I still consider them one and the same breed as do many "French Officials" not posting publically.
I wonder why they do not post publicly? what are they afraid of? Discussion?
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I do not intentionally cross the two
I take it from that statement that you may have had accidental cross matings. If you believe them to be the same breed I am surprised these are not intentional matings. It is good to have a lecture on the subject from someone with knowledge of both breeds, or as you see them types. To a certain extent I can understand your thoughts because I've seen photos of one or two coloured dogs that resemble more the French ones - perhaps the oranges show up the differences more?
I do not know what others do in a breeding program....
But I for one try to select dogs to breed together that are healthy, sound, have as close to the desired traits I am seeking, and whose pedigrees are proven to provide those traits. I do understand that most consider breeding an experiment and a crap shoot at best...but then it really should not be....if you have an understanding of genetic traits and what is dominant and how to use that information, one can make pretty good strides in the direction one wants to head to.
For most people breeding is mostly economics....they have to place those puppies they themselves do not wish to keep, so, they do not publically speak about thier health issues or faults for the most part. Pretty typical human nature....I find this same policy when speaking about the AB vs EB debate. Why many do not speak publically is because of political/personal aspirations where they feel they can do the most good is quietly behind the scenes, or because they feel they will be outcasted or prevented from "winning" with their dogs. If you speak to enough "old-timers" you will find and hear about the political nature of trialing and showing in France, and the struggle between the birthplace of the breed and the parisians in dictating breed policy. I know this happens everywhere and not just in the country of origin.
As for the structure and dysplasia issue I have lived it as a breeder of Ger. Shepherds. From the time I was a 12 yr old I collected and filed away all of the Hip Dysplasia Symposiums(world compendiums) booklets that were published and made available for purchase. The so called PennHip proceedure has been in existance prior to PennHip claiming it back in the 1970's.
Anyone who is serious about fixing a problem can do the research and read all the scientific data on the dogs who were affected and the ones that were not. One can read about the width of the normal pelvis and the zone of weight bearing and how all pups are "born" normal and how the first 60days of life is critical to developement from the polygenetic part of the disease and how to reduce some of this environmental component so that one is only looking at the genetics.
I still maintain that standardized radiographs can be used to help reduce CHD my foundation bitch when I lived in Hawaii was dysplastic in a classic "stovepipe" appearance with arthrosis. From that same bitch in 2 generations I got whole litters OFA good and excellent. But so long as "breeders" make it optional for Hip Scoring they will never know what their lines contain or ever correct their program. Without full pedigree depth(many generations more than 3) and breadth (full litter) of hip scores you have ZERO information about your breeding program. Even if PennHip is a great tool for measuring ligament length it os only as good as the same pedigree data I mention above. Without full records you cannot base a breeding choice on a single dogs score, this is why breeding A to A is no guarantee or breeding great score to great score does not work. If you do not have information on all littermates of the selected dog and have a good depth of pedigree (large numbers of generations) you have absolutley nothing to work with period.
I hear on these forums about being a "hobby" breeder and that it is done for fun and that no "small breeder" wants to spend the money to do "tests" and assume that their program is disease free "because no one mentions any health issues". When one operates on these "false Ideals" that is where a breed looses in the end. And even those breeders who do the right thing get hurt as they have a much harder time finding dogs that will fit their breeding goals as the "others" are not on the same page.
I do not know what the average puppy goes for, but at least for me my time is not part of the equation...and so the testing and food is the primary expenses. The showing is recreation and an expense I would be paying anyway...if I want to think of profits only then one would certainly cut corners and that is why puppy farmers crank out back to back litters and or breed a bitch 6-8 times in her lifetime to make back "money". And then there are some who only want fame so they finish titles on mediocre dogs and then place them in pet homes afterwards just to say their kennel produced "quality # of champions". Everyone has thier own agenda and program and needs...that is just what it is.
Frankly, as far a CHD goes if the registries truely want to help improve health in breeds, they would take in all affected radiographs and record them for "Free", the main reason most do not submit affected is, why should they pay to have an "obviously bad result read", If the fees were to be returned then the databases would be much more accurate.
It is a pretty sad testiment to read what is written here that only maybe 10 dogs are recorded to one parent and it was say a popular stud...there is something very wrong...definatley a lack of caring in my way of thinking, or obviously a poor production record as only 10 were evaluated??? at least that is what I would be thinking.
