness knows what we can call it!! I sure don't know. As I said it only had liver (not tan) on the eyebrows and the muzzle - nowhere else!
Quote:
Colour
Orange/white, liver/white, black/white, tri-colour, or roan of any of these colours. Nose dark or harmony with coat colour. Black/white and liver/white tricolours to have orange markings over eyes, on sides of muzzle, either side of chest, on inside of front legs and outside from knee and below, on inside of hind legs and outside from stifle and below and around vent.
NOR the FCI standard of 2003 - I have not yet had sight of the altered standard to take account of the 'sable' colouration.
Quote:
Colour
Equally, in the case of tricolour coats, with tan spotting (orange to dark tan) on the top and sides of the muzzle, over the eyes, on the limbs, on the chest and over the base of the tail.
_________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
2. Black and a little white with liver on muzzle and above eyes but nowhere else
This dog is just like the pups I had out of Oscar. They are born Black and White but do not turn Tricolor until after 3 months of age. This is another example of the gene that times the turning factor on and off. Depending on a countries registration system and time frames it shoule be properly called a Tri even if the feet markings are restricted mostly. This correlates to the "muddiness" that is considered undesiarable in the Gordon Setter Standard. This is still a "real" tricolor as the color intensity is too bright to be a "Phantom"
This is NOT a true tricolour under the UK standard! But goodness knows what we can call it!! I sure don't know. As I said it only had liver (not tan) on the eyebrows and the muzzle - nowhere else!
Quote:
Colour
Orange/white, liver/white, black/white, tri-colour, or roan of any of these colours. Nose dark or harmony with coat colour. Black/white and liver/white tricolours to have orange markings over eyes, on sides of muzzle, either side of chest, on inside of front legs and outside from knee and below, on inside of hind legs and outside from stifle and below and around vent.
NOR the FCI standard of 2003 - I have not yet had sight of the altered standard to take account of the 'sable' colouration.
Quote:
Colour
Equally, in the case of tricolour coats, with tan spotting (orange to dark tan) on the top and sides of the muzzle, over the eyes, on the limbs, on the chest and over the base of the tail.
First off it was a genetic impossability to have a dog carrying both Liver and black hair colorations. And sof ar it is considered still to be impossible, but....So the first thing you MUST remove from your mind is this dog is NOT black and Liver.
Why it appears liverish is due to the fact that the hair shaft still contains "particles" of unchanged or restricted Black granules. This affects how the light is refracted in the hairshaft. Genetically we see this same effect in various correct marked Tricolors where in some dogs their Orange points are fire red, some are deadgrass tan, and some are so tiny you have to look for a handful of orange hairs in the point regions of the face yet their legs are heavily marked Orange. This is the effect of switching genes. We know that the "K" locus is resposible for how much and where in the hair shaft the color Blac"K" is seen. We also know the the "b" brown locus also affect what shade of "Liver" we see bassed on which of the 3 'b' genes (b1,b2,b3 with 1 or zero copies)are in combination together.
Since I am a curious person with regards to genetics and feel it is important to understand this from the standpoint of a "breeder" I have no problem spending money when it concerns my dogs. And from the many DNA samples submitted to research in the early days I was privy to finding out such mysteries of many of my imported dogs colorations. That is why I wrote the color article, and why I continue to update my article as the research comes available.
What was unusual is that each country focus on specific research and shares DNA data through a national database where all countries get access. It was surprising for Pierre to find out that the France researchers did not know about the ay locus testing that is available here in various USA and Canadian laboratories. But then here in the USA we have many dollars invested by various breed clubs into genetic research, hence the early finding on PRA genes and other debilitating diseases of metabolism. Color is on the low end of research...but when govt funds were approved various groups made their choice and offerd reserch parameters for funds. Many here focused on temperaments and interesting it was discovered in that research many color connections....the information on the K locus was uncovered in California, while the Agouti gene research was done mostly in Canada, white spoting mechanics was uncovered by those researching cattle spotting factors. So here it seems there is much more cooperation between genetic researchers with less ambition it seems to be the sole finder of gene info, most papers these days are being publish with joint colaboration through many labs and countries.
_________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
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