The Brittany Forum

Patricia · Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject:

Excellent posts and mind stretching. I will give two examples of a useful tool. A Good HPR club. Like minded people, other HPR to compare with.
We are lucky to have the Norfolk and Suffolk. And I am even more lucky to know a GSP commitee member who loves nothing more than to wind me up Wink

give me heaps of advice.
Two people whom I take my hat off to and have joined. One beginner in the trial world and show person originally. Mick Y and Ruby. I won't forget his first grading in spring pointing and the way he threw his wooly hat in the air!! Wink

Now he has a "second" at a field trial. A show bitch who, having seen her work is really biddable and has such a bond with her handler.
The other( very experienced) is Christine M and her Hungarian Visla. She is everywhere with that dog, training days and all. And trials of course...
Then another member of the Brittany Club, Trevor L, having just won "puppy" at the N&S working test with his Brittany. All have made use of the good facilities of the HPR club, 2 are from Essex and it is only once a month. So, no need for land as it is provided. Plus friendship and learning thrown in.

Mugi · Bretonnier Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 1304

I will also add a kind of relevant irrelevance Wink

.

I have a dog with a huge amount of natural talent and he actually does mostly work with me and want to please me (in the field) - he hunts, points, retrieve is soooo much better (and I know I was what messed that up Embarassed

) and he swims really strongly BUT he is blessed with a very novice handler from a gundog work perspective.

Chase and I do well(ish) but I am 110% sure that put him with an experienced handler and he would be well up there.

So how many good brittanys are out there but are not being allowed to show their potential due to novice handlers, handlers who just want a good dog to work with informally and/or alone and have no interest in proving a point.

............. and another point from the perspective of training and organising advanced training days.

For a small club I don't think the BCGB does too bad but there are issues that come down to money, travel, time and the availability of suitable trainers/assisters and it needs more people to offer help and support. Most of us have other committments aside of our dogs and the amount of organisation that even a simple days training needs is amazing when put on top of a job and family. Then we also need to pitch activities at an appropriate level to help people learn and so training can progress the dogs and handlers.

Gill - I have attended one of the WSS Training and/or Working Test events and was really impressed with how well pitched it was to help all with less emphasis on competition and more on helping everyone to get the best from their dog and themselves.

I dread to think how much I have so far spent on Chase and where we are at aged 2.5 but I know I drive at least 250 miles a month for him on average (working/training opportunities not shows) and I will spend between £30 - £200 pounds a month on top of petrol. I also doubt I will ever achieve his full potential from a competition point of view but I am determined to try and enjoy ourselves while we are at it.
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Sue, Chase and the non-Brittany boys - Brice & Piper. Pets first and foremost.

Never forgetting Mugi and Freddy

doganjo · Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject:

Cat among pigeons time - spanner in works.

The title of this thread is 'working dog versus show dog' not 'trial dog versus show dog' To my mind there is a big difference; and there are a great many working dogs and very few show dogs and even less trial dogs.
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Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

Waldo · Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject:

Excuse me but I feel a bit inadequate to really comment, but here goes.
Somehwere in a previous post (this thread) there was comment that 60% of a dogs natural ability comes from the mother, I would have assumed this would be a no-brainer given that the sire in the majority of cases probably has no contact with the pups? Then on that basis, how much if any "training" does the mother do to prepare her pups for a future life before the pups leave (8-10 weeks)? If the mother has a strong work ethic how much of this "skill" is imparted on some small way during obviously a very formative period. So if this mother has no real work experience are the pups missing out on a "early' training experience and hence not getting a head start. Has anyone had experience with hand raised pups where the mother has perhaps died when giving birth.
The only real comment I can make from personal experience is from I took my girl out to a reserve (bush paddock) with my son when she was quite young, I had just purchased a whistle let Annie off for a run and she was quartering quite well and working. I said to my son, watch this trainers can turn their dogs with a blast from the whistle, I blew the whistle and she turned 90 deg, she had never heard that whistle before. I then commented I think they blow it twice for recall, did that and she came straight back. We were both blown away!
We in this country aren't blessed with a wide choice of breeders and sometime have to grab what we can (within reason) and hope for the best, my Annie came from the only litter available at somewhere near the prefered time and was less than 300kms away, next time around and armed with a bit more knowledge and experience I may choose a bit differently but I'm sure most first time gundog owners choose in a similar fashion.
Cheers,
Waldo

Patricia · Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject:

You are right Anne... It is working dogs versas...
Waldo, I recall vividly Mieur marchand of the St Tugen kennel telling me at Crufts: 60% the bitch, 40 the dog. But he was talking genetics.

