What must be remembered is that the UK is a relatively small area compared to Australia and America. We also have a relatively small number of Brittanys, unlike USA. In the past any health problems have been picked up extremely quickly and eradicated. The Brittany Club does have a Health Co-ordinator - who is also our Vice Chairman - Kathy Gorman. Might I suggest that ALL UK enquiries, recommendations, or suggestions should be sent to her as well as being discussed on here. kathy.gorman@fossedata.co.uk or walgoreg@aol.com possibly also soon health@brittanyclub.co.uk once my son (Donald) has set up our new email addresses. Any information from other countries will no doubt be of interest but possibly not relevant in our own gene pool.
Personally I have never heard of any eye problems in the UK other than degenerative cataracts, and they have been very few - I think our last Chairman reported one some years ago. However, that said, it doesn't do to be complacent, but by the same token we need not go on an extensive health kick. We sent out health enquiry forms on three separate occasions as I remember, with very few owners reporting any problems. Since this covers other health issues as well as eyes perhaps Guy might copy some of this thread into the health section under a general heading? _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
I don't think the Brittany has anything to do with English Springers...And whilst I think being careful and monitoring the breed is a very good idea, I also don't see any reason to panic in comparison to others breeds( which I frankly wouldn't touch as it would freak me out )
I see the Brittany as relatively healthy and tough-on the whole-
I have however had a bitch go blind at 7 years and her ancestors are widely spread in the UK's population. She was tested by her owners in Newmarket but I am not aware it was anything hereditary...
I am also aware that all -or 99% of our UK stock- is from french descendants and there are sometimes things that have been mentioned to me in passing or I picked up on the Forum.ie, undershot teeth or slipping patellas, and the odd fit. So I guess many US French Brittanys dogs are also descended from similar stock and it is good to have some idea of what such or such dog may carry in its line...
No use sweeping things under the carpet but to over react is not constructive either
If we know of problems it is good to share it, and breeders may be able not to double up on certain dogs.
Agreed, Patricia. Perhaps any health test results might be entered into the database which is now widely available through the Club website? That would help potential breeders, but again I must stress, the UK has a totally different owner and breeder regime and different traditions from many other countries. Anything that may work in the States for instance might not be usefully applied here. As an example there are only a handful of fairly regular breeders in the UK, (I reckon 4 or 5 at most)many Brittanys in the UK are bred by people with only one or two dogs. I have traced four larger breeders(having produced over 70 dogs) and two of those have now stopped breeding, although they may still have dogs at stud. The rest of them have bred much less than that number. we only have about 3500 registered Brittanys in the UK, and perhaps a similar number of unregistered ones whose breeders may not be interested in health problems in any case - we can do little about that to be honest. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting that we should panic about this, that was not my intention. I was also not suggesting that there was a direct genetic link between English Springer Spaniels and Brittanys.
The point that I was trying to make (rather poorly, as it turns out), is that a late-onset PRA condition can easily infiltrate the gene pool because affected dogs would be bred prior to their condition being known.
The example of the ESS was just to show how widespread such a late onset genetic condition can become in a breed before breeders realize that it is a problem.
In most breeds, PRA is a recessive condition, which means that even though there may be only a small number of affected individuals, there may be many carriers. According to the Hardy-Weinberg formula, if only 1/100 individuals are affected, 20% of the breed will be carriers.
My point is that without a DNA test, a late-onset recessive condition can be very difficult to eradicate or even control.
I'm certainly not suggesting that we panic, but complacency would also be ill-advised.
The point that I was trying to make (rather poorly, as it turns out), is that a late-onset PRA condition can easily infiltrate the gene pool because affected dogs would be bred prior to their condition being known.
Actually even late onset diseases can be detected in the early stages. That is why annual testing is recommended, which can turn out to be an expensive option for a small breeder. If we had a problem I would certainly recommend event the smallest breeder (such as myself) having annual tests done, but as Patricia rightly says, these are not ESS and we don't have the problems with eyes, or in fact anything else, that other breeds and other countries may have. So don't worry, you won't start a panic here in the UK. We have pretty sound stock overall as far as I can gather from the surveys we have done from time to time.. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
The advantage of a DNA screen will be only one test for life (and no tests required for offspring of clear parents), so it would be cost-effective for breeders once the research is done and the original breeding stock DNA-tested.
