The Brittany Forum

Patricia · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: new bloodlines

We are hoping that in a few months there will be additional lines here. 2 more Keranlouan- but yet other dogs present such as Prince du Hameau de la Baronniere, Junior de Coat an Duc, de Stang ar Foll, but also de St Tudec which though includes the famous Indy also brings Lurky and du Sulon too.
Those dogs are chosen from breeders who work their stock ...but also strive for correct conformation. Both Andy and I look forward to see how the youngsters will develop thumbup

nothing wrong with their ability in the field at their tender age!

doganjo · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject:

That's fine but there' s no line breeding involved - these will be outcrosses to most of our UK stock so you won't be able to set type. I'm sure they will definitely bring a lot to our lines but it will take time to settle type. Already there are only a few people line breeding in the UK.
_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

Wyngold · Bretonnier Joined: 14 May 2007 Posts: 131

Hmmmm....seems to be a fair amt. of linebreeding to what you already have in the UK...
Hameau de Baronere goes back to St. Tugen, Indy back to Ska/St. tugen, etc.

I find that most french lines are not very far outcrossed they all go back to the same old champions just recombined differently.
_________________
Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA

Patricia · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:39 am Post subject:

You are right Goldie...Indeed may top french dogs have those combinations.
But I don't know how many have Lurky in their pedigrees or a some I have listed in the UK. Please point them out Jan or Anne?
Regarding the St Tudec I have done it for myself as I like the dog I have used. Anne, there are many possibilities to line breed with what we are bringing in. The tailless one being for myself as, as you well know I don't want tails in my kennels. Evil or Very Mad

Goldie, finding outcrosses is not proving quite so simple and either I don't like the look of them or their working books is not brilliant...and I would need a lot of time touring to see them in the flesh.
One I like was Varn de Cornouaille and also appreciated his breeders' honesty. Tour de France here we come Rolling Eyes

doganjo · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject:

I didn't meant that the new imports aren't line bred. I daresay they are. But there aren't many dogs line bred in the UK so they will be outcrosses to the new French ones - unless you go back a good few generations. By line breeding I mean three or four generations. A lot of UK dogs have lines back to the top French Kennels but they are quite distant, and although one dog may have four lines to four different top kennels - that doesn't make it line bred.
_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

Patricia · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject:

And I thought the KC wanted to encourage a good gene pool?
Surely having a little more new blood is a good thing? Anyway,neither Andy or I went to buy, more to look at the new stock of young dogs and visit Patrick- whom I really like-
We went to mate my bitch and whilst in Brittany did a small tour of 2 kennels. Not enough time to do more and 1600 miles later!
We happened to see a little Black male who reminded me of Lorca a bit. He was my special dog and the best male I had, so who can blame me for wanting another like him Wink

Line breeding: I will only line breed to something outstanding and whose background I know well without any hidden agendas!

doganjo · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject:

I think we are now onto a discussion on the arguments for and against line breeding.

I was always taught that one line breeds A) to establish type; B) to consolidate the good points in a line and C) to eliminate bad points in a line (whether for health or conformation reasons)

I was also taught by my Cocker mentors to line breed inwards for three generations then outwards (outcross) for one, then back in again, always taking account of good and bad attributes.

If one needs to take in new bloodlines into an established line then these are the outcrosses, but one has to be aware that the outcross itself may be heavily line bred. So when using an outcross it's lines must also be compared to the established line bred pedigree of the dog concerned.

If one doesn't have an established line then an outcross to a heavily linebred dog that is distantly related to a dog or bitch could help establish a firm line.

In my opinion, because a number of UK Brittanys are not at all line bred, (that is, the Sire and Dam have been mated solely because they are good specimens rather than also bred along the same lines) in breeding them to French dogs that are perhaps line bred down one avenue which bears no relationship to ours, we can either have total outcrossing producing completely different types all in the same litter, OR, (if it is done with thought and care), we could establish a good consistent type.

So, to take Lurky for instance, assuming he is not related to any UK Brittanys(I don't know if he is or not - give me the names of some of his progeny and I'll check), any progeny from him would be a total outcross to any UK Brittanys and could (not would, but could) produce random types.

I know what I mean but I suspect what I have just typed looks as clear as sludge Embarassed

_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

Wyngold · Bretonnier Joined: 14 May 2007 Posts: 131

Well many Lines have Varim des Sources Claires...hence "Lurky" and others that contain Varim are in essence Linebred....and Yes, they are not outcrosses to what you have just little tweaks here in there and hoping you get some new combined genes to work with.

The only way I have fond pedigrees that were not related was to look at many litters advertised in the Hunting magazines by hunters.

Definately much more diversity if one was looking for such!!!

I am not for "too" much diversity, but I think the French lines are not as diverse as one wants us to think. The genetic research article done by the French university alludes to this fact. I think that those who have crossbred both in the USA and france to the assorted pointers and setters have probably helped the breed in the long run. Although I would certianly do without some of the Boxer/Hound blood that was infused...

As for Line vs. Out crossing....Both have their virtues. Those who breed show dogs tend to feel that Line is better than Out. Those who breed for performance often seek Out because they wish to minimize defects by hiding them and focus on trait selections. So both work....Personally I do line breed...but "IF" I could find a line that was prepotent for traits that was a product of at least 3 enerations of assorted matings I would jump at it as that would be a line of dogs that produce traits firmly and with a pedigree that could be used anywhere...JMHO
_________________
Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA

doganjo · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject:

I agree with a lot of that, Goldie, but as for jumpimg at this - .

Patricia · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject:

Line breeding: yes, but you have to know a fair way back and know the individual dogs, no? Thoughts?
I am bringing dogs which " types" I like. ie Keranlouan- De Sous Les Viviers for exemple. I have Lurky right behind Chriss de Sous les Viviers and should have more later on.
My bitch Clochette( I don't show, she is in the French magazine) does have Du Calestray and other dogs I don't know. On the other side, Luron de Kerveillant( which I have seen) son of Ebert- which I have line bred to-
It is difficult not to have Varim or Crak in pedigrees. as well as Indy.
I guess many of the top dogs have these "big"names.
If I want to know something about a dog, I try to call its breeder, that helps too.
For me, I try to also complement on my bitches' s weaknesses on the working side as it is important to me. ie, I used Du Bois Saussin which gives me strong pointing and biddable temperament each time. So, I don't always worry about line breeding if they also complement each other: not just in conformation.
Some dogs seen at the Nationale, where the biggest number of Bretons is present, have the " whoa" factor. It is a matter of taste, we don't always like the same " types". I recall having a discussion with my friend who fell for Lurky( des Sources Claires) whilst I preferred Juan du Sulon. I did not use him as he was" C" hips. But Lambic du Sulon was to die for imo and I went along to his son as the poor dog got ran over by a tractor.
I go back to keranlouan having seen the head types I really like with a strong working stamp.
I don't set out to just look out to line breed unless it is that" special dog" and he is perfect Cool