Oh by the way Doogie would have finished his AKC show championship had he been groomed for it and he would have finished very easily just about anywhere in the USA...so would that make him a poor EB or just a good example of the generic liver colored "Brittany population" in the USA? I had two AB friends look at him after I saw him and one professional handler who felt he would finish easily. I know I could have finished him here in the PNW as he was much better than many dogs shown at that time. I did not care for his maner of working but I attribute it mostly to the way he was raised and trained with too much control, somehting that could be easily fixed using some regression work. Hopefully the folk who have him now appreciate him much better.
Even with the USA being as big as it is those who are active and dedicated to the breed knows what goes on in the breed everywhere.
And by the way DC Tara was last years ABC National Specialty BOB, she is also NOT OFA hip certified/ she has a PennHip score which is not available to the public...another aversion I have with PennHip not having a publically searchable database.
And yes I do have an AB/EB combination male that I treat as an AB and will continue to use in my AB breeding program pending hip and eye certification he is clear Liver and White, he has a rather steep pelvis which he got from his EB parent, better bone from his AB parent and hopefully the strong hip genes form his AB lines. Interestingly some AB owners have no prejudice against the EB as far as conformation and type go, they have a color fear against Black because the AKC standard disqualifies it, and so if your great pup in the litter is of the worng color you can't compete with it...that is the problem that exists in the USA and Canada and no where else in the world. Sad fate for a breed....
And yes got to get back to my boxing/cleaning chores. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
Goldie, that was honestly very interesting reading. I think you have some good theories there, and I am sure we would like to hear more of the actual figures to back up your various points - if you have time, please.
And on a personal basis, I have always suspected what you say below
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Oh by the way Doogie would have finished his AKC show championship had he been groomed for it and he would have finished very easily just about anywhere in the USA...so would that make him a poor EB or just a good example of the generic liver colored "Brittany population" in the USA? I had two AB friends look at him after I saw him and one professional handler who felt he would finish easily. I know I could have finished him here in the PNW as he was much better than many dogs shown at that time. I did not care for his maner of working but I attribute it mostly to the way he was raised and trained with too much control, somehting that could be easily fixed using some regression work. Hopefully the folk who have him now appreciate him much better.
and I was so disappointed that his title was not completed. Steve bought him from me and was so enthusiastic when he arrived, and it was Sherry I understand, who, after their marriage, decided his hunt drive wasn't strong enough - at 18 months or so I was told. A litter was taken from him prior to Chuck and Martha getting him (presumably to offset all the import costs), but I haven't any idea how they turned out. I understand that Chuck has him out shooting regularly in season now so his hunt drive must have miraculously appeared I am so pleased you liked him - he was pick of that litter from the dogs. I always let my best pups go to homes where they will be shown/worked more than I could if I kept them. I was lucky keeping Freckles but was unable to travel the distances to shows to make her up with her final ticket, and I think at 8 years she won't do it now.
I don't breed often but I do take great care of what I breed from and to when I do - as you do. Thank you for the complement. _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
A litter was taken from him prior to Chuck and Martha getting him (presumably to offset all the import costs),
Anne, I have seen one of Doogie's daughters. She belongs to Bill Kelley. She is called Goldie funnily enough...She was mated I believe to his dog " Cachet". Bill is also supposed to have a pup from Baileys's sister Bastille in exechnge from some training done on Arius de St Lubin.
But I am not sure how the whole situation is going. Like Doogie, I found Victoria's quartering restricted and yet with her father like she has
Goldie, we try to have as many dogs hip scored as we can but unless we paid for the potential owners's hips scoring -which is a minimum of £120-per dog, that would be a bit expensive. People do the hips who are either interested, or want to breed themselves. That limits us. There are huge steps being done by the Animal health in Newmarket on all sorts and it is very positive for many breeds.
I agree with you about ALL hips being good or bad should be read and published. We would have trueer figures. In an ideal world....
I have a friend on the continent who charges more for her puppies but reimburses half the hip score once she has seen a copy of the official entry of her scores. She has plenty of people wanting pups from her and so far has achieved a 100% uptake on having her puppies scored. Ok, she is a small breeder who is a vet nurse by profession and breeding long-haired weimaraners.
A strategy to ponder? But in the UK we need to educate the 'public' to see the relevance of health screening as something other than a knee-jerk reaction to a tv programme. We are allegedly a nation of animal lovers but I see little evidence of that fact in my dealings with many (bad day dealing with rescue issues for both weims and ESS ). _________________ Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.
I have a friend on the continent who charges more for her puppies but reimburses half the hip score once she has seen a copy of the official entry of her scores.
BINGO !