I have enquired with Animal Health Trust. (Registered address: Lanwades Park, Kentford, Newmarket, Suffolk, CB8 7UU, Registered Charity no: 209642) about what would be required to develop a DNA screen for Brittanys. This is the reply that I received to my email:
"Ok, have spoken with our research dept - in order to proceed with looking at this eye problem:-
a) we would need DNA samples from 24 dogs that have been eye tested by an ophthalmologist and confirmed affected, we need a copy of the eye test certificate and pedigree and any other relevant health test certificates
b) we would need DNA samples from 24 dogs that have eye tested by an ophthalmologist and confirmed clear but they must be aged 8 years or older (in fact the older the better) together with a copy of the eye test certificate taken after their eight birthday or older, the pedigree and any other relevant health certificates.
To progress this would be around GB£10,000, however a donation towards this would be helpful as we may be able to apply for funding elsewhere as long as we have the relevant DNA samples to process.
regards
Symone Ingram"
So, if we can find 24 affected Brittanys, & 24 clear aged 8 or more, it looks like Animal Health Trust will apply for funding to do the research.
I know that I sound like a worrywort, but if Brittanys reach the stage of 10% of the breed affected, then according to the Hardy-Weinberg formula, the affected + carriers in the population will exceed 50%. This is what makes recessives hard to breed out.
So, if we can find 24 affected Brittanys, & 24 clear aged 8 or more, it looks like Animal Health Trust will apply for funding to do the research.
I doubt very much if there are even 5 Brittanys in the UK with an eye problem of any kind. Perhaps you might find enough worldwide if you want to try. But whether the AHT would fund an international "problem" (personally I don't think there is one) I would be doubtful. Perhaps you could ask them. How many Brittanys are ther in Australia, Gundoglover? _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
Yes, we can provide samples from different countries as long as there are equal numbers of affected and clear dogs in the samples from each country. I don't know how many Brittanys are in Australia (but there would be fewer than in the UK), nor do I know of any PRA-affected dogs, but I have emailed Aust breeders that I know eye-test their dogs to see if there is any interest. It doesn't seem impossible when the numbers required are modest.
If we have just over 3000 dogs registered in the UK 10% is 300 and we only have 380 approx hip scored [and that's over the last 25 years] I cannot see you getting 10% of people willing to eyetest here. This is also presuming that that;
a] the dog is old enough
and
b] the owners could be contacted and asked to participate given that we have not got that many members in the Brittany Club.......not sure of the exact figures but around 250/300 Most of them don't hip score so I cannot see them forking out for eyetests that they could say are not needed.
After all most of them won't pay for the test for the 'sable' gene either _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
Hummmm.....I think you will be pushed to find any way near the required number in ther UK. Clear yes, affected, I would be suprised. It may pay to ask the question on a bigger Forum like the English speaking section on the French one. It has many countries and thousand of members belonging to it. As well as breeders and Professionals which makes it very interesting.( to me in any case reading the French subjects)
I feel we have enough to worry about without looking for more trouble????
In over 22 years, I have come across slipping patellas, bad hips, the odd fitter, one Addison more recently.
In addition, it looks as if you have crosses of American X French Brittanys. and though I am NOT going to get into this one again, it is a different population to the UK. We can track back all the UK stock and even better now on the " livre d'elevage" on the CEB site. Even the Irish stock comes from De Sous Les Viviers, Kerryvan, etc...so traceable.
Further, as Anne states , there are few regular breeders here, why I don't know, maybe because the mentality in not so HPR minded Labs and Springers for working dogs???
Many I doubt even hip score in the non members population, never mind, eye test??? Should someone report a problem to our health coordinator, I am quite sure the commitee would look into it and take relevant action, but it would be for breeding stock as you can't force people to test...
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Most of them don't hip score so I cannot see them forking out for eyetests that they could say are not needed.
Labs and Springers for working dogs???