Having just returned from a wonderful week at National Gundog and Bournemouth, thanks to both judges for making Briafael (Paddy) a SH.CH subject to KC confirmation. Just a few points to stimulate conversation.
Paddy has a relatively high hipscore but I wonder how many Brittany's there are with the same condition with no apparent affects even into old age. If you compare his movement in the ring to other dogs of maybe lower hipscore then you will see why he achieved his awards.
If we accept that every dog will have its faults then what can possibly be wrong with showing a dog of this wonderful temperament and sound confirmation, considering the events at National Gundog where a judge withheld.
Many thanks to Bill for showing Pads in the Group he looked great!
By the way, dog showing should be fun, win or lose!
I agree dog showing is a fun sport in the UK, but it isn't seen that way in every country. I can't see a problem with showing a dog with a high hip score providing it isn't bred from. I showed Bonnie for a number of years with a great deal of success, numerous Best of breeds up and down the country - she was retired at 11 years of age, just prior to CC's in 1997. Her hip score was 30/28 and despite being told by a senior member of the then committee of the Club we should mate her to our low scoring dog at the time (Brett - was a 4/4/) we refused to do so. It would have been a good mating (Dorvalstan lines) but we didn't want to produce pups with possible problems. Bonnie lived to 17 years and three months.
Congratulations Jayne - you're in my breed notes for both next week and the week after. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
Staying on the hips theme. I started in Welsh 30 years ago NOT hip scoring, (In those days it wasn't usual to hip score). Of course I bred from my first Welsh 3 times! I did hip score her at the age of 7 and she had a score of 30-10. Well all I can say is that it has plauged my breeding ever since. I have used a succession of low scored dogs to help but still it has come back to bite me. So be carfull when you breed in my experience bad hips are very difficult to get rid of.
As far as showing, it is possibe to have high hips and still for the dog to move really well and you can have low hips and the dog moves badly. Hips are not the only joint in the hind quarters and a dog will move what is comfortable for its self.
As the Brittany dosn't have length in its back (or shouldn't have) I see most of them moving there back legs to one side to get around the ring. Of course that is why they have this short clipped gait to avoid that.
Even with a very high hip score providing the results are even then a dog should move straight. It's when the score is very uneven that you usually see the problem then the dog may move erratically. Although, of course, there are other things that can cause a dog to move unevenly on the day.
I would query that a dog with a very high hip score could be said to be of sound confirmation as by definition a high hip score means the dog has a problem [in the structural sense] if not in movement and as such I would think very hard and long before including such a dog in any breeding programme, if at all. I would also look long and hard at the pedigree behind the parents of such a dog before breeding from them again in the same combination. But there again these are just my thoughts and others may think different. _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
Bonnie's father was put down at 9 because of his bad hips. He sired three litters before he had any pain but hadn't been hip scored - in those early days it wasn't done so regularly, so no scores are available for any of Bonnie's siblings or half siblings either.
Quote:
But these days we have the facilities and are encouraged to have hips x-rayed before mating - hips are done from 1 year old, and breeding bitches usually from 2 years, dogs perhaps earlier
Apparently what I have said above can be misconstrued to read that I advise hip scoring dogs at one year and breeding bitches at two years? The question was asked - Why should there be any difference
That isn't what I meant. I meant that all dogs can (and in my view should) be hip scored from 1 year old onwards and bitches are usually not bred until at least after two years, but dogs are sometimes bred earlier. I told the person querying this that I'd edit it if that is what people think I meant, so I have done.
My apologies to those who can't read my mind _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
Jan,
I have had more than 25 of my own dogs hip scored and there are more than 70 Highclare's in the hip scoring sceme.
I can tell you that it is clinically possible to have a very good straight mover on a high hip score. My top winning Welsh Ch Highclare Energizer won 28 CC including a BIS at an all breed Champ show and she use to storms around the ring and she has a hip score of 32 not even.
Of course when you get cricket scores of above 60 and don't keep the dog fit then you would see the difference in the movement.
I know many dogs that have hip scores in single figures and move very very badly.
Hips are a big concern in Welsh so we have got to know alot about the problem. Because the problem is big then we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and we have to take big decisions about breeding from quite high hips!!!!!!
Just reading Nigel Dear's book HPR dogs for work and showing. In this he argues that a dog should not be bred from unless it's hip score is "significantly below the BMS". He suggests for the Vizsla which has a BMS of 12 parents with scores of 10 or less should be used. What are the suggested upper scores, among breeders, for the Brittany? _________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
Jan,
I have had more than 25 of my own dogs hip scored and there are more than 70 Highclare's in the hip scoring sceme.
I can tell you that it is clinically possible to have a very good straight mover on a high hip score. My top winning Welsh Ch Highclare Energizer won 28 CC including a BIS at an all breed Champ show and she use to storms around the ring and she has a hip score of 32 not even.
Of course when you get cricket scores of above 60 and don't keep the dog fit then you would see the difference in the movement.
I know many dogs that have hip scores in single figures and move very very badly.
Hips are a big concern in Welsh so we have got to know alot about the problem. Because the problem is big then we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and we have to take big decisions about breeding from quite high hips!!!!!!
Gill and the Mabeleen
I think you will find that this is what I have said above Gill. _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
At present the average total is 17 in our breed. No-one has set a recommended level. Personally I only breed with dogs below that average - the highest I have is Belle with 14, but I don't know whether the Committee would be prepared to go as far as stating a maximum. To be honest the puppy register only says parents should be hip scored. It doesn't say they should be below the average. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
To be honest the puppy register only says parents should be hip scored. It doesn't say they should be below the average
Seems a bit pointless then, don't you think? Why bother hip scoring if you're not then going to use the information to improve the breed by, for example, breeding for lower hip scores?
These may be silly questions but please forgive me. I'm not a breeder neither do I have the obvious levels of experience in these matters that others on this forum have, but I am willing to learn.
_________________ My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
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My apologies to those who can't read my mind 