That is what happens most of the time here in the USA, pet or not they are charged for Xrays and such listed on the sales agreement. When they get it done they get rebated. Many also do this for basic woking titles like Hunt Testing or NAVHDA testing. While a small incentive it is still an incentive. We also give a 1 year intor membership to a puppy buyer to the club...pet buyer or not, sometimes gettng a magazine initiates them to look into competitions when they see the names and photos of dogs in the magazine. Some get drawn into the game that way.
All of course helps the breed in the end and also fosters education.
Another thing that many do here in the USA is have Radiograph "parties"
We contract with a Veterinarian for a day he is closed to the public and have it a club xray day at a discounted rate, much like how we also have Eye CERF clinics at many dog shows. Since we cannot move xray machines around unless you are a Large animal practitioner and has a portable unit it must be done at a clinic location.
We are also given "Breeder/kennel" rates in the USA by OFA so when we submit 3 or more dogs in the same envelope to OFA we get a discount.
As a breeder I collect all xrays from my litters and submit them at one time so everyone gets the discounted rate on submission. It goes a long way into getting compliance. Of course many do not respond or do it, but if I try and organize it all and put a time frame on it when checking in on the pups it goes to getting many scored much of the time. _________________ Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA
We also give a 1 year intor membership to a puppy buyer to the club...pet buyer or not, sometimes gettng a magazine initiates them to look into competitions when they see the names and photos of dogs in the magazine. Some get drawn into the game that way.
All of course helps the breed in the end and also fosters education.
I have always done that.
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As a breeder I collect all xrays from my litters and submit them at one time so everyone gets the discounted rate on submission. It goes a long way into getting compliance. Of course many do not respond or do it, but if I try and organize it all and put a time frame on it when checking in on the pups it goes to getting many scored much of the time.
Our KC/BVA Scheme doesn't allow this. Each owner must submit the dog for x-ray, and the Vet submits the plates to the BVA.
Just goes to show the differences between our countries. What do other countries do - Australia, New Zealand? _________________ Annie
Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away
The trouble is here Goldie that the British do not like being coerced into doing anything.
I hope Patricia doesn't mind me talking about her but Chase (bred by her) is endorsed so I can't register progeny, some people who have approached me interested in using him at stud are incensed when I tell them this. Now I bought him knowing he would be endorsed and I accepted that fact and know what it would take to lift said endorsement ................ I know that a certain number of criteria have to be fulfilled AND Patricia has to have final discretion. As I say - dog bought knowing this and accepting this and if anything changes in the future that would be solely up to Patricia. If she had asked me to sign a contract saying I WOULD hip score him I would and if I had a 'help' towards that cost then I would ....... but I have had him eye tested too when there is no need, because I am interested whether he has progeny or not as I feel data is important.
But take me back a few years before my weim had massive health problems and I was a typical pet owner who didn't know breed clubs existed for anyone other than people who showed, that didn't know about or understand health testing. I was a caring pet owner - but a very ignorant one. In the UK we have a massive job to educate in a calm and rational manner and I very much fear that those passionate enough to care are in the minority, especially as our Kennel Club is flawed and currently under attack and therefore trying to please all while serving none. _________________ Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.
Frankly, as far a CHD goes if the registries truely want to help improve health in breeds, they would take in all affected radiographs and record them for "Free", the main reason most do not submit affected is, why should they pay to have an "obviously bad result read", If the fees were to be returned then the databases would be much more accurate.
I'm not sure this would make much difference over here as a lot of people who do have bad looking x-rays don't want the information made public for other people to know!
The breeder of my dogs has always been willing to pay for all the puppies she has bred to be hip/shoulder/eye and now elbow tested too. _________________ karen
Things are always different in various countries. When I buy an adult in France, we get the Xray plates. Here, the vet retains them.
I had to buy them when I sent those awful Xrays back to Leon Lelouet to be brought up at committee. They had a problem with hips.
It costs £35 to get the BVA to read the Xrays, from a minimum of £120 to anesthesise the dog. Much more in other parts of the country, less up maybe in Scotland? To pay for elbows, eyes etc..would be an awful lot of money for the breeder to pay unless the said breed was expensive-ie £800 to 900- Brittanys roughly sell for £450, 500 or a bit more according to age, quality and achievement of parents.
You add the docking, microchipping, tattooing- for my own benefit, so I can have my name on the Register always- plus all other costs, stud fee etc etc... and would it cover costs?
Though some would, many wouldn't. As Sue says, you can't force the English to do something, you have to explain and educate.
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I am so pleased you liked him - he was pick of that litter from the dogs. I always let my best pups go to homes where they will be shown/worked more than I could if I kept them. I was lucky keeping Freckles but was unable to travel the distances to shows to make her up with her final ticket, and I think at 8 years she won't do it now. 
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