The Plum · Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject:

doganjo · Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject:

I can only base my opinions on personal experience, and from what I have been told by friends who have bred Brittanys - I have bred 30 puppies. Of that 30, 4 were shown(Freckles, her brother and her two sisters - the brother, Freckles and one sister have also been worked to an extent), 2 were pets, the rest went to either falconers or shooters. I have been assured over the years that the dogs are working. A number of my friends have sold pups to shooters and to falconers.
_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

guy · Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:31 am Post subject:

Do we need a definition of 'working' as I suspect currently one persons idea of 'working' is another's 'messing about'

My idea of working is a dog 'operating to the handler's bidding' That is doing things and not doing things to the handler's command. I am personally very happy to see running an agility course as 'working'. For a 'gundog' snuffling along a hedgerow and pointing a bird or finding and chasing a rabbit are not working but just displaying the natural hunting instincts. It does not make it a Gundog.

As to 'being' a gundog - it is a bit like all Moet et Chandon is champagne but not all champagne is Moet et Chandon. All Gundogs are gundogs but not all gundogs are Gundogs.

As to where are the working dogs? Surely we should not expect to find them on the average UK shoot as a Brittany is not an ideal dog for the beating line. I have only once heard of a Brittany at a shoot, it was owned by one of the guns, he returned it to the breeder as unmanageable. You can imagine the reception I had when Topaz and I turned up. Laughing

We worked on that shoot for a year. Even Barley went on occasion - albeit on a lead all the time.

Whilst i have never seen another Brittany out in the field I do regularly meet people who know of someone who has one, there are meant to be three on a farm not three miles from me, but I have never seen them and I often detour to go past where i think they live.

As to why they are not more popular? I would hazard a guess that most handlers struggle to get their dog to recall when they want them to.
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Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk

Ghilliegumdrop · Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:46 am Post subject:

As Bill knows, my dogs 'work' on a shoot. Ghillie is very often the only dog on the beating/picking up line and I am often asked if she is coming and do I want to come with her.
Having said that I have no intention of trialing either of them.

a. I wouldn't have the time [not having unlimited resources]
b. I don't have either the knowledge nor the inclination to train them to trial standard.
c. I think they are both 'working and show dogs' anyway, not to mention that Merlin is also an agility dog and they both do obedience, well sometimes they do.

There are other Brittanys working around here because Mick Young trials, works and shows his. Also Michael and Pauline used to both work and show their dogs down at Elstead.

And the dog which started this thread ie Sh Ch. Eastonite Tamoshanter, works much more than he is shown and lives over in Northamptonshire.

I do appreciate Bill's argument and agree with him that to keep the working instinct in any gundog breed both parents should show at least a modicom of ability in the job for which it was bred otherwise those instincts will be lost to the breed. What is the point in having a working breed that may look beautiful but when faced with a bird, rabbit or whatever, just ignores it, tears it to pieces or wants to play it Question

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Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!

Patricia · Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:06 am Post subject:

That's right Jan...
We have seen many newcomers at the Club week end do their water retrieve, and retrieve their bird.
So how about a kind of working test with a cold bird for retrieve, maybe find a field to put the dogs through their paces, pointing and firing a small pistol, bit of obedience ? and water if needed? And get a certificate like the TAN?
Would that be too much? ( in France once a dog has proved it can swim, it doesnt not need to do it again) Would all this put people off giving it a go?
And have help available to advise if things go wrong, like a good Trainer sympathetic to novices???